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Francisco Araujo da Costa

Reading from The World of Ice and Fire

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1-2. It wasn't murder but he still killed her father then took his lands. I have hard time imagining that courtesy would brush that under the rug.

1-2. He gave her that courtesy before he took Argilac's lands and keep.

That doesn't make it impossible that she actually managed to love or grow fond of him in their years of marriage.

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1-2. He gave her that courtesy before he took Argilac's lands and keep.

That doesn't make it impossible that she actually managed to love or grow fond of him in their years of marriage.

Her father had already lost at that point and it seems that her men were already willing to surrender.

It's not impossible but I see it as less likely that someone in that position would be able to overlook the foundation of their relationship

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Her father had already lost at that point and it seems that her men were already willing to surrender.

It's not impossible but I see it as less likely that someone in that position would be able to overlook the foundation of their relationship

We don't really know anything about other than her father was called "The Arrogant" and had just nearly destroyed her house. As someone tells Robb Stark in ASoS, some children really don't care for their fathers. Maybe Argella was less filial than Harrion Karstark.

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We don't really know anything about other than her father was called "The Arrogant" and had just nearly destroyed her house. As someone tells Robb Stark in ASoS, some children really don't care for their fathers. Maybe Argella was less filial than Harrion Karstark.

Like her father, she seemed to want to defy him initially but then had no choice because she was betrayed.

I would say that Argella hating her father would make the story more convenient.

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Speaking about the unreliable narrators, this chronicle of the conquest was written by maester? How could the writer know things like 'Aegon spent 10 nights with Rhaenys for every one with Visenya'? Did he have a voyeur link or something?

The statement can't be taken literally, of course, but rather merely indicating that he was much more attracted to Rhaenys than to Visenya.

The question I want to ask is if there were maesters in dragonstone before the conquest?

Sure, why not?

Like her father, she seemed to want to defy him initially but then had no choice because she was betrayed.

Maybe she wanted power for herself.

I would say that Argella hating her father would make the story more convenient.

No more than having a King called Argilac the Arrogant and another Harren the Black.

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Maybe she wanted power for herself.

No more than having a King called Argilac the Arrogant and another Harren the Black.

It depends. Was she the heir? She may have wanted what was rightfully hers.

I can't base the nature of their relationship based on the name. She may have been an Argilac in training for all we know.

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The fact that the garrison didn't just turn her over---they stripped and chained her---has to be relevant. Either they themselves had the wacky idea to do this, or the Targ contingent secretly told them to do this and then did their best to keep that part out of the history books cause they didn't want future Baratheons feeling the Targaryens had dishonored their mother/grandmother/etc. If the garrison did this on their own, then that might say something about Argella's personality and the feelings the garrison had toward her.

Argilac cut off an envoy's hands at the mere idea of Argella marrying Orys, and who knows how Argella herself felt about the marriage proposal. The fact that she was delivered to Orys naked, given what happened when Orys was previously proposed as a suitor, seems pretty relevant. The whole scenario might have been designed to let Orys play the chivalrous hero---given what he'd done to her father, he might have thought he needed some way to get Argella on his side (and emphasize that she needed him and couldn't maintain power in the Stormlands in her own right). Though it's also possible that Orys wanted this to happen to her merely as punishment, either because she had actually spurned him in the past or because Argilac's death alone hadn't salved Orys's wounded pride.

(Though I'd wonder how many (if any) members of that garrison Orys kept on at Storm's End after marrying Argella---life in Storm's End could've been really awkward, if you think about it.)

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(Though I'd wonder how many (if any) members of that garrison Orys kept on at Storm's End after marrying Argella---life in Storm's End could've been really awkward, if you think about it.)

Or he did what a lot of nobles would and killed them all even if they helped him.

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Speaking about the unreliable narrators, this chronicle of the conquest was written by maester? How could the writer know things like 'Aegon spent 10 nights with Rhaenys for every one with Visenya'? Did he have a voyeur link or something?

No, not voyeur link... if Rhaenys and Visenya had separate bedrooms. What the historian knew was where Aegon spent his nights... not precisely what Aegon and Rhaenys did in bed.

Both Jaime and Jonothor heard enough through the bedroom door of Aerys and Rhaella. They as Kingsguard were sworn to keep his secrets (were they sworn to Aegon alone like Aerys´ guard was, or were they treating his wives/dragonriders as coregents?). But in case of Rhaella, the maids too noticed her in the morning - and they were not sworn to keep secrets like Kingsguard was. Thus, the sundry servants of Aegon could easily have taken note of where he slept - and gossiped about it to the historians.

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I am especially curious about Dorne... What was up with that? Do they know something we don't, about fighting Targs? Why on Earth wasn't it permanently conquered in the end? Is this information in other companion books?

Yeah, maybe Argella couldn't stand her father. Maybe she and Orys bonded when he let her dip her guards in tar and set them on fire. Personally, I can just imagine this romance.

"Yaay! Old goat is dead, now I am the queen! I can finally wear make up and set people on fire... Wait, what? I will kill them all! ... Hi, it's more than a little awkward... What, I *can* kill them all?! Cool! What, you can ask your brother to roast them from his dragon? Yaaay! (There is something about this guy... I never felt this way before. And purple eyes are so dreamy.)"

Hey, there are all kinds of people with all kinds of weird characters.

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There's a whole lengthy sidebar dedicated to the First Dornish War that explains all. But Martin has previously stated why the Dornish weren't conquered by Aegon: they learned from Harrenhal that hiding in castles didn't work, and they learned from the Last Storm and the Field of Fire that direct battle wasn't so smart, either. So they found other ways to fight.

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There's a whole lengthy sidebar dedicated to the First Dornish War that explains all. But Martin has previously stated why the Dornish weren't conquered by Aegon: they learned from Harrenhal that hiding in castles didn't work, and they learned from the Last Storm and the Field of Fire that direct battle wasn't so smart, either. So they found other ways to fight.

Does Martin say why the North wasn't willing to do the same? Are they not as fierce as the Dornish or what?

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On Cracklaw Point and Visenya:

Since we now know that the Celtigars are a Valyrian House (and apparently vassals of House Targaryen which came as retainers with them into the west), this can cause some trouble. Nimble Dick told us that Visenya Targaryen won Cracklaw Point for House Targaryen by promising them that they would be directly sworn to House Targaryen. The Celtigars of Claw Isle were one of the noble houses who claimed Cracklaw Point for themselves (the Darklyns were the other house).

So, where the Celtigars at Claw Isle long before the Targaryens arrived? Only then they would have had time enough to develop the notion that Crackclaw Point belonged to them. If so, why would Visenya Targaryen take away a not so small portion of land from one of House Targaryen's earliest allies?

In my opinion, this makes little sense since Nimble Dick's tale strongly implies that those wars with the Celtigars go back a very long time...

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In my opinion, this makes little sense since Nimble Dick's tale strongly implies that those wars with the Celtigars go back a very long time...

Might be that the Celtigars where there long before the Targaryens arrived. IIRC Dragonstone was built 200 years before the Doom and the Targs came only 12 before.

So the Celtigars could have had 188 years of quarrels with the Darklyns before the Targs arrival.

Or, maybe... Nimble Dick could be just what he seems to be: an unreliable narrator.

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Well, I doubt he made up the stories about the Celtigar tax collectors that tend to disappear when setting foot on the Point.

If that's something that still happens, the whole thing makes even less sense. If the Celtigars are a Valyrian House which came to Claw Isle when Dragonstone was made a Valyrian outpost 200 years before the Doom, there claim to Crackclaw Point is not that old - 150-100 years, in my opinion (to think you have a claim you have first to try to conquer said region, or marry into a major house). The Targaryens ruled for nearly three centuries afterwards, and surely Visenya Targaryen's word was much more powerful than Celtigar ambition. The Ironborn no longer claimed the Riverlands after the Conquest, so subsequent Celtigars should have dropped any claim to Crackclaw Point as well. Especially since the Targaryens had dragons for about 150 years to enforce their laws.

The fact that the people of Crackclaw Point are still stalwart Targaryen loyalists strongly suggest that the Iron Throne made due of Visenya's promise.

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Well, I doubt he made up the stories about the Celtigar tax collectors that tend to disappear when setting foot on the Point.

Does he say it's something that happens nowadays? I can't remember :-(

Anyway, Dick is a mercenary, not a scholar. He might have heard wrong stories and old tales like the ones about the "talking heads" and the "mud monsters"...

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Yes, he indicates that the northmen were more used to the yoke of slavery, and that the vision of the last weirwoods being burned up by dragons unmanned them...

:P

No, he doesn't remark on it. You can draw your own conclusions.

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Yes, he indicates that the northmen were more used to the yoke of slavery, and that the vision of the last weirwoods being burned up by dragons unmanned them...

:P

No, he doesn't remark on it. You can draw your own conclusions.

Sigh.

I get the distinct impression from your posts lately that you are extracting a small measure of enjoyment from pointing out to me that the Northmen are nothing special, and are in fact just run-of-the-mill Westerosi that just happen to live a little further North than the rest of their mediocre brethren.

I cry foul, Elio. :box:

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Sigh.

I get the distinct impression from your posts lately that you are extracting a small measure of enjoyment from pointing out to me that the Northmen are nothing special, and are in fact just run-of-the-mill Westerosi that just happen to live a little further North than the rest of their mediocre brethren.

I cry foul, Elio. :box:

Remember, GRRM has stated like a thousand times that nobody is the "hero" of the tale. The northmen aren't a race of naturally brave and virtuous men intrinsically better that the southorns.

Also, if you think that your afterlife is somewhat dependant on the weirwoods, you will care if they burn.

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Remember, GRRM has stated like a thousand times that nobody is the "hero" of the tale. The northmen aren't a race of naturally brave and virtuous men intrinsically better that the southorns.

Also, if you think that your afterlife is somewhat dependant on the weirwoods, you will care if they burn.

It's not about being the heroes. It's about being different. The North making blood sacrifices to their Heart Trees doesn't make them heroes, but it sure as hell makes them unique.

Similarly, the Northmen being harsher and less merciful doesn't make them the heroes, but it makes them stand out for their unique characteristics.

Anyway, that's a different discussion, for another day.

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