Heresy 21

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Me back again after a week away from both the Internet and ASoIF which was oddly liberating.

Pleased to see a lot of attention being paid again to the Celtic mythology which seems to underpin a lot of what we discuss - well I would say that.

Anyway rather than ping my way through everything I missed I'd like to comment on this business of the nature of wights. They are, overwhelmingly, human, although there have been bears and traditionally the White Walkers ride dead horses. This I think ties in with the christian belief that only humans have souls and I like the suggestion that the bears, horses and ravens carry the souls of dead wargs.

A number of heresies ago we did discuss the theory that the soul remains sleeping with the body until it decomposes into the earth and that when an individual is raised as a wight by Ice or Fire that decay is arrested and the soul is awakened - but bound to whatever purpose it was awakened for. When Thistle "sees" Varamyr, its her soul (the blue light) which sees him. Conversely Varamyr doesn't and indeed can't go into the earth because as a warg he's not bound to his body as ordinary mortals are.

As to the cold business, I like the parallel with liquid nitrogen and suspect that at the very least its at the back of GRRM's mind - with the caveat that a freeze-dried body isn't going anywhere let along moving around with the ease we've seen and its therefore at that point we shift from science (fiction) to magick.

As to cold killing; there are in fact three elements to the fire triangle, one of which is heat. If its too cold a fire will not burn. There's a little bit of a mystery here in the prologue to AGoT because when Will first finds the dead wildlings they appear to have frozen to death, despite the fact that as Ser Waymar points out it isn't cold enough. Yet when Ser Waymar runs into Craster's boys they kill him with their swords rather than freezing him.

Might I suggest you look at this link to Tolkien's idea re: the difference between the soul & body (fëa and hröa)... may have an impact on what is going on in GRRM's mind. I brought this up last week briefly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%ABa_and_hr%C3%B6a

[Black Crow]

Indeed he is. Depending on the reliability of their CIA (Cold Intelligence Agency) a rescue party of white walkers is either heading for the Wall or somewhere near Oldtown :dunno:

Yes... assuming there hasn't been a double switch and that Craster's son is indeed on the Wall, there may indeed be another attempt to lift him - or not. I can't help wonder about Mance's son though; was he spirited away (sorry) just to avoid Mel getting ideas, or is Val up to something?

[Black Crow]

Might I suggest you look at this link to Tolkien's idea re: the difference between the soul & body (fëa and hröa)... may have an impact on what is going on in GRRM's mind. I brought this up last week briefly.

http://en.wikipedia..../Fëa_and_hröa

Yes, I though that was interesting when I went through catching up. There has been a lot od speculation as to the true nature of the White Walkers and whether they are spirits, lost souls or whatever, which would certainly be consistent with a reworking of Tolkiens ideas, but I'm also mindful of GRRM's statement that they're "not dead" (and his professed desire to avoid Elves), which is why I still tend towards Faerie magic of some kind, but hey, all we can do is speculate. We've a pretty good idea now as to where he's getting his ingredients, but the recipe's a different matter entirely.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Yes, I though that was interesting when I went through catching up. There has been a lot od speculation as to the true nature of the White Walkers and whether they are spirits, lost souls or whatever, which would certainly be consistent with a reworking of Tolkiens ideas, but I'm also mindful of GRRM's statement that they're "not dead" (and his professed desire to avoid Elves), which is why I still tend towards Faerie magic of some kind, but hey, all we can do is speculate. We've a pretty good idea now as to where he's getting his ingredients, but the recipe's a different matter entirely.

If you somehow manage to get a hold of History of Middle Earth Volume X "Morgoth's Ring" .... there is a tremendous amount of very specific material on the nature and essence of the 'soul' (fëa) ... how it can forcibly enter another body or object (like a tree, or a family home, something of importance to that person in his corporeal life, etc.) when it's original body dies. Reminded me instantly of Varamyr in the prologue.

For the record, I believe that Melisandre will somehow bring Jon back. Whether this involves a lay-over in wolf form remains to be seen, but seems a likely scenario.... Mel's repeated "You will need me more than you know" statements are really suggestive.

[Eyron]

Ah, my memory is clouded then ... it is known to happen. Someone on line who can provide a quote? I don't have that book at hand.

Back to heresy, back to AGOT and Old Nan :read:

I'll look for it when I'm home again tonight. It was in the cave, I think when they went cave exploring.

Is Ghost really mute though?

Or is that Jon howling? This is right before Bran talks to Jon in Ghost. I've always wondered about this.

I've wondered about that too. Perhaps Ghost is just silent (like Ned "the silent wolf" as per Meera and Jojen) but not mute? So that when Jon is in Ghost he can make sounds? Not that it would help much in the way of communicating though. I think the only one that has claimed to understand "wolf-speak" is Bran, and I don't think that was completey accurate and that he was more sensing their sorrow from the howling.

[nenya~]

If you somehow manage to get a hold of History of Middle Earth Volume X "Morgoth's Ring" .... there is a tremendous amount of very specific material on the nature and essence of the 'soul' (fëa) ... how it can forcibly enter another body or object (like a tree, or a family home, something of importance to that person in his corporeal life, etc.) when it's original body dies. Reminded me instantly of Varamyr in the prologue.

Earlier I said that I thought maybe the wights' souls were binded to their bodies, but I didn't mention that I got that idea from Tolkien. :P

"...and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies." (Silmarillion, Of Beren and Lúthien)

The afterlife of each seem to have it's differences though. In Tolkien's world fea (spirits) are summoned to Mandos, but "the refusal of the summons is in itself a sign of taint" (Morgoth's Ring). But the spirits in Martin's world actually linger (as seen with Varamyr) and the Children believe they "become part of that godhood" (in the weirwoods).

However, binding the will of others is seen as evil. "To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant." We also know that warging into another human is "taboo."

It does seem as if the WW bind the wights to their will. Which made me wonder how the undead and Coldhands were different, but I imagine they may have just willingly went back into their bodies? Afterall, the "kiss" Red Priests gives doesn't always work so it might only work if the spirit is willing to go back into their body. As for Coldhands, I've mentioned in another thread that I thought he might be one of the 79 sentinels. Maybe he was somehow binded to the NW.

"They left their posts in life, so in death their watch goes on forever. Years later, when Lord Ryswell was old and dying, he had himself carried to the Nightfort so he could take the black and stand beside his son. He’d sent him back to the Wall for honor’s sake, but he loved him still, so he came to share his watch.”

Maybe Coldhands is a Ryswell! :laugh:

[7V3N]

In my ACOK re-read, I noticed something with Jon, at the Fist looking out:

Ghost was not like to be alone down there, he thought. Anything could be moving under that sea, creeping toward the ringfort though the dark of the wood, concealed beneath those trees.

For some reason, the metaphor to a sea stuck out to me. Any chance that Patchface was talking about this sea, the Haunted Forest?

Side CP: BR has kept Ghost in perfect condition to be a temporary vassal for Jon's soul. Not growling, howling, etc. only helps keep him unlike a wolf. Ghost has always seemed like a man trapped in a wolf...

[Lord Snows Crow]

There seem to be two different types of wights. Ones that seem to be zombies and attack anything that's alive and ones that are conscience like cold hands. What if having winter in your blood (aka hereditary link to the WW) allows you to be conscience when you are resurrected by the cold and anyone lacking winter in their blood become these ice creatures that hate fire. This doesn't work with a warging theory but it does match with the heresy threads.

[7V3N]

There seem to be two different types of wights. Ones that seem to be zombies and attack anything that's alive and ones that are conscience like cold hands. What if having winter in your blood (aka hereditary link to the WW) allows you to be conscience when you are resurrected by the cold and anyone lacking winter in their blood become these ice creatures that hate fire. This doesn't work with a warging theory but it does match with the heresy threads.

This could fit with the warging. It could be that the Starks' blood gives them a predisposed resistance to being warged, therefore are revived with free will. This would also fit the theory that Benjen is Colhands.

[Lykos]

FanTasy and Eira, I deduced that Bran could speak (more than Hodor) when inside Hodor, but chose not to, to hide the fact he was skinchanging into him from the following quotes.

“Hodor,” Hodor said with every step. “Hodor, hodor.” He wondered what Meera would think if he should suddenly tell her that he loved her.

Dance, Bran II.

Bran only had to smile, do as he was told, and mutter “Hodor” from time to time, and he could follow Meera and Jojen, grinning happily, without anyone suspecting it was really him.

Dance Bran III.

[Black Crow]

Perfectly true and the point here is that Bran is completely taking over Hodor's body. I forget the precise wording but Hodor has a secret place where he goes and hides when Bran comes knocking. This is quite unlike a lot of the other warging we've seen where the host remains in charge and the warg merely sees and experiences what the host sees and experiences.

I'd suspect we've a unique combination of circumstances here with a trained warg powerful enough to dominate the host - and a host susceptible to that domination. Jon may, or may not, be as powerful but he's had no training and indeed shied away from it, while Ghost doesn't strike me as being so weak and submissive as Hodor.

That being said, whether Craster's boys turn up or not, Jon is probably due a visit from the Three-eyed Crow

[Eyron]

FanTasy and Eira, I deduced that Bran could speak (more than Hodor) when inside Hodor, but chose not to, to hide the fact he was skinchanging into him from the following quotes.

Thanks Lykos! I am not yet at home and have no access to the books, but no need now. :)

That is what I thought too, but on the other hand -I don't remember Bran ever trying to say anything other than "hodor" so it's not 100% certain. It would strike me as weird if Bran could not though.

[Eyron]

Perfectly true and the point here is that Bran is completely taking over Hodor's body. I forget the precise wording but Hodor has a secret place where he goes and hides when Bran comes knocking. This is quite unlike a lot of the other warging we've seen where the host remains in charge and the warg merely sees and experiences what the host sees and experiences.

I'd suspect we've a unique combination of circumstances here with a trained warg powerful enough to dominate the host - and a host susceptible to that domination. Jon may, or may not, be as powerful but he's had no training and indeed shied away from it, while Ghost doesn't strike me as being so weak and submissive as Hodor.

That being said, whether Craster's boys turn up or not, Jon is probably due a visit from the Three-eyed Crow

I think you are right, but the bond between Jon and Ghost is very strong and I think initiated by Ghost as for all the Stark kids and their wolf connection seem to be. So, while Ghost is probably stronger than Hodor, I don't think there will be much resistance if Jon tries to take control. I'm not sure but I think the wolves are serving the kids in any way they can. Perhaps it will be more of cooperation than taking complete control though.

And I am almost certain that Jon in a incapacitated state will receive a visit from the crow, just like Jojen and Bran did. I would be very surprised if the opportunity is missed.

[jon rr stark]

'He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold . . .'

Heres an idea. The fourth knife is a white walker blade, so sharp you wouldn't feel it but you would feel the cold from it.

Wick slashed at him again ... - he backed away etc - , his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me.'

Wick been temporally possessed by a white walker

So the others possessed the watch to kill Jon???

Edit : I dont believe it either

[jon rr stark]

Scabbards didn't have safety catches :cool4:

Seriously though it has been speculated that coming out of the relatively warm Shield Hall into the cold night air may have led to condensation forming and freezing on the steel I really don't see that as a plausible explanation given the short time period involved and the protection to the blade offered by the scabbard itself. An unnaturally intense cold might well slow down Jon's reactions, but it didn't seem to be slowing anybody else down to the same degree, so much as I'd like to see Craster's boys breezing into town I fear this has to be down to blood-loss and shock.

I know but I'm sure it has been mentioned that the sword is loosened in its scabbard by some prior to drawing it readying it for removing it quickly. Jon carries his sword in a back scabbard which are only used in movies they are not thought to have been used except perhaps for mongols on horseback possibly so its not historically accurate.

[Black Crow]

I think you are right, but the bond between Jon and Ghost is very strong and I think initiated by Ghost as for all the Stark kids and their wolf connection seem to be. So, while Ghost is probably stronger than Hodor, I don't think there will be much resistance if Jon tries to take control. I'm not sure but I think the wolves are serving the kids in any way they can. Perhaps it will be more of cooperation than taking complete control though.

And I am almost certain that Jon in a incapacitated state will receive a visit from the crow, just like Jojen and Bran did. I would be very surprised if the opportunity is missed.

Co-operation is fine, but it would still leave us with one bark for yes, two barks for no... :cool4:

[Eyron]

Co-operation is fine, but it would still leave us with one bark for yes, two barks for no... :cool4:

Which of course was the heart of the matter that I failed to recognise :lol:

I second this motion. One bark for yes - two barks for no. It's settled.

[Black Crow]

I know but I'm sure it has been mentioned that the sword is loosened in its scabbard by some prior to drawing it readying it for removing it quickly. Jon carries his sword in a back scabbard which are only used in movies they are not thought to have been used except perhaps for mongols on horseback possibly so its not historically accurate.

Not only that but physically very difficult with a straight bladed weapon - and the longer it is the more difficult. Mongol blades were curved and therefore followed the natural rotation of the arm as they were drawn out. Jon never really had a chance if he was trying to draw his sword over his shoulder while already weakened by shock.

[Eyron]

To continue from my last post, I accidentally pressed Post...

Except that wolves don't bark much...

They are very silent, even the pups, apart from some small noises like whimpering. They only growl, snarl and howl and the odd warning bark on occation.

[Black Crow]

I suppose he could always try sticking his paws on an ouija board...