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Am I the only one grossed out about SanSan?


Liar

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Gerris is about 24 according to wiki and is kind of douchey in the books but I still find him super hot.

I would sell my mother for a bit of breeze,” said Gerris, as they rolled through the dockside throngs. “It’s moist as the Maiden’s cunt, and still shy of noon. I hate this city.”

“I told him it was folly. I begged him to go home. Your bitch of a queen had no use for him, any man could see that…” “She spurned him. He offered her his heart, and she threw it back at him and went off to fuck her sellsword.”

He doesn't really believe in marrying for love.

“What has love to do with marriage?” A prince should know better. Your father married for love, it’s said. How much joy has he had of that?”

I feel the same way towards Brandon Stark. His haters like the stale and frigid Ned.

IDK who is nice and described as good looking.

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I kind of find it gross and disturbing yet I kind of like it at the same time. I think the idea of them actually together just doesn't work for me but I love their 'relationship' in the books. I'd be happy if she continued to be a presence and motivation in his life without it ever developing into anything else. In fact, I think it would be for the best if he died for her, that would redeem him in my eyes.

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Having once been in high school and proceeded through college and, having met my share of young, tall, handsome, charming, and highly sexed males, I can say with some degree of certainty that almost all of them are douchebags in real life.The super hot nice guy is as rare in reality as he should be in fiction.

To the OP, no, you're not the only one grossed out by SanSan.

Wow. I stand corrected.

That, or else making a silly, cliched blanket statements about nearly all handsome, charming men being douchebags is ridiculous, stereotypical, and offensive in the same sense that people insisting that hot women are "almost always" snobs/ bitches is. Also, though it's rude to say, such statements (all those hot girls who get all the guys/ reject me are bitches! All those hot guys are dicks who get all the girls/ reject me are dicks!) carries a distinct whiff of sour grapes.

People are people. There are a percentage of douchebags whether a male or female is ugly, gorgeous, or average.

Gaah, this is depressingly true- the cute guys are deficient to begin with and most are either awful or gay. There was Marillion, Jaime, Joffery, Euron, Drogo...

Yeah, the "worst offenders," however, are the young, handsome, charming guys who are total ladies men-- they inevitably (it seems) turn out to be raging douchbags-- generally for reasons that directly have something to do with their dealings with women.

Once we heard Brandon was "charming" and far "taller and better looking" than Ned, we probably should have known he'd turn out to be a raging douche in book five, shouldn't we have?

The jealousy leaps from the pages.

Ha! I wasn't trying to insinuate that it's an issue of jealousy, per say. (Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, here...) However, I do find it strange that men like Brandon Stark and Harry the Heir are portrayed as creeps for sleeping with numerous women and impregnating some, whereas Tyrion Lannister sleeps with just as many women and (as he notes) has "spilled my seed" and left them and taken no measures to prevent pregnancy with the hookers he's had contact with. Furthermore, men like Brandon Stark, Harry, and other handsome men are made to look like jerks for sleeping with lots of girls, but Tyrion pretty much exploiting girls from the lower classes so he can selfishly get his rocks off is portrayed as utterly understandable, sympathetic, and natural. It's as though... being a hot guy who gets lots of girls and sleeps around= immoral; being an ugly guy who can't get girls and choses to pay gorgeous young women to sleep with him, then sleeps around= normal, intensely sympathetic behavior.

A bit of a double standard, IMO.

Unsympathetically portrayed "player" males like Brandon, Harry, Theon, etc. may be insenstivive and careless with getting girls knocked up. But "nice" guys like Tyrion are simply creepy, despite the fact that they are portrayed with sympathy.

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Nope. Before going to the internet to discuss it, a San/San pairing never ever crossed my mind. It was a shock to see people seriously defend it, coming with all kinds of excuses to make the pairing of a late 20's/early 30's deformed, drunk and bitter killer of children with a 12 year old that he might even have raped seem acceptable. And I do like the Hound, but seriously, this is pathetic.

This. I had no idea sansan existed until I discovered Westeros. It was a serious shock to discover a strong contingent of fans actively shipping an older violent alcoholic man with a young girl barely into puberty!

I like Sandor as well, but I don't actively ship him with anyone (dude is too damaged). I'm hoping that his function will be ultimately to serve as Sansa's protector, not her lover.

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I will admit I do like sansan to the degree of protector and the white armored man she'd been pinning for. Honestly Sandor's hatred of the title "Knight" and his realistic slap in the faces at Sansa were something I liked about the pair. As for romantic involvement between them, the only hint of it is in sansa's warped dreamworld where she thought Sandor had those feelings for her when I believe in reality he felt sorry for her. He already knew she was nothing he could have ever had, all he wanted was someone to share his views with. any sort of connection.

Sansa seemed to be the outcast he felt connected with. Just as he did with Arya.

as for the good looking perfect prince. I believe aegon the arrogant and needs a humbling would be good prey for Sansa. She could snap him out of it and they end up together... now thats my fantasy which most likely will never happen. LOL

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As people have mentioned upthread, I was also unaware of the SanSan ship until I found this board. I never saw it in the books and I really don't understand how people can pair Sandor, a violent drunk, with Sansa. If they ever do somehow meet up again, I think he will become her protector and perhaps die for her. I don't want them to have a romantic relationship.

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Creeped out with the pairing to a great degree. If it ever came to pass they actually end up together I''ll throw my copy of the book out of the window. That's how upset I would be with the outcome. Imho, what Sansa needs is a nice, regular, good-looking and emotionally stable guy, and that is not Sandor. Actually, I'd rather see her with someone like Gerris Drinkwater, or even Jon if R+L=J.

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Gerris isn't really nice. His personality comes off similarly to how GRRM portrayed Brandon Stark to me. Their dialogue is similar of the little we got of Brandon.

Podrick Payne, Trystane Martell, Hos Blackwood, etc. are nice guys. & not Nice Guys in the Jorah sense.

EDIT: Here are quotes but I don't believe that Gerris was portrayed as positively in comparison to other attractive males.

Barriston disliked him and called him false.

“If this one had been the prince, things might have gone elsewise, he could not but think…but there was something a bit too pleasant about Drinkwater for his taste. False coin, the old knight thought. He had known such men before.”

"Ser Barriston did not like this Gerris Drinkwater, nor would he allow him to vilify Daenerys."

He said that Gerris has probably slept with many women and Gerris said that he wished that the septas in Westeros were pleasure women.

“I could take you to the Temple of Graces and find a girl for you.” “A whore, you mean.” “They call them Graces. They come in different colors. The red ones are the only ones who fuck…The septas back home should take up the custom if you ask me. Have you noticed that old septas always look like prunes? That’s what a life of chastity will do to you.”

He said that men like maidens but men need to be experienced. That sounds very Brandon to me.

“Men may be fond of maidens, but women like a man who knows what he’s about in the bedchamber. It’s another sort of swordplay. Takes training to be good at it.”

I think it just comes off better because he's Dornish.

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As much as I like the Hound and enjoy reading about him, I love Sansa the triple. When I read and reread her, I see her as a little sister, grieving with her and also "reproaching her" if she makes a bad decision.

I don't know if there is people who sincerely are/were pro-SanSan, but for what I've read on this forum, yes, there is.

Sandor is a bad partner for Sansa! He is too old, shit-mouthed, have terrible manners, overly aggressive. Even the "reborn" Sandor, should be more of a elder-brotherly relationship or fatherly figure.

The scene in the battle of the Blackwater was gross. First I thought: "Yeah Sandy! take her out of there!" But then it all was just... creepy. "Don't you touch herrr!"

Is there anyone pro SanSan? Please counterpoint.

As someone who does like the idea of Sandor and Sansa ending up together (although does not seem it happening as I still think Sansa is to be the “prize” for poor little Tyrion) I shall try and explain why I like the idea.

Sandor is a complete arsehole. He is also an alcoholic, killer with serious rage issues and PTSD in regards to fire. Sansa is a sweet naive girl, who has her head in the clouds and is scared of him. This is the scenario at least at the beginning of AGOT. Both characters however interact with each other from Sansa’s first chapter and Sandor is mentioned in almost every one of her chapters until the end of AFFC. There is some growth and change there in both characters.

Sandor is not a nice person and does alternate between saving her and giving her advice, to being down right nasty to her and placing sharp metal objects at her throat at least twice, all through ACOK. However he is the one person in KL she seems to talk to on a genuine level, not hiding behind her courtesy armour with and does give as good as she gets at times and has no problem telling him he is awful. However in ASOS she also seems to develop an interest in him and given the Kiss with him, she makes up in her head and keeping his cloak and wondering if she would not have been wiser to leave with him, I do think there is something there. He meanwhile does save Arya’s life and goes through a huge personal crisis ending in remorse for not having done more to save her and in utter despair that she has been married off to Tyrion. Then possibly going off to the QI. In AFFC we have Sansa think about him or at least compare him to someone in every chapter and have her thinking about that kiss that never happened again. Then there appears to be a lot of foreshadowing concerning them, right back to the death of “Lady and Robert’s line “Get her a dog, she’ll be happier for it.”

Does Sansa over romanticize someone who is unpleasant in ASOS and AFFC, most definitely yes. But I doubt anyone would want to see Sandor and Sansa together as they were as people in KL. Sandor is hopefully (if he is alive and reappears) going to be a better person than he was and lost some of the rage issues. However as the OP said, he is still not the best choice for her. To be honest I don’t even think he is the best choice for her, and would suggest it would be Aegon or ideally Domeric Bolton. In the story however, Sansa has been betrothed to a psychopath, Joff, betrothed to Willas and had that snatched away through a forced marriage to her Jailor, Tyrion, who stops himself from raping her at the last minute, then betrothed to her critically ill and exceptionally bratty and spoilt younger cousin SR, and finally betrothed to a man who sounds like King Robert 2.0 and to top it off, has to deal with the very insidious LF. All these relationships, with the exception of Willas, have been foisted upon her and the difference with Sandor is that she appears to like him and he actually likes her and not for her claim. It is very much like Jane Eyre or Jamaica Inn where the girl could do a hell of a lot better, but in the end it’s her choice, even if it is not the best one, or a down right bad one.

Is it problematic? Exceptionally. In real life someone like Sandor wouldn’t be fit for any woman to go out with, but neither would any of the male characters in the series, even Ned or Davos. The age thing is a problem and were it the only such relationship in the book, then I would be very very creeped out by it. However GRRM has made this a commonplace phenomenon throughout the story. Rhaegar in his twenties falls for the 14 year old Lyanna at the tourney at Harrenhall, there is Dany and Drogo, Jorah liking Dany, every man around fancying Dany, who is possibly just hitting 16 by the end of ADWD, Brienne and Jaime have the same age gap as Sandor and Sansa, men making remarks to Arya at 10, Bran at 9 is in love with Meera and then finally, we have almost every man who sees Sansa make some remark about how hot she is (including Tyrion, LF, Tywin, the Lords Declerant, Marillion etc). Which makes me think at least, especially when reading GRRM interviews, that when he first started writing these books, a) He should and intended to have made the characters a lot lot older and indeed had tried to do the 5 year gap as a way of doing just that (aging them up) and B) he bought into the Medieval Urban Myth that all girls were married off and having children as soon as possible, due to a number of famous cases (a myth that has only recently been debunked in the last decade or so).

Edit: just to say I completely get why people don't like it as it is very much in the style of Jane Eyre etc where the woman falls for quite an unpleasant person. Another example would be Lizzie Hexham and Eugune Wrayburn from "Our mutual Friend", where again, she could do a lot better.

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Im not a san san fan but i am confused by something.

In our world all other people my age have something in common. a kind of shared experiece of growing up at the same time. Even if from a different city still a few things in common. How would age make a difference in asoiaf. They both grew up in castles had maesters. I just dont see how age would be all that relevant. Unless its like walder frey gross. obviously sansas age is a huge issue. But the age gap doesnt seem extreme.

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Wow. I stand corrected.

That, or else making a silly, cliched blanket statements about nearly all handsome, charming men being douchebags is ridiculous, stereotypical, and offensive in the same sense that people insisting that hot women are "almost always" snobs/ bitches is. Also, though it's rude to say, such statements (all those hot girls who get all the guys/ reject me are bitches! All those hot guys are dicks who get all the girls/ reject me are dicks!) carries a distinct whiff of sour grapes.

People are people. There are a percentage of douchebags whether a male or female is ugly, gorgeous, or average.

I just wanted to jump in here with my (probably unpopular) opinion. I have found that although there are douchebags of all shapes, sizes and degrees of attractiveness in my experience exceptionally good looking people do seem to be douchier than your average joe. My theory is that people who are super good looking seem to be treated a little differently (read better) than others less fortunate in the looks department. Google it people. It's human nature to appreciate beauty (facial symmetry, good physique etc) because it signals good genes which means you're pretty likely to want to fuck them. IMO because really good looking people often receive preferential treatment (due to the aforementioned 'u wanna fuck em' reason) it becomes something they expect and this sense of entitlement and idea they are somehow better than others often translates in douchy behaviour. Of course there are beautiful people who are generous, caring and kind and there are ugly people who are assholes but in my experience hotties (both male and female) are often major dickwads ... just sayin.

Completely agree with you wrt the hypocrisy in the portrayal of Tyrion in comparison to the more attractive womanisers btw. I don't understand how Harry and Robert can be condemned for making the most of their opportunities for sex with willing partners and Tyrion is treated with sympathy wrt his use of prostitutes??? Mind boggling.

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Also I read somewhere that GRRM said he wanted to turn the usual fantasy construct where the black clad, ugly crim is the villain on its head with the night watch who are all of that and yet they are heros. I imagine that his portrayal of good looking people as being generally douchy has something to do with challenging the common practice in fantasy novels of having the majority of characters who are good also be beautiful.

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As someone who does like the idea of Sandor and Sansa ending up together (although does not seem it happening as I still think Sansa is to be the "prize" for poor little Tyrion) I shall try and explain why I like the idea.

Sandor is a complete arsehole. He is also an alcoholic, killer with serious rage issues and PTSD in regards to fire. Sansa is a sweet naive girl, who has her head in the clouds and is scared of him. This is the scenario at least at the beginning of AGOT. Both characters however interact with each other from Sansa's first chapter and Sandor is mentioned in almost every one of her chapters until the end of AFFC. There is some growth and change there in both characters.

Sandor is not a nice person and does alternate between saving her and giving her advice, to being down right nasty to her and placing sharp metal objects at her throat at least twice, all through ACOK. However he is the one person in KL she seems to talk to on a genuine level, not hiding behind her courtesy armour with and does give as good as she gets at times and has no problem telling him he is awful. However in ASOS she also seems to develop an interest in him and given the Kiss with him, she makes up in her head and keeping his cloak and wondering if she would not have been wiser to leave with him, I do think there is something there. He meanwhile does save Arya's life and goes through a huge personal crisis ending in remorse for not having done more to save her and in utter despair that she has been married off to Tyrion. Then possibly going off to the QI. In AFFC we have Sansa think about him or at least compare him to someone in every chapter and have her thinking about that kiss that never happened again. Then there appears to be a lot of foreshadowing concerning them, right back to the death of "Lady and Robert's line "Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it."

Does Sansa over romanticize someone who is unpleasant in ASOS and AFFC, most definitely yes. But I doubt anyone would want to see Sandor and Sansa together as they were as people in KL. Sandor is hopefully (if he is alive and reappears) going to be a better person than he was and lost some of the rage issues. However as the OP said, he is still not the best choice for her. To be honest I don't even think he is the best choice for her, and would suggest it would be Aegon or ideally Domeric Bolton. In the story however, Sansa has been betrothed to a psychopath, Joff, betrothed to Willas and had that snatched away through a forced marriage to her Jailor, Tyrion, who stops himself from raping her at the last minute, then betrothed to her critically ill and exceptionally bratty and spoilt younger cousin SR, and finally betrothed to a man who sounds like King Robert 2.0 and to top it off, has to deal with the very insidious LF. All these relationships, with the exception of Willas, have been foisted upon her and the difference with Sandor is that she appears to like him and he actually likes her and not for her claim. It is very much like Jane Eyre or Jamaica Inn where the girl could do a hell of a lot better, but in the end it's her choice, even if it is not the best one, or a down right bad one.

Is it problematic? Exceptionally. In real life someone like Sandor wouldn't be fit for any woman to go out with, but neither would any of the male characters in the series, even Ned or Davos. The age thing is a problem and were it the only such relationship in the book, then I would be very very creeped out by it. However GRRM has made this a commonplace phenomenon throughout the story. Rhaegar in his twenties falls for the 14 year old Lyanna at the tourney at Harrenhall, there is Dany and Drogo, Jorah liking Dany, every man around fancying Dany, who is possibly just hitting 16 by the end of ADWD, Brienne and Jaime have the same age gap as Sandor and Sansa, men making remarks to Arya at 10, Bran at 9 is in love with Meera and then finally, we have almost every man who sees Sansa make some remark about how hot she is (including Tyrion, LF, Tywin, the Lords Declerant, Marillion etc). Which makes me think at least, especially when reading GRRM interviews, that when he first started writing these books, a) He should and intended to have made the characters a lot lot older and indeed had tried to do the 5 year gap as a way of doing just that (aging them up) and B) he bought into the Medieval Urban Myth that all girls were married off and having children as soon as possible, due to a number of famous cases (a myth that has only recently been debunked in the last decade or so).

Edit: just to say I completely get why people don't like it as it is very much in the style of Jane Eyre etc where the woman falls for quite an unpleasant person. Another example would be Lizzie Hexham and Eugune Wrayburn from "Our mutual Friend", where again, she could do a lot better.

Great post, and very good points. I try to remain in the "medieval context" to judge things in this world, and as much heart warming I found, i.e, that she touched his face and felt his tears, and how much she thinks of him later about what she should've done, I can't abide the idea of a relationship that goes beyond friendship. To me it seems like she feels for him because she sees how damaged he is and that awakes certain thoughts. Perhaps is a mix of understanding and pity towards him.

She's been through a lot and dealt with too many jerks (including him), she may be confused. I think the partner for Sansa, if there should be one ever (7 books), it's still out there and she hasn't found him yet.

I believe there's more things that separate them than things that unite them romantically.

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ETA: Of course, young, tall, handsome, charming, and highly sexed males are almost invariably douchebags in GRRM novels-- they turn out to be heartless players, even though they basically do the same things and display the same attitudes that GRRM's avatar Tyrion does without censure, and with a great deal of sympathy. (I guess sleeping around and using women is a-okay, so long as the women in question are prostitutes, and the guy is ugly?)

I think you might be basing your opinion on Tyrion's portrayal on his POV chapters, which given the POV chapters are written from a character's point of view, would only give you an impression of how Tyrion sees his actions. Given his status I can see why no-one would want to bring up his whoring, and during the time-frame of the books not being conciously aware of his bastards isn't that implausible. While younger he was at Casterly Rock, and I'd expect Tywin made some arrangements to stop dozens of lannister-featured dwarves appearing in brothels across Lannisport. Moon tea would be the easiest method, and it might even be standard practice at the higher class brothels frequented by nobles. After that moon tea standard practice is still possible, and he's mainly exclusive with Shae.

Personally I hope we'll see some bastards (with luck Penny is one) and how Tyrion deals with them, but I can see why we wouldn't.

Also I read somewhere that GRRM said he wanted to turn the usual fantasy construct where the black clad, ugly crim is the villain on its head with the night watch who are all of that and yet they are heros. I imagine that his portrayal of good looking people as being generally douchy has something to do with challenging the common practice in fantasy novels of having the majority of characters who are good also be beautiful.

That would explain his choices in writing certain characters far better than other explanations offered so far. GRRM does generally try to be representative when creating his characters, so I'm inclined to think this is the explanation. It's a shame it doesn't apply fully to the TV series, though - a visual medium would have done more to drive home the message.

As for San/San... well, I think from a story point of view it would work, but to be satisfied as a reader the messy consequences would have to be explored.

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