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Ser Illin'

What Varys Doesn't Say in the Epilogue...

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So I was reading through this the other day, and I noticed something curious about Varys' conversation with Kevan. My apologies if this has already been posted somewhere. I couldn't find it.

Varys never calls Young Griff "Aegon Targaryen." Nor does he ever allege that he is in any way related to the dynasty. He merely says that "Aegon" has been raised to be a king and all that jazz. For all we know, Varys could have found some Lysene whore's baby and named him Aegon. Or maybe his name is Aegon Mopatis? Or even (dare I suggest it...) Aegon Blackfyre? It's worth mentioning that Daemon Blackfyre's first two sons were Aegon and Aemon.

Not ironclad proof of anything in the end, but it reconciles the thought that Varys has no reason to lie to a dying Kevan with the theory that Aegon could be fake.

Thoughts?

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Yes there are many threads on Aegon being a blackfyre. As a matter of fact, if you go to the General forum you will find a half dozen or so threads. They are some of the fastest threads, and people on both sides are going to hammer you with everything and the kitchen sink but no real facts.

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Personally I think Aegon is Illyrio's son by his dead wife who was just some Essosian Vallyrian descendant. Illyrio's story about his and Varys' shared past shows that they'll love to cheat the highborn with such a fantastic swindle.

Varys calls Aegon by his first name as a term of endearment. He demonstrates to us in it that he has a heart and it's been captured by the concept of King Aegon, just like Illyrio loves his wife and son.

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Thoughts?

Yep, "Aegon is a Blackfyre" and "Varys believes what he told Kevan" seem perfectly reconcilable to me either. Which is lucky cause I happen to believe in both.

Of course in theory Varys could have put on a show. But not for Kevan's benefit, who was dying anyways. Possibly for his avian underlings who may have been listening. But there would have been no need - if he wanted them in the loop surely he would have told them about Aegon already and they won't stop believing him just cause he doesn't explain it in their hearing to every dying man in King's Landing. So the reason for Varys confiding in the dying Kevan is likely different. Maybe he felt he owed Kevan as much. Maybe he enjoys being able to talk freely for once. Or maybe he's a soppy old romantic who clings to his hope of the return of the redeeming king and expounds on it to help convince himself that he really pulled a Merlin here. Or, depending on your favourite version of the Arthurian legend, that he didn't pull a Merlin.

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Jon Connington notes in one of his chapters that the Blackfyres ended with maelys the monstrous in the male line.this means we can assume the female line survived. if the Blackfyres kept the Targ tradition of marrying brother to sister then its possible that Aegon is a Blackfyre descendant through the female line. Varys never legitimizes Aegon when he speaks to kevan, he merely states that the boy has been raised to be a king, a better king than Westeros has had in Robert or Joffrey. This begs the question what would have happened if Viserys had gained the throne. Aegon's claim is stronger than his uncle's and i doubt Jon Con would have twiddled his thumbs and said "Oh Well". I only hope we get an explanation one way or the other in Winds rather than having to wait till Dream.

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There is no evidence that I've seen that shows Aegon is anyone other Aegon Targaryen other than "the Mummer's Dragon" in the prophecy. It seems people are reading too much into the prophecies and are going to be disappointed (just like Mel).

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There is no evidence that I've seen that shows Aegon is anyone other Aegon Targaryen other than "the Mummer's Dragon" in the prophecy. It seems people are reading too much into the prophecies and are going to be disappointed (just like Mel).

Wholeheartedly agree. The comment before that "the Blackfyre went extinct in the male line with Maelys the Monstrous" means we can assume is taken the wrong way. You can assume that, but you don't have to. It is an assumption and not a fact. Stating "I have no living grandmothers" would not mean that I either do or don't have living grandfathers. People take anything that's not explicitly stated to be false as true. Hence we get Aegon is a Blackfyre. Tyrion is a Targaryen. And all the other ridiculous theories out there. Watch me be proven wrong on all these now.

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There is no evidence that I've seen that shows Aegon is anyone other Aegon Targaryen other than "the Mummer's Dragon" in the prophecy. It seems people are reading too much into the prophecies and are going to be disappointed (just like Mel).

And no evidence that Aegon is Aegon Targaryen as well. But the Aegon Blackfyre-Mopatis theory answers about every single open question concerning Varys and lllyrio's involvement and motivation.

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And no evidence that Aegon is Aegon Targaryen as well. But the Aegon Blackfyre-Mopatis theory answers about every single open question concerning Varys and lllyrio's involvement and motivation.

Except why would they also be supporting Viserys and Dany? Before Dany was Queen in her own mind/right, her brother was ahead of her. What if Viserys had stayed with Illyrio until the Dothraki were ready to invade Westeros?

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Yep, "Aegon is a Blackfyre" and "Varys believes what he told Kevan" seem perfectly reconcilable to me either. Which is lucky cause I happen to believe in both.

Of course in theory Varys could have put on a show. But not for Kevan's benefit, who was dying anyways. Possibly for his avian underlings who may have been listening. But there would have been no need - if he wanted them in the loop surely he would have told them about Aegon already and they won't stop believing him just cause he doesn't explain it in their hearing to every dying man in King's Landing. So the reason for Varys confiding in the dying Kevan is likely different. Maybe he felt he owed Kevan as much. Maybe he enjoys being able to talk freely for once. Or maybe he's a soppy old romantic who clings to his hope of the return of the redeeming king and expounds on it to help convince himself that he really pulled a Merlin here. Or, depending on your favourite version of the Arthurian legend, that he didn't pull a Merlin.

There is also the giant white raven present.

I think this is significant because I believe that Varys is knowingly entangled in the overall Song and is trying to establish something towards making one side (Ice or Fire) or the middle road victorious. My belief in Varys being involved in the Song is that, when Kevan asks "Why did you just kill me?" Varys responds with "For the children." But what children? I highly doubt he needs the realm in shambles for the sake of his little birds; if it was for making it easier for Aegon to be on the throne, then it would be "For the child." If it was "for the children of the realm," well, creating more and more war is NOT in the average kids best interest. But what if, in saying children, he is referencing the Children of the Forest? This brings me back to the white raven that is also in the room. We know that Bloodraven is a very powerful Greenseer/Warg; we know that he has many connections to ravens; maybe he is warging the raven at that time and Varys knows it?

Food for thought

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Except why would they also be supporting Viserys and Dany? Before Dany was Queen in her own mind/right, her brother was ahead of her. What if Viserys had stayed with Illyrio until the Dothraki were ready to invade Westeros?

Lot of forumers choose to ignore this part, they really would like their precious little queen on the throne.

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Except why would they also be supporting Viserys and Dany? Before Dany was Queen in her own mind/right, her brother was ahead of her. What if Viserys had stayed with Illyrio until the Dothraki were ready to invade Westeros?

Then Viserys would have died during the Dothraki invasion.

Varys and Illyrio were never supporting Dany and Viserys.

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Lot of forumers choose to ignore this part, they really would like their precious little queen on the throne.

The plan might have been to have him assassinated. That or they knew Viserys too well to think that he would actually take up the offer, and decided to give the offer as a way of shoving aside thoughts along the lines of "They sent Viserys with the Dothraki just so he'd die and get out of their hair;" by having offered long term hospitality to Viserys, the blame for his death with the Dothraki lies with him alone (well, him and the Dothraki involved, including Dany and Jorah,)

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My problem is with those who choose to ignore the part where Varys and Illyrio helped Dany and Viserys. If they would be Blackfyre they would have killed them, not send them help every now and then.

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My problem is with those who choose to ignore the part where Varys and Illyrio helped Dany and Viserys. If they would have been Blackfyre they would have killed them, not send them help every now and then.

Sure, sending Dany and Viserys off to live with the Dothraki was really helpful. Thanks a lot guys. And also, thanks so much for the support during all the years that Dany and Viserys were wandering homeless through the Free Cities. With friends like Varys and Illyrion, who needs enemies?

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Sure, sending Dany and Viserys off to live with the Dothraki was really helpful. Thanks a lot guys. And also, thanks so much for the support during all the years that Dany and Viserys were wandering homeless through the Free Cities. With friends like Varys and Illyrion, who needs enemies?

they were hiding. dragon eggs. khal drogo marriage, warning for assassination attempt, ships, and ppl. Sure Dany would have been fine without these gifts.

you will reply that dragon eggs and the marriage wasnt real help (LOL :D:D).

you will ignore the other things. like you already ignore why didn't they killed them? they are targaryen. blackfyres kill targs.

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they were hiding. dragon eggs. khal drogo marriage, warning for assassination attempt, ships, and ppl. Sure Dany would have been fine without these gifts.

you will reply that dragon eggs and the marriage wasnt real help (LOL :D :D).

you will ignore the other things. like you already ignore why didn't they killed them? they are targaryen. blackfyres kill targs.

There are quite a few threads around about what Illyrio and Varys were really up to with Dany and Viserys, I'd suggest you have a read.

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There are quite a few threads around about what Illyrio and Varys were really up to with Dany and Viserys, I'd suggest you have a read.

thanks mate, had a blast :D your reply was better then the whole Hodor thread.

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There is no evidence that I've seen that shows Aegon is anyone other Aegon Targaryen other than "the Mummer's Dragon" in the prophecy. It seems people are reading too much into the prophecies and are going to be disappointed (just like Mel).

For me, the most convincing argument is literary convention. It seems highly unlikely that GRRM would introduce a major player this far into the series, and since R+L=J is pretty much guaranteed, I can't see him pulling the secret-son-of-Rhaegar stunt twice.

That, and the blue hair works both ways. Could be he's hiding his Targaryen hair from his enemies, could be he's hiding his lack of Targaryen hair from his followers.

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