Reading from The World of Ice and Fire

[The hairy bear]

I've always thought that trying to identify seven actual kingdoms in the present "seven kingdoms" is a futile endeavour. It doesn't work that way. It's just a name from the past that stuck even if it no longer corresponds to reality, becouse it's not seven and they're not kingdoms.

It's like trying to find where's Rome in Romania. Or wondering why Austria (Eastern kingdom) is called like this by Ukranians when it's no longer a kingdom, and it's in their west.

[Free Northman]

I've always thought that trying to identify seven actual kingdoms in the present "seven kingdoms" is a futile endeavour. It doesn't work that way. It's just a name from the past that stuck even if it no longer corresponds to reality, becouse it's not seven and they're not kingdoms.

It's like trying to find where's Rome in Romania. Or wondering why Austria (Eastern kingdom) is called like this by Ukranians when it's no longer a kingdom, and it's in their west.

The point is, Doran referred to the Seven Kingdoms when talking to Arriane about Dorne's strength. Hence, since he ranked Dorne in the context of the Seven Kingdoms today, it must be seven current kingdoms that he is referring to.

[Lord Varys]

There were Seven Kingdoms back during the time of the Conquest. The Riverlands and the Iron Islands were one kingdom, not two. The later Crownlands were part of the original Targaryen vassals (Celtigar and Velaryon), and the kingdom of Harren the Black (the Stokeworths, Rosbys, and Darklyns). I guess some subjects of the Storm King belonged to them as well, but we don't know who. The border between Harren's and Argilac's kingdom seem to have been the Blackwater, and Aegon started his Conquest by invading Harren's lands, not Argilac's.

The Crownlands never existed as an 'independent kingdom', at least not in the fashion Aegon created them (we don't know who ruled Duskendale, Crackclaw Point etc. during the centuries before the Conquest).

After the Conquest, the 'Seven Kingdoms of Westeros' became the North, the Vale of Arryn, the Westerlands, the Riverlands, the Reach, the Stormlands, and Dorne. The Iron Islands were never considered to be a kingdom after the Conquest. Aegon conquered six of the Seven Kingdoms, so it would make no sense to make the Isles and the Riverlands two 'kingdoms' after they ceased to exist as an independent political entity.

By the way, thinking about the size of the Lannister-Gardener-host, the fact that the Conquest of Oldtown seemed to have been still an issue after the Field of Fire, my guess is that House Hightower did not support Mern IX Gardener in his war against the Targaryens. And this would really take away a good quarter of the strength of the Reach, perhaps even more. If all Hightower vassals fought indeed with Mern on the Field of Fire with their full strength, the Conquest of Oldtown would just have been a footnote. Instead, we are given the impression that Lord Hightower (and the High Septon!) still have the numbers to try to oppose Aegon and his sisters. They would not have had to think about this if the streets of Oldtown had been more or less empty...

[The hairy bear]

The point is, Doran referred to the Seven Kingdoms when talking to Arriane about Dorne's strength. Hence, since he ranked Dorne in the context of the Seven Kingdoms today, it must be seven current kingdoms that he is referring to.

It's a manner of speaking. You are being too literal. :)

"Dorne is the least populous of the Seven Kingdoms" is just short for "Dorne is the least populous of the former Seven Kingdoms", or "Dorne is the least populous of the lordships directly sworn to the Iron Throne".

[Free Northman]

It's a manner of speaking. You are being too literal. :)

So if he was not being literal, who was he comparing Dorne's population to?

[Werthead]

This is a discussion we've had dozens of times and the outcome is always the same: there is no official hierarchy or ranking of the Great Houses that allows you reduce them to seven in the present or six immediately after Aegon's conquest. The name 'Seven Kingdoms' refers to the number of kingdoms extant in Westeros when Aegon invaded and nothing more, regardless of what happened afterwards.

In the present, there are eight Great Houses: Arryn, Baratheon, Greyjoy, Lannister, Martell, Stark, Tully, Tyrell. Each house commands one of the eight great administrative regions of Westeros: the Vale, Stormlands, the Iron Islands, the Westerlands, Dorne, the North, the Riverlands and the Reach. The Crownlands is directly ruled by the crown and can be considered Westeros's version of the District of Columbia: its own entity but not its own semi-autonomous state, like the rest.

The reason for them being called seven is that there were seven kingdoms when Aegon invaded, and he ended up conquering seven kingdoms (albeit by failing to conquer Dorne and splitting the Riverlands and Iron Islands apart from one another). Later, when Dorne joined, they clearly decided to keep the name, presumably in honour of the seven gods, irregardless of the fact that it was no longer accurate.

Of the Great Houses the Greyjoys were always considered the least important: they had the smallest lands and the smallest population, they never ruled as kings, they considered themselves a separate ethnic group, followed a different religion and apparently never played a major role in mainland affairs. We almost never hear about the Greyjoys or their vassals interacting with the mainlanders between Aegon's invasion and the Greyjoy Rebellion, save only the period of ironborn raiding during the Dunk and Egg stories. We don't know what role they played in the Dance of Dragons or Blackfyre Rebellion (I suspect none at all).

Despite all of that, the Greyjoys were always considered a Great House under the Targaryens, equal in authority to the others (if not equal in temporal/military power). They were never ruled by or under the authority of the North, the Riverlands or the Westerlands. They were always a semi-autonomous region like any of the others and equal in rank to them.

The only thing the goblet proves is the prejudices of King's Landing goblet-makers ;)

So if he was not being literal, who was he comparing Dorne's population to?

Doran was talking about land armies and the strength of forces in a field battle. The ironborn effectively have zero land armies and zero strength of arms in a field engagement. Their power comes from their ships alone and, since Dorne's rocky coast renders it almost impervious to ironborn-style raids (as per AFFC), the Dornish have almost no reason to fear them or even think of them. Doran simply did not consider the ironborn worth including in the discussion, if he thought of them at all.

[Lord Varys]

Wert,

apparently Aegon declared himself 'Lord of the Seven Kingdoms' (referring to all the kingdoms before the Conquest) and 'King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men' before the actually conquest. Meaning that the Targaryens considered themselves the rulers of Dorne during the two centuries political reality and the Dornishmen still defied them. Dorne was the seventh kingdom in 'Lord of the Seven Kingdoms' just as the Rhoynar very much meant the Rhoynar living in Dorne!

That's not unheard of. Titles are just words, and words are wind ;-).

The Seven Kingdoms were always the Seven Kingdoms pre-conquest, and they have nothing to do with the Great Houses of Westeros. Especially since there are other differences as well. We have the four Wardens, who command some of the fellow great lords, and there are some houses who are de iure not sworn directly to the Iron Throne (the Hightowers, the Sunderlands) but who are de facto as independent as the Great Houses sworn directly to the Iron Throne.

[jblair]

The Big Ten is, and always will be, the Big Ten. Even if there are really Twelve.

[Gonzalo]

Even though this discussion is kind of off-topic. Doran employs the term "Seven Kingdoms" as a synonymous of "Westeros". And the Seven Kingdoms, as pointed out repeatedly, are:

- the North

- the Isles and the Riverlands (a single kingdom that was divided into two administrative regions)

- the Vale

- The Rock/Westerlands

- the Reach

- The Stormlands

- Dorne

[Fire Eater]

King (later Lord) Ronnel Arryn did get his dragon ride, but what about that bit when Dany says no dragon can have two riders?

Is there a loophole in that a dragon will allow another to ride it only if the true rider of the dragon is riding it at the same time being the one steering it and the other person being merely a passenger allowed by the rider?

[Barty]

King (later Lord) Ronnel Arryn did get his dragon ride, but what about that bit when Dany says no dragon can have two riders?

Is there a loophole in that a dragon will allow another to ride it only if the true rider of the dragon is riding it at the same time being the one steering it and the other person being merely a passenger allowed by the rider?

Maybe he wasn't riding the dragon - but was carried by visenya when she was riding(he's only a baby). So he was not directly riding the dragon. And Danny knows next to shit about dragons.

[Jaak]

King (later Lord) Ronnel Arryn did get his dragon ride, but what about that bit when Dany says no dragon can have two riders?

To the contrary. It was said that a dragon could have had several riders, Balerion had several over its two centuries of lifespan - but no one ever rode two dragons.

Wonder who rode the 5 Targaryen dragons when they moved to Dragonstone.

[Free Northman]

Maybe he wasn't riding the dragon - but was carried by visenya when she was riding(he's only a baby). So he was not directly riding the dragon. And Danny knows next to shit about dragons.

I think people are completely misreading this.

A Dragon's rider is the person able to control it. Meaning the Dragon's master. If that master wants it to carry 10 extra people on its back at the same time, that's irrelevant. Those people just can't control the dragon. So there can be no co-pilot, in case the pilot gets a heart attack or something.

And besides, a dragon can have many masters over its lifetime. But a master can only have one dragon. Else Balerion could never be flown once Aegon died, and yet Balerion hung around for about 200 years in total. So someone else must have flown him before and after Aegon.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The point about dragonriders would seem to be that a dragon forms a bond with a particular rider until one or the other dies. A dragon can only bond with one rider, and a rider can only bond with one dragon. Dragons aren't like horses in a stable that can be ridden interchangeablyby any dragonrider.

As long as a dragon's particular bonded rider is on board and in control, any other non-dragonrider would be considered baggage by the dragon. Weight restrictions would apply, of course. Exceeding a given dragon's maximum rated take-off weight would incur heavy fines from the Valyrian Aviation Administration. (Valyria may be no more, but everyone knows it's impossible to kill a bureaucracy. It rises again, stronger than before.)

[Lord Varys]

We only know that a dragonlord who has forged a bond to a dragon cannot ride another. Meaning that Dany is not going to ride Viserion or Rhaegal ever. I guess this has to do with the dragon in question somehow feeling/smelling that the person who tries to ride has already made a connection to a different dragon.

But dragons can have multiple riders. Balerion had riders before and after Aegon died. Just as Vhagar had (we know Queen Visenya Targaryen, and Prince Aemond Targaryen). In most cases, a dragon would be chosen by its new rider after the old rider died. But I'm not sure if this has to be the case. It might very well be possible for someone to steal a dragon from a dragonrider while said dragonrider is still alive. And I'm quite sure that this is going to happen in the series in the near future. We might very well get a scenario of a dragon caught between two dragonriders.

As to Ronnel Arryn's flight on Vhagar's back: No one ever stated that a dragonlord could not force his animal to tolerate whoever he wanted to take with him on dragonback. And apparently that's the case. What we know of the dragons of the Targaryen siblings strongly suggests that they were big enough to take more than a bunch of people on their backs.

[Ciazio]

We might very well get a scenario of a dragon caught between two dragonriders.

Boom?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

On my post at #214, I should have clearly stated that it seems "A dragon can only bond with one rider at a time." My appologies for not being clear. Once a dragonrider dies, we know a dragon will accept a new rider.

I never considered the possibility of one Targ "stealing" a dragon from another. How powerful is the magical bond? If it was possible, though, why would so many dragons have died during the Dance of the Dragons? I would think that both sides would concentrate on stealing dragons and avoid killing them, in order to preserve their power base.

[The BlackBear]

I have an overwhelming desire to know whether it Was Orys or Argilacs line that gave rise to the 'Baratheon' look.

[Lord Varys]

I'm quite sure it was Argilac's line. Even if Orys was indeed black-bearded, his paternal line consists of the incestuous Targaryen line, and it's not so unlikely that the first Baratheon married their Targaryen or Velaryon cousins instead of other Westerosi houses (considering that Orys and Aegon were this close, I'd be very surprised if Aegon did not marry one of his spare daughters - if he had any - to Orys's son).

The fact that every known marriage between a Baratheon and a blonde/fair-haired partner led to black-haired children, strongly suggests that House Durrandon (the name comes from Durran, the first Storm King) preserved/developed its unique look over/through the centuries.

My guess is that the so-called 'Baratheon look' came from Durran's divine bride. Perhaps even the characteristic Baratheon behavior (great charisma, great physical strength, great appetite for life etc.).

[Fire Eater]

My guess is that the so-called 'Baratheon look' came from Durran's divine bride. Perhaps even the characteristic Baratheon behavior (great charisma, great physical strength, great appetite for life etc.).

Try saying that about Stannis,

I'm quite sure it was Argilac's line. Even if Orys was indeed black-bearded, his paternal line consists of the incestuous Targaryen line, and it's not so unlikely that the first Baratheon married their Targaryen or Velaryon cousins instead of other Westerosi houses (considering that Orys and Aegon were this close, I'd be very surprised if Aegon did not marry one of his spare daughters - if he had any - to Orys's son).

The fact that every known marriage between a Baratheon and a blonde/fair-haired partner led to black-haired children, strongly suggests that House Durrandon (the name comes from Durran, the first Storm King) preserved/developed its unique look over/through the centuries.

Durran's wife being a goddess was pure myth, as there aren't any anthropomorphic gods being shown in person in ASOIAF. The Baratheon look could have come from Orys as we're not told if the Durrandons had any specific traits.