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Reading from The World of Ice and Fire


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Durran's wife being a goddess was pure myth, as there aren't any anthropomorphic gods being shown in person in ASOIAF. The Baratheon look could have come from Orys as we're not told if the Durrandons had any specific traits.

After 5 books of being told the almighty look of the almighty valyrians is fair hair with a distinct feature of silver/gold hair, and that the almighty Targs are a good exemple of that, it's in the blood, the magical blood of valyria. We even now have a Aegon, whose only claim is based on his look.

Now we got a Targ bastard, who got a magical blood that give you black hair?! It make more sense to be a durrandon trait.

Or it's a plot device to deny Aegon's claim? because there is magical black haired targ, which we can check royal ancestry to Orys, because of an even more distinct look? And that a silver haired boy can come out of a Lyseni borthel?

I know that's crackpot (and lame), but I just can't make any sense about it except that.

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Fire Eater,

Stannis has at least the Baratheon looks. But rigidness and stubbornness are also Baratheon traits. Look at Gendry and Edric Storm. The fact that Stannis became a man of the law may very well be a reaction to Robert's dominating personality. After all, Robert didn't give a fig about the law.

Alternatively, one might also draw a connection between Stannis and his great-grandfather Maekar Targaryen. They seem to share some traits, but this might have nothing to do with genetics and more with the fact that both of them were little brothers and felt sidelined and mistreated by their elder brother(s).

As to Durran's bride:

I don't believe that she was a goddess, but it has been confirmed that supernatural forces were involved in the building of Storm's End. This could mean that there is also some truth in the whole story about Durran's bride. She might have been a Child of the Forest, or a member of a magical non-human species we don't know anything about. Perhaps even a member of a species that was worshiped as gods back then. Remember the story about GRRM's version of HPL's 'Deep Ones' in AFfC. The frog-like creatures once apparently lived at coasts of Crackclaw Point. The mark of House Borrell strongly suggests that such creatures indeed lived once in Westeros, and there might also have been unions between men and non-human beings.

My guess is that GRRM will eventually explore the possibility of a union between humans and non-humans. The story about the Night's King already hinted that there might have been unholy unions between men and the Others, and it's not impossible that there are noble houses with a drop of Other-blood in the North. The Boltons are the most likeliest suspects, if you ask me.

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After 5 books of being told the almighty look of the almighty valyrians is fair hair with a distinct feature of silver/gold hair, and that the almighty Targs are a good exemple of that, it's in the blood, the magical blood of valyria. We even now have a Aegon, whose only claim is based on his look.

Now we got a Targ bastard, who got a magical blood that give you black hair?! It make more sense to be a durrandon trait.

Or it's a plot device to deny Aegon's claim? because there is magical black haired targ, which we can check royal ancestry to Orys, because of an even more distinct look? And that a silver haired boy can come out of a Lyseni borthel?

I know that's crackpot (and lame), but I just can't make any sense about it except that.

Except that there is tons of precident for other traits showing up when Targaryens marry or spawn outside their House. Rhaegar's daughter had her mother's black hair, although she did have the purple eyes. Bittersteel had the same combination. Baelor Breakspear looked like a Dornishman, his son had brown hair with a gold streak in it. Maester Aemon's oldest brother Daeron the drunk was brown haired.This is hardly anything new.

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Well, thanks, I forgot about those dornish dragons.

That just prove the Baratheon traits which show in every trueborn Baratheon can't come from his targ side. it can only come from Ory's motherside which we know nothing about or the Durrandon who have dealings with the magic of the First men/COTF. Which one is more likely?

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Well, yeah if he is described as blackbearded it stands to reason it came from his mother's side. Until a direct quote appears or preferably I have the book, just cause I really want it, I don't know how much speculating can be done acuratly. I mean, Volentene's hold themselves to be culturaly Valyrian but they al look like Rhoynish natives, and Lysenni do seem to have the hair but not the eyes. So there are a lot of examples of the Valyrian look being washed out. Actually is it ever said if the Celtigars have the Valyrian look the way the Velaryons do? Could that be why the Targaryens would marry Velaryons but don't seem to marry Celtigars?

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Actually is it ever said if the Celtigars have the Valyrian look the way the Velaryons do? Could that be why the Targaryens would marry Velaryons but don't seem to marry Celtigars?

I've been looking through the text and the Celtigar look is never explicited. Lord Celitgar is only described as "old" and "wrinkled". But given how genetics work in Martin's world, I'd say that they probably have the look, and perhaps they just married with fewer Targaryens because they were a step lower in the ranks of Valyrian nobility.

Now I thin that another house that has many chances of being Valyrian is House Sunglass, due to their relation with Volantis (the new Lord flees there, and Volantene glass is somehow famed).

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Now I thin that another house that has many chances of being Valyrian is House Sunglass, due to their relation with Volantis (the new Lord flees there, and Volantene glass is somehow famed).

Yeah, dunno why but in my mind I've always figured the Sunglasses tu be Valyrian like Velaryons.

But not Celtigars. No, no. A Valyrian... crab? Truly? LOL

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Lord Varys

Interesting speculation. I personally would love it if there are more non-human ancient races that we are as yet unaware of.

Well in GRRM's book Fevre Dreams, although it was set in mississipi, didnt a vampire say that he could recall the Others!!! and who knows, Darkstar is of the night haha :D
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Now I thin that another house that has many chances of being Valyrian is House Sunglass, due to their relation with Volantis (the new Lord flees there, and Volantene glass is somehow famed).

Isn't the Sunglass sigil a variant on the Seven-pointed star though? That leads me to think they may not be Valyrian in origin, or they could be an offshoot branch that only got their own House after the migration to Westeros. How long did it take the Targaryens to convert? I've gotten different interpretations, some times it seems like Aegon's coronation was also a conversion, but there is reference to him praying in the sept on Dragonstone before setting out for the conquest.

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A Valyrian... crab? Truly? LOL

I don't think "the crabs" are Valyrian, as the rest of Valyrian noble houses didn't brought their heraldry with them: the Targaryen three-headed dragon represents Aegon and his sisters, and the skulls from house Qoherys represent the Hoares that burned at Harrenhal. Simmilarly, the Celtigars' blazon would come after their enfeoffment with the Island of Crabs.

Isn't the Sunglass sigil a variant on the Seven-pointed star though? That leads me to think they may not be Valyrian in origin, or they could be an offshoot branch that only got their own House after the migration to Westeros. How long did it take the Targaryens to convert? I've gotten different interpretations, some times it seems like Aegon's coronation was also a conversion, but there is reference to him praying in the sept on Dragonstone before setting out for the conquest.

As with the Celtigar crabs, the Sunglass would have adopted their shield after the Conquest. So it stands to reason that a Valyrian house adopted the symbol of the Faith if Aegon himself had converted before the Conquest.

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I don't think "the crabs" are Valyrian, as the rest of Valyrian noble houses didn't brought their heraldry with them: the Targaryen three-headed dragon represents Aegon and his sisters, and the skulls from house Qoherys represent the Hoares that burned at Harrenhal. Simmilarly, the Celtigars' blazon would come after their enfeoffment with the Island of Crabs.

As with the Celtigar crabs, the Sunglass would have adopted their shield after the Conquest. So it stands to reason that a Valyrian house adopted the symbol of the Faith if Aegon himself had converted before the Conquest.

Wasn't even thinking about the heraldry not being Valyrian in origin, big duh on my part.

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