Reading from The World of Ice and Fire

[Ciazio]

Well the report of the reading indicate that the Celtigars do have Valyrian origins, which is why I asked.

Yeah I read it ASAP and know what's written ;-)

Still a crab as a sigil makes me laugh :cool4:

[Francisco Araujo da Costa]

I always thought Bar Emmon sounded Valyrian, or at least Essosi. They are pretty close to Driftmark and Dragonstone and the two-word name doesn't sound like any other in Westeros.

[Dragonfan]

Excellent. That settles it quite satisfactorily, I think.

The fact is the Seventh Kingdom at the time of Aegon's conquest, was the Kingdom of the Iron Isles and the Riverlands. That Kingdom has since split apart, but in such a way that about 90% of the territory and population of this former kingdom now falls under the Tully rule.

SO, if you're going to refer to this Seventh Kingdom, which one will you refer to? The one that constitues 90% of its former contents, or the one left with the 10%?

It's pretty obvious that you're going to refer to the Riverlands as the Seventh Kingdom, not the Iron Isles.

This is backed by the obvious logic that there is no way that Dorne has a lower population than the Iron Isles, and yet Doran clearly stated that Dorne has the lowest population of the Seven Kingdoms. Hence, he must be including the Riverlands as the Seventh Kingdom, and excluding the Iron Isles.

The Kingdoms are: The Kingdom of the North, the Kingdom of Vale and Sky, the Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers, Kingdom of the Rock, Kingdom of the Reach, Kingdom of the Stormlands and Dorne. Dorne was officially added two centuries later.

[Ran]

It's actually the Kingdom of Mountain and Vale, not Vale and Sky.

[protar]

Speaking of which are we ever going to find out who the original kings of mountain and vale are? I think we know the names of all the original royal houses except them.

[Ran]

As in, the first kings of Mountain and Vale? Maybe.

[protar]

As in, the first kings of Mountain and Vale? Maybe.

Yep, those are the ones. The ones which Artys Arryn killed the last of. It'd be good to know more about them, and for that matter all the first men kings.

[tze]

Given GRRM's penchant for having history repeat itself, just with the opposite outcome, it's interesting to compare the situation at Aegon's landing with the situation(s) in Westeros that the various Targs who want to re-conquer Westeros will have to face. A lot of this is of course speculation, but I wonder how history will repeat (and invert) this time around.

A beautiful, vain, but past-her-prime Queen ruling as regent for her young son: Queen Shara of the Vale/Queen Cersei Lannister.

A noble family, centered in the Riverlands, hated by everyone in the Riverlands: Harren the Black/House Frey.

A ruler with ties to the Free Cities, who offered his child in marriage to the Targ who rode the black dragon, was rejected, and seems set to now quite potentially oppose the rider of the black dragon: Argilac the Arrogant/Doran Martell

A king who was killed in the Riverlands, whose brother was serving as Lord Commander of the Watch (yet chose not to head south): Harren the Black/Robb Stark

A king who bent the knee to the Targs after fleeing a battle and being captured en route to his home base (King Loren Lannister): Tricky, this one. Asha Greyjoy? Tyrion Lannister?

A trueborn Stark and his bastard brother, coming South to the Trident to intercept the Targs, who believed they might be able to kill the dragons (but chose not to try). Then, Torrhen Stark and Brandon Snow. If Brandon Snow is in fact that "youth" Bran saw cutting weirwood branches in Winterfell, then that would mean that Brandon Snow was "a youth". Looking at our present-day Starks, it seems like Jon might be our new Torrhen and Bran might be our new Brandon---but with the birth status switched (Jon is the bastard and Bran is trueborn, while Brandon was the bastard and Torrhen was trueborn).

(Though it's also possible that this generation's Torrhen/Brandon are actually Arianne/The Sand Snakes.)

A scary-ass female senior citizen who successfully opposed the Targs: Then, Mariya "Yellow Toad" Martell. Now? It's difficult, given our paucity of terrifying old women among the nobilty of Westeros, but if I had to venture a guess, I'd probably look to Olenna "Queen of Thorns" Tyrell as this generation's Yellow Toad.

A House that died and was replaced by its stewards: then, House Gardener, and now (with its fate inverted), House Stark (via Jeyne Poole). Although it's also possible that this role will end up being fulfilled by House Royce of the Gates of the Moon---House Arryn seems to be on its last legs, and given that the Eyrie is going to be nonoperational throughout winter, the Gates of the Moon seems like it would have to be the primary Arryn seat if/when any Targs come to conquer. The junior branch of House Royce has just been raised to "lordship" of the Gates of the Moon, which as a practical matter, makes them basically "stewards" of the Gates of the Moon while the Arryns reside there in winter.

Aegon Targaryen and his beloved bastard brother Orys Baratheon. Young Griff and Jon Snow? Arianne and the Sand Snakes?

[Fire Eater]

@tze

I like your parallels

With the House Hoare/House Freyy parallel, please let the Freys share the same fate. I also add a few more

A king of the iron islands who sought to conquer more territory only to die violently with no trueborn heirs left behind: Harren/Euron

An alliance between Highgarden and Casterly Rock united against the Targaryens and their dragons

The head of House Targaryen denies an offer of an alliance by Dorne: Aegon I/Danaerys

A handsome Targaryen heir who was considered an enigma, and was a great warrior with friend who became a storm lord and Hand: Aegon I/Rhaegar

[Ciazio]

snip

Well spoken Tze, as always... :bowdown:

Slightly OT.. yesterday I was listening to the second (?) Tyrion's chapter in ADWD, where he and Illiryio travel across the Flat Lands.

The Imp recalls the history of Valyria and many of the free cities and I connected his tales with this SSM, because it says that in Valyria there were about 20 noble families who were dragonlords...

Why there where no dragonlords or dragons in the "soon-to-be-Free Cities" when the Doom happened? Why were they all in Valyria?

How did the dragonlords rule the Free cities? I can't believe they left them to lesser lords without dragons.

[Lord Varys]

I doubt that we can really draw working parallels to characters and situations. No one was banished/exiled from Westeros back then. The only parallels I see is that

- Aenar and Aegon may have gone west due to some prophecy stuff. Daenys foresaw the Doom, but the decision to retreat to Dragonstone instead to, say, Volantis or Lys is tricky.

- Aegon may have conquered Westeros due to some kind of Rhaegarish personality. He may very well have read something about Azor Ahai and the Others, and decided that humanity would be better off if Westeros had a central government, and if the Targaryen dynasty is destined to bring forth Azor Ahai Reborn, it should be the ruling dynasty. Aegon put himself over the existing powers, he did not try to eradicate existing powers, culture, people etc.

- The Targaryen-Baratheon-friendship is remarkable. This hopefully foreshadows some kind of reconciliation between the Stag and the Lion, presumably Stannis-Jon, or Stannis-Dany.

[Gonzalo]

And don't forget that while Freys are powerful in the Riverlands, they are still sworn to Harrenhal

[AzureOwl]

The Imp recalls the history of Valyria and many of the free cities and I connected his tales with this SSM, because it says that in Valyria there were about 20 noble families who were dragonlords...

Why there where no dragonlords or dragons in the "soon-to-be-Free Cities" when the Doom happened? Why were they all in Valyria?

The answer to that may be found in the fact that when Aenar Targaryen moved his family to Drangonstone, it was seen as a sign of weakness.

Maybe all the dragonlords stayed in Valyria the City vying for power, because moving away would be seen as an admission that they weren't strong enough to stay in the game.

How did the dragonlords rule the Free cities? I can't believe they left them to lesser lords without dragons.

While they may have had "Lords", Old Valyria was a Freehold, with more in common with the Roman Republic than with the feudal system of Westeros. Like Rome, the entirety of Valirya's territories and conquests were probably ruled from the capital, with the actual day to day running of the provinces left in the hands of governors appointed by the central authority. Which is a probable reason why the dragonlords tended to play their political games In the capital. Why would they want to waste their time ruling some godsforsaken colony when the true power was in Valyria itself?

Also, we must bear in mind that the dragonlords were not the only game in town. Old Valyria was also strong in sorcery. There's no reason to assume that the control of that sorcery was exclusively in the hands of the dragonlords.

[Fire Eater]

And don't forget that while Freys are powerful in the Riverlands, they are still sworn to Harrenhal

And if the current Lord of Harrenhal and ruler of the riverlands seeks to expand his dominion and if he dies, his house dies with him as he has no heirs to speak of.

[Werthead]

Which is a probable reason why the dragonlords tended to play their political games In the capital. Why would they want to waste their time ruling some godsforsaken colony when the true power was in Valyria itself?

This is reminiscent of what happened in Rome, when troublesome politicians and generals would be offered 'honourable' posts as governors of rich and powerful provinces, but ones that just happened to be hundreds of miles from the capital where they were out of the game. That reminds me of the HBO series Rome, when Caesar tries to get Brutus to go to Greece in Season 1 and then Octavian and Antony dump Lepidus in Africa in Season 2.

Of course, the reverse is also true: sometimes victorious Roman generals on campaign in distant lands would build up automony and independence from Rome, whilst gaining the love of their legions, and then return home with huge armies supporting them. This is pretty much what happened to Caesar in Gaul. So the Valyrians might have been suspicious of sending powerful lords off to Pentos or Tyrosh for fear they might build an independent power-base. The Targaryens settling on a barren rock in the middle of the sea was probably okay with them as there was no huge armies for them to recruit there :)

[Ser Lepus]

The answer to that may be found in the fact that when Aenar Targaryen moved his family to Drangonstone, it was seen as a sign of weakness.

Maybe all the dragonlords stayed in Valyria the City vying for power, because moving away would be seen as an admission that they weren't strong enough to stay in the game.

While they may have had "Lords", Old Valyria was a Freehold, with more in common with the Roman Republic than with the feudal system of Westeros. Like Rome, the entirety of Valirya's territories and conquests were probably ruled from the capital, with the actual day to day running of the provinces left in the hands of governors appointed by the central authority. Which is a probable reason why the dragonlords tended to play their political games In the capital. Why would they want to waste their time ruling some godsforsaken colony when the true power was in Valyria itself?

Also, we must bear in mind that the dragonlords were not the only game in town. Old Valyria was also strong in sorcery. There's no reason to assume that the control of that sorcery was exclusively in the hands of the dragonlords.

This is reminiscent of what happened in Rome, when troublesome politicians and generals would be offered 'honourable' posts as governors of rich and powerful provinces, but ones that just happened to be hundreds of miles from the capital where they were out of the game. That reminds me of the HBO series Rome, when Caesar tries to get Brutus to go to Greece in Season 1 and then Octavian and Antony dump Lepidus in Africa in Season 2.

Of course, the reverse is also true: sometimes victorious Roman generals on campaign in distant lands would build up automony and independence from Rome, whilst gaining the love of their legions, and then return home with huge armies supporting them. This is pretty much what happened to Caesar in Gaul. So the Valyrians might have been suspicious of sending powerful lords off to Pentos or Tyrosh for fear they might build an independent power-base. The Targaryens settling on a barren rock in the middle of the sea was probably okay with them as there was no huge armies for them to recruit there :)

But the dragons were their main weapons; shouldn't they be stationed where they could use to repress the population and crush potential uprisings? It seems unpractical to have all the dragons stay at Valyria and send them out every time they were needed instead of having a few of them stationed at every potentially troublesome province.

[Quentyn Baratheon]

Maybe they fear an attack on valyria proper. When your empire is that big, if you reach your hand to control the lands with your force, you'll weakening your centerbase.

Now granted, they just look too powerful the way they are presented, with dragons and all, so that dosen't make a lot of sense.

Did the Rhoyanr had something to oppose to them? They were the last enemy to go IIRC.

[The Dragon has three heads]

In sure the freehold made an example of someone(ie Carthage) and that was that for uprisings.

[AzureOwl]

But the dragons were their main weapons; shouldn't they be stationed where they could use to repress the population and crush potiential uprisings? It seems unpractical to have all the dragons stay at Valyria and send them out every time they were needed instead of having a few of them stationed at every potentially troublesome province.

The dragons were a terrible and powerful weapon, but by the time of the Doom, their main function was probably as deterrent. There was no need for the dragons to be stationed in every province when the threat of dragons was enough to keep the provinces in line. After what happened to the Rhoynar I'd be very surprised if anyone even contemplated the possibility of revolt. A similar thing happened inWesteros as far as we know. All the dragons were kept in King's Landing, and all the lords knew that if it became necessary the Targaryens could fly to the hotspot pretty fast.

Another point to consider is that the Valyrian made extensive use of slaves, very close to home (mining the 14 Flames for example). If the slave to freeholder ratio in Old Valryria was anything like that of Volantis, the Valryrians may have been more afraid of a slave uprising withing walking distance of the capital than they were of a provincial revolt that they could put down at their leisure.

In sure the freehold made an example of someone(ie Carthage) and that was that for uprisings.

The destruction of the Rhoynar probably served that function. Perhaps that's the reason they left standing the ruins of Chroyane, Sar Mell, Ny Sar, etc. As warnings.

[Barty]

During the conquest the seven Kingdoms were :

1) The North - ruled by Torrhen Stark who had a bastard brother (Brandon Snow)

2) The Vale - ruled basically by a young Arynn boy and his mother(who is considered to be extremely beautiful)

3) The Riverlands - ruled by the Iron born who are universally despised in that region

4) Stormlands - ruled by Argillac the Arrogant

5) Lannisters - ruled by King Loren Lannister

6) Reach - ruled by Meryn Gardener

7) Dorne - ruled by the Yellow Toad who was either too fat or too old or too sick to move much.

I think by the time Danny lands in westeros the state(rulers wise) will be incredibly similar to the one when Aegon lands.

1)The North will be ruled by Rickon Stark - who will have a bastard brother in Jon Snow

2) The vale will be ruled by Sansa(considered to be amazingly beautiful) and Robert Arynn(the young Arynn boy)

3) The riverlands will be ruled by the Freys who are universally despised in that region

4) The stormlands will be ruled by either Stannis or Aegon - both of whom don't seem the type to bend the knee to Danny and would rather die fighting like Argillac did. Stannis suits better here since he is also continued by only a daughter.

5) Lannisters will be ruled by some random lannister(whoever is left)

6) Reach will be ruled by Mace Tyrell

7) Dorne will be ruled by Doran Martell who is too old and gouty to move(much like the toad)

During the conquest the Lannisters and Tyrells had formed an alliance - Currently as well the Lannisters and Tyrells are in an alliance and will probably fight Danny together.

The Young Arynn boy during the conquest(Ronnel Arynn) wanted to fly and in the end he did get a dragon ride - Robert Arynn also has shown that he has some fascination with flying("I want to see him fly")

The line of Harren the Black was ended - which seems to be the fate waiting for the Freys. The Riverlords rose up against their overlords during the conquest - something which they are itching to do now as well.

A possibility is also there that Shireen will marry Edric Storm - she has been shown to be fond of him(like the daughter of Argillac also married a bastard). Or maybe Shireen will marry FAegon who is a targ bastard just like Orys Baratheon