What Varys Doesn't Say in the Epilogue...

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Yes good point The Dornishmen's wife (it was discussed some upthread i believe), why put all your dragon eggs in one basket? ( I couldn't resist)

[A Bear covered in Fluff]

Are you guys still on about this? hahaha

It's the real deal guys. Give it up. Varys is just wrong that he thinks Aegon is all that. He's a Prat and unless someone beats sense into him like tyrion was in the process of doing, he wont end up a good dutiful king.

...then again i may have been watching way too much "Merlin" and Bradley James = Aegon in my mind so I'm too invested emotionally.

[David C. Hunter]

Personally I think Aegon is Illyrio's son by his dead wife who was just some Essosian Vallyrian descendant. Illyrio's story about his and Varys' shared past shows that they'll love to cheat the highborn with such a fantastic swindle.

Varys calls Aegon by his first name as a term of endearment. He demonstrates to us in it that he has a heart and it's been captured by the concept of King Aegon, just like Illyrio loves his wife and son.

I 1000% agree with this. The greatest Mummer's joke of all time

[Ibbison from Ibben]

If you have any dialogue of Tyrions casting doubt as to Aegons authenticity as a true targaryen then post it. (I do hope you have more than one sarcastic line vs plenty of other lines that clearly show is quite positive of Aegon's lineage.

"Who better to raise Prince Rhaegar’s infant

son than Prince Rhaegar’s dear friend Jon Connington,

once Lord of Griffin’s Roost and Hand of the King?”

I would say that one un-ambigous statement from Tyrion pretty much sums up his thoughts on the true lineage of Aegon.

I do not think your conclusion is correct, frankly. Here's why.

Tyrion is a guest on the boat. He wants to be taken to Dany so he can return to Westeros for revenge. So Tyrion has a motive to want to remain on the boat.

Griff has already threatened to kick Tyrion off the boat if he isn't useful or proves to be a problem. So Tyrion isn't going to go out of his way to antagonize the folks on the boat. (At least not too much.) In other words, if Tyrion doesn't think Young Griff is Aegon, or if he has doubts, he's not going to say so to Griff and Co. He's going to play along so he stay on board and reach Dany.

The more more revealing Tyrion quotes would be those he thinks to himself internally. What he says out loud to Griff reveals little about what he actually believes.

I for one don't believe Young Griff is Aegon, because if Baby Aegon had not been rendered unrecognizable (and that was literally impossible to anticipate), the baby-switching plot would never have worked. Pycelle (amongst others) would have noticed the difference. The baby-switching story had to have been made up after Baby Aegon got his head smashed in.

[Ser Illin']

Ser Illin, on 02 September 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

If the only thing you've got left to say is that "Tyrion doesn't know" != "Tyrion is wrong," then I think we're done.

This is exactly why I discourage people from delving in mundane off the wall theories. Sir you cant even keep track of your own arguments.

It is you who said that since Tryion does not know who Joffrey's real murderer is that it equates to him being wrong, it is you who said that because Tyrion couldnt predict Tywin Lannisters arrival at Blackwater that this is proof that he has been wrong.

Take a deep breath, center yourself and focus on your argument.

In the midst of the condescension, perhaps you misread what I said. Or maybe you don't know that "!=" is a common way to abbreviate "not equal to."

[baxus]

In the midst of the condescension, perhaps you misread what I said. Or maybe you don't know that "!=" is a common way to abbreviate "not equal to."

in my country, most people wouldn't get that since another symbol is commonly used for "not equal to", and "!=" is commonly used only among people with some experience in programming.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

I do not think your conclusion is correct, frankly. Here's why.

Tyrion is a guest on the boat. He wants to be taken to Dany so he can return to Westeros for revenge. So Tyrion has a motive to want to remain on the boat.

Griff has already threatened to kick Tyrion off the boat if he isn't useful or proves to be a problem. So Tyrion isn't going to go out of his way to antagonize the folks on the boat. (At least not too much.) In other words, if Tyrion doesn't think Young Griff is Aegon, or if he has doubts, he's not going to say so to Griff and Co. He's going to play along so he stay on board and reach Dany.

The more more revealing Tyrion quotes would be those he thinks to himself internally. What he says out loud to Griff reveals little about what he actually believes.

I for one don't believe Young Griff is Aegon, because if Baby Aegon had not been rendered unrecognizable (and that was literally impossible to anticipate), the baby-switching plot would never have worked. Pycelle (amongst others) would have noticed the difference. The baby-switching story had to have been made up after Baby Aegon got his head smashed in.

:agree: As I've mentioned in other threads this baby switching business would have to have perfect timing and some way of ensuring an unrecognizable baby, just doesn't make sense (as much as I want Aegon to be real).

[Arianne Stark]

The one thing that made me suspicious in This quote is This part:

"Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his DUTY, that a king must put his people first...."

Duty? if aegon is rhaegars son shouldn't it be his birthright? Duty is given to someone it's not in their blood

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

The one thing that made me suspicious in This quote is This part:

"Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his DUTY, that a king must put his people first...."

Duty? if aegon is rhaegars son shouldn't it be his birthright? Duty is given to someone it's not in their blood

Interesting catch, its not "Aegon's" birthright but his duty... -_- hmmm.

[ab aeterno]

The one thing that made me suspicious in This quote is This part:

"Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his DUTY, that a king must put his people first...."

Duty? if aegon is rhaegars son shouldn't it be his birthright? Duty is given to someone it's not in their blood

Personally, I would take this relatively neutrally- Stannis is rightfully King but as he says to Davos (paraphrasing) "I was putting my rights before my duties." I think Varys is talking more generally about what makes a good King: good Kings rule for their people not for themselves; Joffrey/Tommen expect to be Kings, Joffrey especially thought that everyone should do what he says, a good King has to do what is right for his people, not what he wants to do. It also hints at a justification for deposing a King who does not live up to his duties; i.e. Charles I of England, Louis XVI etc. and considering the historical inspirations for ASOIAF, it wouldn't be too farfetched. That's how I read it anyway. It could be a hint though.

Edit: It also just confirms why Varys would seek to put Aegon on the throne- 'for the realm' etc.

[Uncle Impe]

In the midst of the condescension, perhaps you misread what I said. Or maybe you don't know that "!=" is a common way to abbreviate "not equal to."

As some one has already pointed out "!=" is indeed not common among us none programmers. But that individual seems to be missing the larger point here. And that is that you have no argument

so you resort to these infantile stunts. I see it majority of debates online. Once some one knows that their argument has been dissolved by logic and reason, they resort to arguments of semantics and grammar, spelling etc. In this case it wont work.

I correctly pointed out that GRRM has used Tyrion's pov to unravel certain mysteries, or puzzles in the book. And in every instance, Tyrion has been right. To which you responded by posting the silly argument that Tryion didnt predict Lord Tywin's arrival at black water, and that Tyrion didnt know who poisoned Joffrey (and more silly arguments of the like) as your rebuttal to my point that Tyrion has always been "right".

Any one with a brain can see that your rebuttal is indeed absurd. It does not even address my assertion that Tyrion has a 100% track record when used by GRRM to unravel certain mysteries. It is you who posted those arguments that imply that not knowing Joffrey's killer for example could be used as an argument against Tyrions track record.

If you are cognizant of the fact that not knowing is not equal to being wrong then why did you post arguments that indicate you think otherwise?

[Uncle Impe]

I do not think your conclusion is correct, frankly. Here's why.

Tyrion is a guest on the boat. He wants to be taken to Dany so he can return to Westeros for revenge. So Tyrion has a motive to want to remain on the boat.

Griff has already threatened to kick Tyrion off the boat if he isn't useful or proves to be a problem. So Tyrion isn't going to go out of his way to antagonize the folks on the boat. (At least not too much.) In other words, if Tyrion doesn't think Young Griff is Aegon, or if he has doubts, he's not going to say so to Griff and Co. He's going to play along so he stay on board and reach Dany.

The more more revealing Tyrion quotes would be those he thinks to himself internally. What he says out loud to Griff reveals little about what he actually believes.

I for one don't believe Young Griff is Aegon, because if Baby Aegon had not been rendered unrecognizable (and that was literally impossible to anticipate), the baby-switching plot would never have worked. Pycelle (amongst others) would have noticed the difference. The baby-switching story had to have been made up after Baby Aegon got his head smashed in.

I dont want to be harsh to you. (lord knows I have been warned quite a few times about my brutal honesty.) So this is what I am going to do. i will politely inform you that this entire post, makes no logical sense at all and that no man who has read the book can figure out what you are saying here. You posted wrong assumptions using some correct facts from the book but reach contradicting conclusions.

There is absolutely no way any say individual can argue your post. It simply makes no sense at all. I can only politely suggest that you go back and read just those few Tyrion chapters regarding his meeting with young griff. REad them back to back so you understand them well.

After you do this then come back and correct your post so that it becomes more coherent or come back and insist that your post makes logical sense and give me leave to be as honest as I can about why i find it so absurd that I dont know where to begin breaking it down.

This is why i encourage people not to think too much. You end up confusing yourself so badly you dont know what is up what is down, truth from lie even when the author points it out to you crystal clearly

[Uncle Impe]

:agree: As I've mentioned in other threads this baby switching business would have to have perfect timing and some way of ensuring an unrecognizable baby, just doesn't make sense (as much as I want Aegon to be real).

But your argument that he is a "feigned boy" makes more sense because it would be easier who Illyrio to birth his own son with some whore, and endow the boy with Targaryen hair (some hair they were hiding from the realm) and eyes of his father along with the facial features of the dead king.

Seriously, that makes more sense

[shadowbinding shoe]

Uncle Impe, are you a troll?

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

But your argument that he is a "feigned boy" makes more sense because it would be easier who Illyrio to birth his own son with some whore, and endow the boy with Targaryen hair (some hair they were hiding from the realm) and eyes of his father along with the facial features of the dead king.

Seriously, that makes more sense

I don't get your point, or quite understand what you're saying, sorry.

Uncle Impe, are you a troll?

LOL short and to the point. I've seen him make some valid posts on other threads but who knows...

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I dont want to be harsh to you. (lord knows I have been warned quite a few times about my brutal honesty.) So this is what I am going to do. i will politely inform you that this entire post, makes no logical sense at all and that no man who has read the book can figure out what you are saying here.

Everyone else seems to be able to figure out what I am saying. I'll make it even simpler for you.

Sometimes Tyrion says things he really doesn't believe, when it suits him to do so. Tyrion is capable of lying, and being devious. I firmly believe the text supports me in this assumption.

You posted wrong assumptions using some correct facts from the book but reach contradicting conclusions.

Please clarify. Please be specific.

There is absolutely no way any say individual can argue your post. It simply makes no sense at all.

Incorrect.

I'm saying Tyrion thinks one thing and says another. Surely that is arguable. An example in my favor: When Tyrion beats Young Griff at cryvasse and YG sweeps the pieces onto the floor, Tyrion comments to himself, "He may be a Targaryen after all." I interpret this as meaning that Tyrion doesn't believe YG is really Aegon VI, but the overly emotional response would be typical of an emotionally unstable person, which was a trait of some Targs. Tyrion says out loud, however, that he believes YG is Aegon VI. (That what what your boldface quote that I criticized said.) Tyrion is being sarcastic when he says YG may after all be a Targ. You may interpret this differently, but both sides could be debated.

After you do this then come back and correct your post so that it becomes more coherent

The post has not been edited. It is clearly marked as such.

This is why i encourage people not to think too much.

I give you credit for following your own advice. I don't, and see no reason to do so.

I apollogize to those who would accuse me of feeding a troll. You may be right. I see it as a form of exercise. Unless better arguments are presented, I will not respond further.

(edited for spelling.)

[Ibbison from Ibben]

My take on Illyrio and Varys' scheme is, they really did plan to put Aegon on the Iron Throne all along but that Aegon is neither a Targaryen nor a Blackfire but simply Illyrio's son by his wife, who may have had enough Valyrian blood to make the boy's appearance Targaryenish (silver hair).

The whole justification by right of blood is kind of funny when we remember who Varys and Illyrio are and where they came from. They're not Westerosi, they don't even come from well to do families. They're self made men who started from nothing. They don't like the system. Also, they're cheats. Why would their life ambition be to restore has-beens to 'their rightful place'? It makes much more sense for Illyrio to want his son to become super-rich and powerful and live the good life and be respected and feared by the high and mighty. Having some Blackfire blood adds nothing to this motivation. Similarly Varys has repeatedly stated his dream that the little people would have a good ruler that would care about them and not play realpolitik games with their corpses. Having someone without the much touted royal blood would actually be better for his goals since he can then reveal to the new king that actually he is just like the small-folk and should therefore sympathize with them.

This is actually a very interesting hypothesis. Young Griff is a commoner. Varys and Illyrio were commoners who feel a properly educated commoner could rule better than a noble. Right?

The problem is that Varys and Illyrio are sending Young Griff to Dany to establish a (fake) legitimacy. But once he reaches Dany, he will have to pass the Dragon Test. Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserion will have to accept him before Dany accepts him, and he needs dragon blood to accomplish that. He can't be a commoner. (Or maybe not?)

If Young Griff is a commoner, Varys anfd Illyrio would probably want to keep him away from Dany and the dragons.

But I fully agree that Varys and Illyrio (especially Varys) would prefer a well educated and well-intentioned commoner over a Targ, if they could get away with it.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

this is one of the primary arguments that points to the fact that Aegon is a blackfyre. Certainly Kevan knew who "Aegon" was, but it was a little weird that Varys didnt say Aegon Targaryen, the sixth of his name

[Uncle Impe]

I do not think your conclusion is correct, frankly. Here's why.

Tyrion is a guest on the boat. He wants to be taken to Dany so he can return to Westeros for revengeSo Tyrion has a motive to want to remain on the boat. So Tyrion isn't going to go out of his way to antagonize the folks on the boat.

(Forgive my quoting you this way but like I said your logic here is so convoluted I cant even barely formulate a linear response.) Half truths are mixed in with complete misunderstanding or scenario, motive etc etc.

This is the first statement that makes no sense at all when you factor in his revelation about Aegon's lineage.

If Tyrion wants to stay on the boat all he has to do is say nothing about Aegon no matter what he suspects. His hosts are hiding Aegons lineage from him for a reason. It is absurd to claim that he has a motive which is to stay on the boat so he reveals to his hosts that he has figured out the very information that they were trying to hide from him. That is the first twistedly illogical thing you say. The outrageous thing about your logic is that Tyrions little speech that breaks down the Young Griff ruse should not have been written because it does the very thing you claim Tryion must not do in order to stay on the boat. That is a) Reveal that he knows the secret every one is trying to hide from him B)Insult the very man who threatened to throw him off the board and continue on his speech even with the same man threatening him as he speaks.

Then you go mixing half truths with the truth (and thats why I say you think too much.) Tyrion does not want to go to Mereen. Not after he discovers Aegons true lineage and the resources he has behind him. That is exactly why he convinces the prince to head back to westeros.

if Tyrion doesn't think Young Griff is Aegon, or if he has doubts, he's not going to say so to Griff and Co.

This is utter rubbish. Again on the same bizarre tangent you started out on. If Tyrion does not think young Griff is not Aegon then why go out of his way to reveal to every one on the boat that he does in fact think it is Aegon, why totally demolish their ruse and name the boy Aegon son of Targaryen? Just so that he can hide the fact that he really doesnt believe the boy is AEgon's son? (That is lunacy of the highest order. I am sorry but I have no other way of putting it)

This is the absurdly wild illogical thought process I was talking about. Half the things you say are so out there that its hard for some one to wrap their heads around what the heck you are thinking. I would love for you to explain yourself on that.

The more more revealing Tyrion quotes would be those he thinks to himself internally. What he says out loud to Griff reveals little about what he actually believes.

WHAT???

Did you seriously read the book? Because Tyrion has at minimum 30 instances of "internal dialogue" or thoughts as you put it where he refers boy Aegon as the prince he indeed believes him to be. Stack that against one statement which you obviously misunderstood and then come back and make that argument. Any one would tell you that you are nuts. There is not a single quote that can be attributed to Tyrion where he casts any doubts as to who Aegon is. Internal or otherwise.

The one quote "He is a Targaryen afterall" (or something close to that) is one which is completely misunderstood by you and others. The statement is actually a very common reaffirmation of a child's parentage very commonly used in literature. It is indeed silly if not comical to allege that its a statement that casts doubt on a person's birth right. It is used in various ways the most common of which is "He is his father's son" "She is her father's daughter". "He is a Targaryen afterall" is just another way of saying "he is his father's son"

It is really comical to see how many people misunderstood such a commonly used phrase. (and yet another reason why I suggest that some should avoid thinking too hard.

[Uncle Impe]

this is one of the primary arguments that points to the fact that Aegon is a blackfyre. Certainly Kevan knew who "Aegon" was, but it was a little weird that Varys didnt say Aegon Targaryen, the sixth of his name

Its not weird at all because Kevan had just left a meeting where he had just been told of Aegons landing,