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Who will come to Sansa's rescue


SonOfWinter

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This just shows you completely misunderstood what went on. Ned had already told Cersei his plans, not Sansa. If planning was crucial then Ned totally screwed it up by revealing his plans to Cersei before his daughters were out of King's Landing. If he was that concerned over timing like you insist then that would have been done. Saying Sansa was 'betraying' him by going to Cersei doesn't add up because Ned had already awared Cersei of his plans. Furthermore, it completely ignores the reason Sansa went to Cersei in the first place. Sansa felt guilty because she usually did what she was told. Arya by contrast didn't. This had nothing to do with her feeling like a 'traitor' as much as you'd wish. She was rebelling from being docile and her one act of rebellion went sour. The quotes you've used have been spun out of context and ignores everything that happened timeline specific. And I already told you what Cersei was trying to do with that quote stated but it seems you'd rather go for a simplistic and inaccurate interpretation just to glorify Arya and bash Sansa.

Yes, Ned screwed the most. But Sansa did betray him. She didn't know Cersei already knew, therefore when she went to her and told everything she knew about her father's plan even after he'd told her not to do so, she did betray him. It probably haven't changed much, but that was only because of Ned.

Who is glorifying Arya? Her name barely appears in post you quoted.

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It is a lie because Cersei telling of the story doesn't make sense. Ned's action and revelations to Cersei was all the more crucial thus blaming Sansa is ridiculous. Ned was the one who went to Cersei without securing that his daughters had left King's Landing and showed her his cards. Cersei was able to act because of it. All Sansa did was to go the queen to plea to stay because she thought she loved Joffrey. The only thing that her going to the queen affected was the timing. Ned had already told Cersei his plans. Sansa didn't go to Cersei to sell her father down the bridge because he didn't reveal to her or Arya what the hell was going on. She had no idea about her fathers plans thus its inaccurate to say she 'betrayed' him. Cersei in that above conversation was attempting to hide from Tyrion (under the impression he didn't know) the part about her liaisons with Jamie being found out by Ned. To say that after Ned literally shot himself in the foot is disingenuous. Its simplistic and incredibly inaccurate.

Eddard to Sansa in AGOT (Sansa's own chapter): "It's better if no one knows of our plans."

Later Septa Mordane says to her: "I am certain your father knows what is best for you."

I'm pretty sure she didn;t want to betray her father.

But what she did was that she betrayed his plans, which sadly triggered Cersei's actions and subsequently led to Ned's downfall and death, the death of her Septa and the death of the men of Winterfell that were in Ned's guard.

Sansa did not want to leave Joffrey, this is understandable.

But she knew he could not be trusted, she knew he lied about what happened at the Trident.

His lie led to Lady's death.

I think Sansa's choice was not out of malice, but even so it triggered a lot of deaths.

ETA Ow ... and I'm pretty sure Ned had not told Cersei his plans at that time. Cersei acted after she heard from Sansa that the plan was to smuggle her out of Kings Landing and out of her reach, losing her a valuable hostage.

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It would be a lot more satisfying for Sansa to engineer her own rescue, signifying a sea change in her development from spoiled cloistered child to actual citizen of the real world. But she would definitely need to come across some assistance and I agree that the Blackfish is a strong candidate- he's a much underused character so far- very capable but has not done much yet. Bit like Howland Reed in that regard.

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Yes, Ned screwed the most. But Sansa did betray him. She didn't know Cersei already knew, therefore when she went to her and told everything she knew about her father's plan even after he'd told her not to do so, she did betray him. It probably haven't changed much, but that was only because of Ned.

Who is glorifying Arya? Her name barely appears in post you quoted.

How could she betray him if she wasn't aware of the plans that he was making? Ned didn't tell her what was going on so how was she to know the stakes that were at play for someone to say what she didn't wasn't simply stupid rather a betrayal. The misuse of the word betray is the key issue here. Betrayal indicates a form of malice which Sansa's actions had no traces off which people seem to ignore just to lambaste her. Do you call every instance a child doesn't do as their parents say an instance of betrayal? Did Sansa understand the circumstances in which where operating? What safe guarding did Ned undertake that the words of Sansa somehow was the end thing that ended him?

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How could she betray him if she wasn't aware of the plans that he was making? Ned didn't tell her what was going on so how was she to know the stakes that were at play for someone to say what she didn't wasn't simply stupid rather a betrayal. The misuse of the word betray is the key issue here. Betrayal indicates a form of malice which Sansa's actions had no traces off which people seem to ignore just to lambaste her. Do you call every instance a child doesn't do as their parents say an instance of betrayal? Did Sansa understand the circumstances in which where operating? What safe guarding did Ned undertake that the words of Sansa somehow was the end thing that ended him?

But she was, he tells her that he is sending her and Arya away. ETA: And this is the plan she betrays to Cersei, fully aware that Ned does not want this plan known by others.

It was only in this particular chapter that it dawned on Ned that Cersei's kids were not Robert, by a chance remark by Sansa.

It was not this that Sansa told Cersei, it was that Ned was planning to send her away.

Remember that at this time Cersei knew that Catelyn had taken Tyrion, she would not let Sansa and Arya get away ETA even if there was little love between her and Tyrion, as a Lannister she had to do something.

I'm pretty sure that Cersei would have acted even if Ned had did not have that little talk with her, where he gave her a chance to save her and her children.

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How could she betray him if she wasn't aware of the plans that he was making? Ned didn't tell her what was going on so how was she to know the stakes that were at play for someone to say what she didn't wasn't simply stupid rather a betrayal. The misuse of the word betray is the key issue here. Betrayal indicates a form of malice which Sansa's actions had no traces off which people seem to ignore just to lambaste her. Do you call every instance a child doesn't do as their parents say an instance of betrayal? Did Sansa understand the circumstances in which where operating? What safe guarding did Ned undertake that the words of Sansa somehow was the end thing that ended him?

I don't think that betraying requires any form of malice, Harwin betrayed Arya when he decided to stick with BwB when their interests collided, Jon did betray Ygritte even when she loved her and Ned betrayed Robert to save Jon, betraying is about choosing loyalty and trust. Sansa isn't actually even loyal to Lannisters only to herself, this is one of her first clumsy attempts to manipulate someone. She wants to manipulate someone who has authority over her father to get what she wants. I'm sure she didn't mean to harm anyone but she is seriously messing with her father's authority in KL (the only thing that keeps her safe) and she knows it.

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Ultimately she was still a child at the time, and still acted as a child, I don't think we can judge her too harshly or hold her accountable for that. I would say that what she did was definitely a betrayal, but actually she was a pawn (as she was all the way through the early books) and too young, weak, naive, frightened to see where Cersei was leading her.

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Ultimately she was still a child at the time, and still acted as a child, I don't think we can judge her too harshly or hold her accountable for that. I would say that what she did was definitely a betrayal, but actually she was a pawn (as she was all the way through the early books) and too young, weak, naive, frightened to see where Cersei was leading her.

Huh? She witnessed Cersei ordering her wolf killed, while Cersei knew her wolf was not the wolf that attacked Joffrey.

How could she not see that Cersei was not to be trusted?

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Huh? She witnessed Cersei ordering her wolf killed, while Cersei knew her wolf was not the wolf that attacked Joffrey.

How could she not see that Cersei was not to be trusted?

Because she was a child that had never encountered malevolence before. To her, grown-ups, and especially the queen of Westeros, were authority figures, and worthy of respect. What happened to Lady shook her world view, but Lady's death was not enough to destroy it. As her own father did not intervene to save Lady, she may have started to believe that there was some justice in what happened to her wolf.

If trust was lost, Eddard Stark lost more than Cersei did. He had more of it to lose. Her father's failure to protect Lady obscured Cersei's part in Lady's death. A grown-up would have understood that there was nothing that Eddard Stark could do for Lady, and would have blamed Cersei. A child still believing in her father's omnipotence would be crushed, and blame him instead. And her sister who also had a part in what happened. And maybe even herself, later on.

I don't think it would have changed the course of events if she had spoken out for Lady, if she had told the truth about what happened. But there is no way that Sansa can know that. So she could very well believe that Cersei would not have acted as she did had she but known that Lady did not attack Joffrey.

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Also he would have to pass Moat Calin which is (IIRC) held by the Boltons and kind of a drag to pass.

I guess an army couldnt pass Moat Cailin, but it must be relatively easy for a lone man.

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Because she was a child that had never encountered malevolence before. To her, grown-ups, and especially the queen of Westeros, were authority figures, and worthy of respect. What happened to Lady shook her world view, but Lady's death was not enough to destroy it. As her own father did not intervene to save Lady, she may have started to believe that there was some justice in what happened to her wolf.

If trust was lost, Eddard Stark lost more than Cersei did. He had more of it to lose. Her father's failure to protect Lady obscured Cersei's part in Lady's death. A grown-up would have understood that there was nothing that Eddard Stark could do for Lady, and would have blamed Cersei. A child still believing in her father's omnipotence would be crushed, and blame him instead. And her sister who also had a part in what happened. And maybe even herself, later on.

I don't think it would have changed the course of events if she had spoken out for Lady, if she had told the truth about what happened. But there is no way that Sansa can know that. So she could very well believe that Cersei would not have acted as she did had she but known that Lady did not attack Joffrey.

Of course no one should blame Sansa. I don't blame her for what she did, she is not guilty of betrayal or something like that.

That would be silly, Ned would be the first to forgive her.

But understanding context doesn't erase what happened to her and others because Sansa made her choices, one should not close one's eyes for what happened.

Personally I find Sansa's character arc fascinating, mostly because how GRRM places her choices next to the ones her sister makes.

In seeing what Joff and Cersei really were, seeing beyond the surface, Arya was the more grown-up of the two sisters.

As Bran and Jon she could not be fooled by smiles, status and beauty.

Arya became 'stable-wise', she talked to the people of Winterfell and in so doing developed a knowledge of people.

Sansa never tried to get out of her comfort zone, she did not became 'people-wise'.

Sadly she paid for it, and others.

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Of course no one should blame Sansa. I don't blame her for what she did, she is not guilty of betrayal or something like that.

That would be silly, Ned would be the first to forgive her.

But understanding context doesn't erase what happened to her and others because Sansa made her choices, one should not close one's eyes for what happened.

Personally I find Sansa's character arc fascinating, mostly because how GRRM places her choices next to the ones her sister makes.

In seeing what Joff and Cersei really were, seeing beyond the surface, Arya was the more grown-up of the two sisters.

As Bran and Jon she could not be fooled by smiles, status and beauty.

Arya became 'stable-wise', she talked to the people of Winterfell and in so doing developed a knowledge of people.

Sansa never tried to get out of her comfort zone, she did not became 'people-wise'.

Sadly she paid for it, and others.

:agree: thats why i want Sansa arc to develop as a redemption ala Jaime....I really hated her in GoT after the Trident lies, the butcher's boy death and of course after running to tell Cersei about Ned's plan.

Still GRRM has shown that no character is beyond redemption....for the seven hells Jaime and Sandor have a way more evil record than she has.

Some of you are speculating about her becoming a darker/evil character, a Cersei v2.0....that would really make mad after all she has gone thougth to get out of her "naivity crystal box". If she indeed becomes an evil character...well, I'll start hating her again like I did in GoT :laugh:

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Sansa's story is sort of a Bildungsroman but for a woman, she has to become more self aware and less utterly useless in order to make amends for her previous pointless little girlness.

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I know there is a ton of Sansa love on this board, but the character has shown me very little in the way of being able to take charge of her own situation.

Like many here, I do recognize that Sansa has been maturing, but it seems highly unlikely that she will be able to escape LF all by herself. That schemer has her completely under wraps. LF has her close and under a false identity. If you think for a second that LF really intends to do anything with Sansa besides marry her himself, you are being a bit delusional. Whats worse, there is a massive prize on Sansa's head, so LF knows that she will not be able to reveal her identity to anyone anytime soon.

Sansa is maturing and becoming less and less the arrogant, ignorant, little princess that she was in the early books, but she will need help escaping LF (if she ever does). If I was a betting man, I'd place my bets on Sandor, The Blackfish, or a combination of the two ultimately getting to Sansa (really, IMO it will be The Hound because he will be able to immediately see through Alayne's disguise whereas the others will not).

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It's Shaddrick who will move things forward in the Vale.

He's searching for Sansa. He won't be fooled by Alayna long - Randa wasn't.

He's no longer safe and secluded in the Eyrie and no longer has Sansa all to himself - Petyr just might make a run for it. Take Sansa and a few sellswords and all the gold he's looted over the years and head to the Free Cities. It'd be a huge risk but if he's forced out of the Vale(and not imprisoned or killed now that the Lannisters and Tyrells are busy fighting each other) then he has to go somewhere, right?

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my prediction, Shagga son of dolf. littlefinger is tased with setting the vale to rights and as such one of the things hes got to deal with are the now armed and armored mountain tribes. the mountain tribes are first men and will be somewhat culturally familiar to sansa.their previous ties to her husband may put them in her good graces. petyr is her enemy and my enemies enemy is my friend.

as far as the "betrayal" i see it differently. when ned promised sansa to joffrey he thinks to wed stark to bratheon, but instead makes her a lannister. when she testifies against arya she is doing what she has been raised to do, side with her husband against all opposition. it is at this point ned kills her direwolf. this is a very powerful intervention because all of the stark children are wargs and thier wolves reflect thier character. sansa is no longer a northern "lady" she again responds as shes been taught when ned attempts to bring her home. shes a stark, she does what she thinks is right and sides with her husband. its my prediction that we will se this character trait come to surface again when sansa wargs her true comanion. a lion.

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This idea just occurred to me and it is definitely a long shot, but what about Stannis? He has the northmen at his back and after he defeats the Boltons (which seems to be the most likely outcome in the north) they will want to rebuild Winterfell under a Stark. We don't know how well Davos is doing with finding Rickon, but if word somehow got out that Sansa was in the Vale then who would be the most likely to flock to her other than the northmen? The only way Stannis would be able to keep them on his side would be to team up with her. Plus he would have the help of the entire army of the Vale which hasn't been used in this war at all. Just a thought.....

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