"We were certain the bleeding star was the comet, what fools we were"

[Cat of the Canal Girl]

You know, if what you say about the bleeding being just real blood is true, that's another example of how shitty prophecies are: "the bleeding star was the sword Dawn that was bloodied at the moment (of course, the sword Dawn was bloodied all the time, since the Daynes used it to fight and kill), the smoke is the vapor coming out of the wounds (if the sword is bleeding, it has been used on somebody, isn`t it?), and the salt are the tears (you know, I bet a lot of people shed tears when skewered with Dawn)...so essentially, Azor Ahai will appear when somebody is wounded with Dawn, which has happened like a million times during the last thousand years"...and that's assuming you already know the meaning of each word of the prophecy...no wonder Marwyn distrust prophecies, they are useless...

I agree, in concept, that prophecies are stupid. Their connection to reality usually becomes clear only after the real event happened.

Yet, that is the nature of what we are dealing with.

[Buried Treasure]

Many Targayrens have prophetic dreams. Daemon Blackfyre and Daeron the Drunken (the son of Maekar) had them, so Aemon probably has them too. I think Aemon watched the future when he was slowly dying of fever.

I wouldn't go as far as to say most, but agree some Targaryens definately have prophetic dreams. I also agree that Aemon's fever seemed to awaken a latent ability which he had not previously exhibited.

I was recently looking up Aemon's line to Sam in Bravos about his brothers dreaming of dragons (though IMO only Daeron's dreams were magic and the others merely desired dragons) and noticed something very interesting. He says it after he wakes from a dream of dragons wings beating above the snow and that dream also contained a red / bleeding star (I forget which). If Aemon really was having a prophetic dream either the bleeding star prophecy has not yet been fulfilled or it will be fulfilled more than once.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I wouldn't go as far as to say most, but agree some Targaryens definately have prophetic dreams. I also agree that Aemon's fever seemed to awaken a latent ability which he had not previously exhibited.

I was recently looking up Aemon's line to Sam in Bravos about his brothers dreaming of dragons (though IMO only Daeron's dreams were magic and the others merely desired dragons) and noticed something very interesting. He says it after he wakes from a dream of dragons wings beating above the snow and that dream also contained a red / bleeding star (I forget which). If Aemon really was having a prophetic dream either the bleeding star prophecy has not yet been fulfilled or it will be fulfilled more than once.

The red comet/bleeding star is still in the sky and bright enough that it can be seen during the day. He may have just had a vision of the winter to come. I would love to see a quote though, if you can dig it up.

[Buried Treasure]

Home from work now so I actually have the books in front of me. It's when they are actually still in Bravos rather than Sam remembering back:

"Dragons," Aemon whispered. "The grief and glory of my House they were."

"The last dragon died before before you were born," said Sam. "How could you remember them?"

"I see them in my dreams, Sa, I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath."

Now I read it back I realise it isn't definately saying that the red star bleeding will happen at the same time as the dragons on the snow, but it does suggest as much to me.

I had no idea the comet was still hanging about. I remember it being around for ages through ACOK but don't recall it recently. Whose seen it?

[Budj]

Is it wrong of me to read into that quote of dragon shadows on snow? Aemon may very well have been having dragon dreams - just not listening to the real message.

I think due to process of elimination that Dany is the last hope he has for Aerys and Rhaella's line to produce tptwp. Not sure what he thinks the second bleeding star is though...

[FittleLinger]

Home from work now so I actually have the books in front of me. It's when they are actually still in Bravos rather than Sam remembering back:

Now I read it back I realise it isn't definately saying that the red star bleeding will happen at the same time as the dragons on the snow, but it does suggest as much to me.

I had no idea the comet was still hanging about. I remember it being around for ages through ACOK but don't recall it recently. Whose seen it?

My original quote is from later - Aemon is dead and Sam is on the ship and remembers. The one that Aemon suddenly realizes that bleeding star is not the comet.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Home from work now so I actually have the books in front of me. It's when they are actually still in Bravos rather than Sam remembering back:

Now I read it back I realise it isn't definately saying that the red star bleeding will happen at the same time as the dragons on the snow, but it does suggest as much to me.

I had no idea the comet was still hanging about. I remember it being around for ages through ACOK but don't recall it recently. Whose seen it?

It's been there for a few years now so its no big deal to most. People comment on it from time to time though. I believe Jon comments on it, in his last,or second to last chapter in ADWD.

[Dragonfish]

The OP is leaving out important context. Here is the full quote:

"No one ever looked for a girl [...] It was the prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought...the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was the certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. [...]" (After this he gives his familiar explanation about dragons being neither male or female, and therefore Dany must be the PWWP).

I think it's clear from context that the line "what fools we were" isn't referring to the specific notion that the comet was the bleeding star, but to the general notion that the PWWP had to be male.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

The OP is leaving out important context. Here is the full quote:

"No one ever looked for a girl [...] It was the prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought...the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was the certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. [...]" (After this he gives his familiar explanation about dragons being neither male or female, and therefore Dany must be the PWWP).

I think it's clear from context that the line "what fools we were" isn't referring to the specific notion that the comet was the bleeding star, but to the general notion that the PWWP had to be male.

It's probably worth noting that shooting stars were seen at the births of many of the more recent Targaryons. Dany for sure, I believe also Aegon, and I briefly recall mention of one being present at Summer hall. Nothing at the Tower of Joy though, unless you include the fall of Ser Arthur Dayne.

[FittleLinger]

The OP is leaving out important context. Here is the full quote:

"No one ever looked for a girl [...] It was the prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought...the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was the certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. [...]" (After this he gives his familiar explanation about dragons being neither male or female, and therefore Dany must be the PWWP).

I think it's clear from context that the line "what fools we were" isn't referring to the specific notion that the comet was the bleeding star, but to the general notion that the PWWP had to be male.

I think it refers to both. Doesn't the bolded part have this notion in it. Even if you leave out the "fool" part, isn't the wording "was certain...had to be..." speak to you that it was not? I don't think it's some weird sense only I have.

[Dragonfish]

It's probably worth noting that shooting stars were seen at the births of many of the more recent Targaryons. Dany for sure, I believe also Aegon, and I briefly recall mention of one being present at Summer hall. Nothing at the Tower of Joy though, unless you include the fall of Ser Arthur Dayne.

No one has ever mentioned that a comet was present on the night of Rhaegar's birth.

I think it refers to both. Doesn't the bolded part have this notion in it. Even if you leave out the "fool" part, isn't the wording "was certain...had to be..." speak to you that it was not? I don't think it's some weird sense only I have.

I don't see it. The entire point of this passage is that Aemon realizes they were all wrong in thinking the PWWP had to be male. Note that when he says they were all fools, he immediately follows up by explaining what their error was, and at no point does he mention the comet. The comment about the comet is just an aside explaining why Rhaegar once thought Aegon was the PWWP.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

No one has ever mentioned that a comet was present on the night of Rhaegar's birth.

I just mentioned it. BAM! :smug:

[Dragonfish]

I just mentioned it. BAM! :smug:

Well, using that logic, I just mentioned it as well. Which means that my sentence was a paradox. Your mind=blown.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Well, using that logic, I just mentioned it as well. Which means that my sentence was a paradox. Your mind=blown.

Neg.

[three-eyed monkey]

I don't see it. The entire point of this passage is that Aemon realizes they were all wrong in thinking the PWWP had to be male. Note that when he says they were all fools, he immediately follows up by explaining what their error was, and at no point does he mention the comet. The comment about the comet is just an aside explaining why Rhaegar once thought Aegon was the PWWP.

Yeah, that's how I read it anyway. What fools they were to miss the gender-neutral nature of the word "prince." And fool again if he thinks it's Dany.

[lostcause]

You know, if what you say about the bleeding being just real blood is true, that's another example of how shitty prophecies are: "the bleeding star was the sword Dawn that was bloodied at the moment (of course, the sword Dawn was bloodied all the time, since the Daynes used it to fight and kill), the smoke is the vapor coming out of the wounds (if the sword is bleeding, it has been used on somebody, isn`t it?), and the salt are the tears (you know, I bet a lot of people shed tears when skewered with Dawn)...so essentially, Azor Ahai will appear when somebody is wounded with Dawn, which has happened like a million times during the last thousand years"...and that's assuming you already know the meaning of each word of the prophecy...no wonder Marwyn distrust prophecies, they are useless...

Well if it's a bleeding star, not just any blood would do, but rather the blood of the star (in case of the sword, it's wielder). So the prophecy is fulfilled the times anyone wielding Dawn, is slain, as I see it.

[Franz95]

The OP is leaving out important context. Here is the full quote:

"No one ever looked for a girl [...] It was the prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought...the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was the certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. [...]" (After this he gives his familiar explanation about dragons being neither male or female, and therefore Dany must be the PWWP).

I think it's clear from context that the line "what fools we were" isn't referring to the specific notion that the comet was the bleeding star, but to the general notion that the PWWP had to be male.

I kind of agree with it. The "what fools we were" is referring to the fact that they were looking for Azor Ahai's rebirth behind every corner (kind of what we do on the board :D) and actually ignored the lack of evidence in most cases (no star for Rhaegar, no smoke and salt for Aegon). I don't think Aemon cares about finding the bleeding star, the dragons are evidence enough for him.

[FittleLinger]

Okay guys, I might not be the only person in the world to read it that way. I am sure I cannot be.

Look, if I was making a case of myself being wrong and being a fool, I would say:

I was wrong about X, I got Y wrong, and I misenterpreted Z. I was such a fool.

You are saying that only X matters in this situation. Okay, why would I mention Z (the bleeding star being the comet) if this is actually the one thing I don't think I got wrong, and one of the very few things that don't make me a fool, since I think it's true?

[Budj]

I go back to what I said above. With the full context of the quote he is referring to Dany. Aemon is discounting evidence and focusing on the non-gender specific valryian prince term because Dany - as far as he knows - is the only remaining Targ from Aerys' line. He is still just as biased.

I have hopes that Sam starts researching this prophecy and puts pieces together...he is probably the last remaining person that is smart enough to figure it out.

[Dragonfish]

Okay guys, I might not be the only person in the world to read it that way. I am sure I cannot be.

Look, if I was making a case of myself being wrong and being a fool, I would say:

I was wrong about X, I got Y wrong, and I misenterpreted Z. I was such a fool.

You are saying that only X matters in this situation. Okay, why would I mention Z (the bleeding star being the comet) if this is actually the one thing I don't think I got wrong, and one of the very few things that don't make me a fool, since I think it's true?

Well, first of all, Aemon never says he misinterpreted the "bleeding star" line. He only mentions that Rhaegar was sure the bleeding star had to be a comet. So your analogy isn't exactly correct.

Second of all, as I said before, everything regarding the comet and the salt and tears from Summerhall strikes me as an aside explaining why he and Rhaegar came to believe that certain people were the PWWP. He's basically saying, "This was our reasoning in this case and this case, but our conclusion turned out to be wrong because we misinterpreted this other fundamental thing." He's not saying that their original reasoning was incorrect, only that they were applying it to the wrong person due to a translation error.