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Ser Illin'

What Varys Doesn't Say in the Epilogue...

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thanks mate, had a blast :D your reply was better then the whole Hodor thread.

You are welcome! I too had a blast! I can already tell that we are friends.

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There is also the giant white raven present.

I think this is significant because I believe that Varys is knowingly entangled in the overall Song and is trying to establish something towards making one side (Ice or Fire) or the middle road victorious. My belief in Varys being involved in the Song is that, when Kevan asks "Why did you just kill me?" Varys responds with "For the children." But what children? I highly doubt he needs the realm in shambles for the sake of his little birds; if it was for making it easier for Aegon to be on the throne, then it would be "For the child." If it was "for the children of the realm," well, creating more and more war is NOT in the average kids best interest. But what if, in saying children, he is referencing the Children of the Forest? This brings me back to the white raven that is also in the room. We know that Bloodraven is a very powerful Greenseer/Warg; we know that he has many connections to ravens; maybe he is warging the raven at that time and Varys knows it?

Food for thought

The only thing I can say for this theory is that if Bloodraven and Varys have anything to do with each other, we can throw the Blackfyre theories right out the window. BR is not gonna do anything that would put one on the throne.

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Lot of forumers choose to ignore this part, they really would like their precious little queen on the throne.

I hate — HATE — Dany. I don't want her on the throne or anywhere near it. My "precious little queen" she most certainly is not.

But I do think that Aegon is a Blackfyre, not Aegon Targaryen, and that Varys and Illyrio were never actually helping Dany and Viserys.

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I personally think Aegon is the son of Rhaegar because Tyrion is good at looking past appearances and seeing what's underneath people. He could have said that Young Griff was just some Dayne or Blackfyre or other no-Targ with purple eyes, but he goes to Rhaegar's son first.

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My take on Illyrio and Varys' scheme is, they really did plan to put Aegon on the Iron Throne all along but that Aegon is neither a Targaryen nor a Blackfire but simply Illyrio's son by his wife, who may have had enough Valyrian blood to make the boy's appearance Targaryenish (silver hair).

The whole justification by right of blood is kind of funny when we remember who Varys and Illyrio are and where they came from. They're not Westerosi, they don't even come from well to do families. They're self made men who started from nothing. They don't like the system. Also, they're cheats. Why would their life ambition be to restore has-beens to 'their rightful place'? It makes much more sense for Illyrio to want his son to become super-rich and powerful and live the good life and be respected and feared by the high and mighty. Having some Blackfire blood adds nothing to this motivation. Similarly Varys has repeatedly stated his dream that the little people would have a good ruler that would care about them and not play realpolitik games with their corpses. Having someone without the much touted royal blood would actually be better for his goals since he can then reveal to the new king that actually he is just like the small-folk and should therefore sympathize with them.

Now as for how all this fits with Illyrio and Varys treatment of Viserys and Dany, I think the overall aim was either to win Dothraki troops for their candidate Aegon using the marriage agreement after Viserys was killed or alternatively, to weaken the defenses of the 7K by sending Viserys with his promised Dothraki troops so that after both sides are exhausted, Aegon can land on Westeros with his fresh Golden Company and win the throne easily.

Dany's otherworldly beauty and impressive name made the marriage agreement between Illyrio and Khal Drogo possible while Viserys' madness and crippling incompetence neutralized any threat he posed to their own candidate. Dany and any children she might have had were taken out of the picture by the marriage as well. She was now the wife of a Dothraki Khal. Khal Drogo would be the only man she will ever know. If he died the Dothraki would make her a celibate spinster Dosh Khaleen. And Khal Drogo and their children would have the close-minded Dothraki mentality that will keep them from ever crossing the Narrow Sea to try and conquer the 7K.

And so, Illyrio let Viserys accompany the Khal where his overweening pride and lack of any actual skills made it almost certain that he would die. If Viserys somehow failed to spontaneously self-combust, err get himself killed, Varys was there by Robert's ear to give the inflaming reports that would push Robert to send assassins against him (if they preferred to try to win the promised Dothraki troops for Aegon). When they saw how hot things were getting at King's Landing, they arranged the falwed assassination scheme against Dany. As Littlefinger (I think) explains to Ned, the chances of the scheme working were pretty low and with Ilyrio and Varys' inside man on the scene there was no chance it would work. So what was the point of it? First to make sure Robert didn't manage to kill her which might enrage Khal Drogo enough to overcome his fear of the sea. Second, to anger him just enough so he would be willing to give those promised troops to Aegon when he appeared with Illyrio to ask for his help in overthrowing Robert and/or his heirs.

Of course things didn't work out exactly the way they planned. Khal Drogo turned out to be more open minded or bloodthirsty they they believed and Dany managed to become her own player by making the dragon eggs hatch (the dragon eggs were merely the impressive gifts Illyrio had to give, similar to the Dragon-bone weapons Khal Drogo gets during the ceremony)

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And so, Illyrio let Viserys accompany the Khal where his overweening pride and lack of any actual skills made it almost certain that he would die.

This is a weak argument, Illyrio suggested Viserys stay behind in Pentos while Dany was presented to the Dosh Khaleen.

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I agree with Shadowbinding shoe, Dany/Viserys/dothraki were always a means to an end. In their conversation (Illyrio and Varys) overheard by Arya in aGoT they seem to want to delay the political turmoil in KL until the dothraki can land in westeros. The ultimate goal being a huge destabilization of the realm. If they succeed then Aegon can sweep in, unite some houses, and save the seven kingdoms from a bloodthirsty hoard of savages. If they don't, well Viserys and Dany are out of the way whilst drawing King Robert's attention to the "last" targaryens.

Everything changes with the death of Viserys, and more so the hatching of the dragon eggs. By adjusting the plan Aegon may be able to gain dragons which only adds to his legitamacy.

I think IMHO that the "Aegon is a blackfyre" theory is extremely weak. There is no actual textual evidence only alot of conjecture and guesswork. It is possible, but only as likely as the next crackpot theory (ie aegon is robert's bastard which i just read on another thread).

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This is a weak argument, Illyrio suggested Viserys stay behind in Pentos while Dany was presented to the Dosh Khaleen.

To me it sounded like an empty gesture, intended so if anyone would later ask him why didn't he try to stop Viserys from going to his death he'd say "I tried, but I was no match to the mighty Viserys and he did what he wanted" :lol: Illyrio may have 'tried' but he didn't try very hard. If Viserys did stay with Illyrio it wouldn't have protected him that much. Illyrio would have sent him to raise supporters or by trinkets at the bazaar or or visit a high-end whorehouse and Robert's assassins would have gotten rid of him, or he could even poison him with poisonous mushrooms from his gardens and say he had a bad stomach and died.

Sending him with the Dothraki just lessened his culpability.

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Wholeheartedly agree. The comment before that "the Blackfyre went extinct in the male line with Maelys the Monstrous" means we can assume is taken the wrong way. You can assume that, but you don't have to. It is an assumption and not a fact. Stating "I have no living grandmothers" would not mean that I either do or don't have living grandfathers. People take anything that's not explicitly stated to be false as true. Hence we get Aegon is a Blackfyre. Tyrion is a Targaryen. And all the other ridiculous theories out there. Watch me be proven wrong on all these now.

Strongly disagree. Of course it's an assumption, but it's a very strong assumption. Why would you say, "the *male* line is ended" when you actually mean, "the *whole* line is ended" or "the line is extinct."

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It's pretty obvious that Illyrio is not only a Targ (not a BF) but he's actually Aegon from the future.

Oh yes very obvious, but just for those not quite as astute a reader as you please expound on that just a bit... :cool4:

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There is no evidence that I've seen that shows Aegon is anyone other Aegon Targaryen other than "the Mummer's Dragon" in the prophecy.

Actually, there's darn good evidence: Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane, charged with the delicate task of slaughtering the remaining living members of the royal family, stormed the Red Keep and murdered Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon. Everyone was satisfied, including Tywin Lannister.

The evidence that Young Griff is Aegon Targaryen, on the other hand... The youngster has classic Valyrian appearance, somewhat exotic in Westeros, but by no means unique in the Free Cities. And that's it.

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Shadowbinding show - I like your train of thought, but I disagree with parts. I think the original intent was to put Viserys on the throne - thus reclaiming the Targ dynasty - but to then either off him or conveniently have Aegon show up before Viserys actually received a crown with a myriad of exiled Westerosi "vouching" for "Aegon's" heritage to take the rightful seat as the first born son of the first born of Aerys....

I don't believe Aegon was ever meant to be near battle. And we have (through Tyrion's POV) mention that Varys / Illyrio's plan has changed multiple times due to unforeseen circumstances caused by Dany and eventually Tyrion when he convinced Aegon to go to Westeros before going to Dany.

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Shadowbinding show - I like your train of thought, but I disagree with parts. I think the original intent was to put Viserys on the throne - thus reclaiming the Targ dynasty - but to then either off him or conveniently have Aegon show up before Viserys actually received a crown with a myriad of exiled Westerosi "vouching" for "Aegon's" heritage to take the rightful seat as the first born son of the first born of Aerys....

I don't believe Aegon was ever meant to be near battle. And we have (through Tyrion's POV) mention that Varys / Illyrio's plan has changed multiple times due to unforeseen circumstances caused by Dany and eventually Tyrion when he convinced Aegon to go to Westeros before going to Dany.

I think the POV was Connington when visiting the Golden Company. One of the captains complains of the constantly changing Eunuch's plans. Is that right? sry don't have my book for ref.

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Actually, there's darn good evidence: Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane, charged with the delicate task of slaughtering the remaining living members of the royal family, stormed the Red Keep and murdered Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon. Everyone was satisfied, including Tywin Lannister.

The evidence that Young Griff is Aegon Targaryen, on the other hand... The youngster has classic Valyrian appearance, somewhat exotic in Westeros, but by no mean unique in the Free Cities. And that's it.

Exactly. It's not unimpeachable evidence, but has anyone (who might know) actually said that there was a baby switch?

Varys doesn't. Does Connington? If I recall that conversation correctly, Tyrion does all the talking.

I'm not saying Aegon isn't really Aegon - I don't think he is but I am far from certain, but claiming there is more evidence that he is the real Aegon than isn't is silly to me.

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Exactly. It's not unimpeachable evidence, but has anyone (who might know) actually said that there was a baby switch?

Varys doesn't. Does Connington? If I recall that conversation correctly, Tyrion does all the talking.

I'm not saying Aegon isn't really Aegon - I don't think he is but I am far from certain, but claiming there is more evidence that he is the real Aegon than isn't is silly to me.

Aegon is the one who tells Tyrion about the replacement baby:

He had been born at the Pisswater Bend, a street of King's Landing. His father was a tanner, and his mother had died at birth. The tanner sold his boy to Varys for a jug of Arbor gold. The man had other sons, but wanted to experience the taste of Arbor gold for once in his life. Varys then arranged the swap between the two infants boys. Elia received the Pisswater prince, Varys took custody of the real Aegon.

Also what is the purpose of Dany's vision of Rhaegar in HotU if the real Aegon is dead? Why would we be shown Rhaegar claiming that his is a Song of Ice and Fire if he is already dead before the story begins?

EDIT: The direct quote from Tyrion's chapter

“That was not me. I told you. That was some tan­ner’s son from Pis­swa­ter Bend whose moth­er died birthing him. His fa­ther sold him to Lord Varys for a jug of Ar­bor gold. He had oth­er sons but had nev­er tast­ed Ar­bor gold. Varys gave the Pis­swa­ter boy to my la­dy moth­er and car­ried me away.”

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Aegon is the one who tells Tyrion about the replacement baby:

He had been born at the Pisswater Bend, a street of King's Landing. His father was a tanner, and his mother had died at birth. The tanner sold his boy to Varys for a jug of Arbor gold. The man had other sons, but wanted to experience the taste of Arbor gold for once in his life. Varys then arranged the swap between the two infants boys. Elia received the Pisswater prince, Varys took custody of the real Aegon.

Also what is the purpose of Dany's vision of Rhaegar in HotU if the real Aegon is dead? Why would we be shown Rhaegar claiming that his is a Song of Ice and Fire if he is already dead before the story begins?

EDIT: The direct quote from Tyrion's chapter

“That was not me. I told you. That was some tan­ner’s son from Pis­swa­ter Bend whose moth­er died birthing him. His fa­ther sold him to Lord Varys for a jug of Ar­bor gold. He had oth­er sons but had nev­er tast­ed Ar­bor gold. Varys gave the Pis­swa­ter boy to my la­dy moth­er and car­ried me away.”

Aegon, being a baby at the time, is hardly a good authority on what really happened.

The point of Rhaegar saying 'his is a song of ice and fire' means that:

  1. Rhaegar was wrong (again), or
  2. Prophecy is a load of shit, or
  3. The world is doomed because the saviour was killed as a baby.

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The point of Rhaegar saying 'his is a song of ice and fire' means that:

  1. Rhaegar was wrong (again), or

  2. Prophecy is a load of shit, or

  3. The world is doomed because the saviour was killed as a baby.

I don't see why GRRM would show that vision to Dany (and us) if it was just for Rhaegar to be wrong. I highly doubt the prophecy can be a load of shit since it has been built so much (maybe misinterpreted but not a load of shit). World is doomed, however, might just be a possibility though.

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I don't see why GRRM would show that vision to Dany (and us) if it was just for Rhaegar to be wrong. I highly doubt the prophecy can be a load of shit since it has been built so much (maybe misinterpreted but not a load of shit). World is doomed, however, might just be a possibility though.

I think that the important line in Dany's vision of Rhaegar is the "there must be one more. the dragon must have three heads" (or however it goes). I am of the opinion that Rhaegar changed his mind (yet again, he originally thought of himself as the PtwP) and decided that it would be Lyanna's child that would be the one who the song of ice and fire is for.

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My problem is with those who choose to ignore the part where Varys and Illyrio helped Dany and Viserys. If they would be Blackfyre they would have killed them, not send them help every now and then.

Varys survives by having his own tricks and plots. It would be like him to have a plan like this on the backburner to kick into action when and if it should seem necessary. That's all he has but he is damn good at it. Why would he support Dany and Viserys first instead of Aegon? Because he is not as legit, ergo a Blackfyre.

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