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Francisco Araujo da Costa

Reading from The World of Ice and Fire

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Aegon said to Harren "When the sun sets, your line shall end." I think Aegon may have inherited the gift for prophecy like his forebear Daenys the Dreamer. Aegon was described as an enigma, with only one close friend, and he was a great warrior. He sounds a lot like Rhaegar.

He might have been a "dreamer" or prophet, but I think he didn't say "at sunset your line will end" because he dreamed about it.

He was camped outside the castle with an army and a giant angry dragon. That was a threat, not a prophecy ;)

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Thank you Trebla, for the detailed report. I just love those things.

Just one question: is it possible that Jon Wooten of Maidenpool is a Jon Mooton?

He replied no, that will eventually make it into the Dunk and Egg stories. In the Worldbook the story of Maekar's death would be a SPOILER!!!

I wonder how the events of the last century will be covered, as it will spoil the D&E novellas. Not only Maekar's death, but the Great Council, the later Blackfyre Rebellions, Bloodraven's fall, Summerhall... It'll be impossible to attempt to write about those years' history without spoilers. I suppose that we'l only have information about the first years of Targaryen rule.

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Dondarrion is close to Durrendon. First Men name? (I'm starving of anything specifics about the Stormlands)

Would have never suspected the history of House Celtigar and House Massey in regards to the Targs, especially in the Conquest. Very nice.

The part with the little Arryn is a nice touch.

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I wonder how the events of the last century will be covered, as it will spoil the D&E novellas. Not only Maekar's death, but the Great Council, the later Blackfyre Rebellions, Bloodraven's fall, Summerhall... It'll be impossible to attempt to write about those years' history without spoilers. I suppose that we'l only have information about the first years of Targaryen rule.

Yeah, I was curious to all that as well. Some of the BwB talked quite a bit about Bloodraven's time in the Black Cells and his eventual move to the Wall. I got the impression listening to GRRM preview the book that some of the narratives might be quite unreliable. So it's possible that certain events could be whitewashed or even ommited. We've speculated here for quite some time that the Citadel's motives have been rather suspect.

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I guess we are in for some surprises down the road, if Aegon, and his motivation to conquer Westeros in the first place, will ever be addressed in the series. And it's really striking to see that the dragons apparently relied heavily on the stags, and that they are pretty fucked without them. One really has to hope that there will be some kind reconciliation between Aegon/Dany and Stannis/Shireen.

And I guess Justin Massey is going to become much more important than we thought he would be.

As to the Targaryen background:

Any hints about the ruling Valyrian houses? How did the other Targaryen dragons die which were brought to Dragonstone by Aenar and his children? Was there infighting among the family, or did Volantenes or other remnants of the Valyrian Freehold try to take over Dragonstone?

Was the Dragonstone stronghold built by Aenar, or much earlier?

Was Orys Baratheon born with that name? Did GRRM mention if he was the son of Aegon's mother or the son of Aegon's father?

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It has been thrown out that Brandon Snow was the one Bran saw in ADWD fletching arrows from Winterfell's heart tree. ^_^

Absolutely! There is always something happening when Starks have Brandons around... :D

Still,there is room for speculation - was he acting under maesters' knowledge,or is there more than one source to this magical knowledge - indeed,there is no reason for a Westerosi,yet alone reclusive North to have knowledge on dragons!

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"12 years before the Doom of Valyria, Aenar (Aenar the Exile) Targaryen relocated his family to Dragonstone.

His daughter, Daenys the Dreamer, foresaw the Doom by fire."

Dammit! The "targaryen special race" feeling is back. I hoped a little history would shake dany for good but no. Oh well......

Would have never suspected House Celtigar would be that important wow. Nothing says if Velaryons were here before the targs....

The whole start of the Conquest is a big lol moment.

ETA: Don't bother, I didn't notice a thread chatting about that.

The second most satisfying part of this reading to me - after the revelation of Torhenn's 30,000 strong army that marched South of the Neck - was that the Targaryens were a rather minor noble family in Valyria.

They were the poor cousins of the more powerful Valyrian noble families, so to speak. They were basically looked down upon by the higher level Valyrian nobles.

I really enjoyed that tidbit.

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I've tweaked Trebla's report with a couple of corrections, here. The text says two score houses, not two great houses, vied with one another. The Targaryens were one of those two score, but not counted among the greatest of them.

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Daenys or Daenerys ?

Also,were there any physical descriptions? - Was Orys Valyrian in appearance?

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Something else I found interesting is that the Dragons aren't exactly used in battle as I expected.

I thought they just floated above a battlefield and roasted all the soldiers alive with direct flame attacks.

It turns out that this is apparently not quite as effective as one would have thought. Instead, Aegon is shown relying on weather and environmental conditions such as lots of long, dry grass, and then setting the grass on fire and using the smoke and approaching fire to do damage to the armies.

That is a very convoluted approach, in my mind, if instead you could just float above and erase ranks of soldiers with a roving flamethrower.

Similarly, I find it interesting that Aegon had to land inside Harrenhal to start flaming the castle.

The above suggests to me - and I'm open to correction - that a Dragon's flame range is maybe not great enough to keep him out of arrow range from below. Hence a Dragon would seem to need to approach close enough to be vulnerable to attack before he can unleash his flames on an army.

Hence the need to first set the grass on fire and use that as an indirect weapon against the army, and maybe using the smoke to provide cover for the dragon when he swoops in for a flame attack before fleeing to safer heights again.

Similarly, why else land in Harrenhal and expose your dragon to danger, if you could just float high above and rain fire down on the keep?

It would therefore seem to me that a dragon's flame range is more in the order of 100 yards, rather than 500 yards or more, which would have made all of these elaborate tactics unnecessary.

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I'm thinking the size of the Dragon would also count but with the description given in the book and again on tv - I pictured all three dragons attacking from above and melting the towers down.

Maybe GRRMs just saving those details for later :drunk:

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If I'm not mistaken, we always assumed that the Targaryens were only one of many Valyrian noble families that vied for the control of the Freehold, it was never a consensus that they were the most powerful Valyria house before the Doom struck.

Effectively, Aenar and Daenys seem to be GRRM's version Aeneas and Cassandra. They got away before Valyria fell, but back then they were ridiculed.

I'm actually quite surprised that Aenar Targaryen ended up being directly related to our Targaryens. Back during AFfC I considered the Reader's reference to Daenys's prophecies just as a line to characterize Rodrik as a bloodless scholar.

Considering that Egg mentioned in TMK that Aerys I read about the return of the dragons in some scroll he found, it might very well be that Aenar, Aegon, and in the end Egg and Rhaegar ended up believing that they really had to fulfill some kind of mission in Westeros. Yes, as of yet it's only confirmed that the Targaryens went to Dragonstone to avoid the Doom, not that Aegon ended up conquering Westeros because he believed this was his duty, but things start to point in that direction.

Aegon really seems to have been the kind of guy Rhaegar was (which is quite interesting, since later generations seemed to paint Aegon I as a not-so-bright-warrior-king - at least, that's the impression we get from the Blackfyre Rebellion during TSS and TMK, where Daemon is seen as Aegon Come Again).

And since Aegon seemed to have had only one close friend, it's very possible that no one outside the family ever learned what this whole Conquest-thing was ever about. And I guess whatever lore was passed down the line was lost/forgotten during the Dance of Dragons. Aegon III and Viserys II were only children, as were Aegon's II daughter (I suppose), and I'm quite sure their parents would not have spoken to them about the mystical family secrets.

The post-dragon Targaryens apparently had to regain not only the dragons, but also the knowledge about their own past (assuming that there was any secret behind it).

By the way, is it known if Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys had surviving cousins or any younger siblings?

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Some more thoughts:

  • One of the biggest mysteries is still unexplained: why did Aegon became the leader of the Conquest when according to Valyrian law Visenya (as the eldest sibling) should have been the head of the Targaryen family? All the Targaryens that ruled as lords of Dragonstone before Aegon were males. It could be that they just got a long streak of male firstborns, but chances are that Targs converted to male primogeniture once they left Valyria. If so, this makes Rhaenyra's claim in the Dance of Dragons much, much weaker.
  • I'd like to know about how House Velaryon survived the doom, too. Were they somehow tied with the Targaryens and followed them to the exile? Were they the wardens of the Freehold's western border at the Dragonstone castle beforehand?
  • I'm disappointed we haven't got a mention of House Qoherys. With this Valyrian sounding name and since they were granted Harrenhal after Harren, I was sure they had been prominent supporters in the conquest.
  • I wonder now if the Celtigars and Masseys are of Valyrian origins too, as they were honored in Aegon's first small council. I tend to think that they weren't, but they came under Targaryen rule early on expecting better treatment than under the Durrendons or the Arryns.
  • It's weird that during the battle of the Last Storm Visenya was riding Meraxes, and not Vhagar. Could it be a confusion?
  • Another think that may be clarified in the future is how to reconcile "Rosby and Stokeworth and the castles surrendered without bloodshed. Darklyn of Duskendale and Mooton of Maidenpool did fight." with Jon Mooton being "the first lord to come over".
  • We now know the name of all the last kings of the Seven Kingdoms: Torrhen Stark "the King Who Knelt", Meryn Gardener, Lorren Lannister, Argilac Durrendon "the Arrogant", Harren Hoare "the Black", Ronnel Arryn and Mirram Martell "the Yellow Toad of Dorne".
  • Aegon's was only 27 when he started the conquest, and 64 when he died. It'd be really interesting to know what happened in the late part of his reign, with the competition between Rhaenys/Aenys and Visenya/Maegor.
  • I would like to know at which point of his reign Aegon created the Kingsguard, and who where their first members. And when the post of Master of Whisperers was included in the Council.

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Some more thoughts:

  • One of the biggest mysteries is still unexplained: why did Aegon became the leader of the Conquest when according to Valyrian law Visenya (as the eldest sibling) should have been the head of the Targaryen family? All the Targaryens that ruled as lords of Dragonstone before Aegon were males. It could be that they just got a long streak of male firstborns, but chances are that Targs converted to male primogeniture once they left Valyria. If so, this makes Rhaenyra's claim in the Dance of Dragons much, much weaker.
  • I'd like to know about how House Velaryon survived the doom, too. Were they somehow tied with the Targaryens and followed them to the exile? Were they the wardens of the Freehold's western border at the Dragonstone castle beforehand?

Interesting questions, the first though....... it bugs me.

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