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"We were certain the bleeding star was the comet, what fools we were"


FittleLinger

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No, but the prophecy doesn't say that Azor Ahai will be born every time there is a bleeding star, or every time that there is salt and smoke in a particular location.

It just says that when he is born, those circumstances will happen to be in place.

This weekend I was smoking a pork shoulder that I had soaked in a brine the night before. Prophecy fulfilled. :drunk:
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@FittleLinger--

I'm going to use an analogy that I think will help.

Let's imagine that we're traveling along a path that forks at a certain point into two paths. Our travel guide is written in another language so we occasionally have trouble following it, but we're pretty sure that it is telling us to go right. So we go right. We then have to figure out where to go from there, and on that point our guide is once again unclear. For example, perhaps the guide uses an idiom which we think refers to crossing a river on a bridge, but we're not entirely sure. At some point we come to just such a bridge, and so our confidence in our interpretation of this idiom grows. Unfortunately, soon enough we realize that we could have been mistaken when we chose the right path over the left path earlier, before we even reached the bridge. The word in the guide which we took to mean "right" could actually be construed to mean right or left (now wouldn't that be the most confusing language ever?). So now we're not certain if we even started on the correct path in the first place.

Now, here's the important part: the fact that we may have taken the wrong path in the beginning does not mean that our interpretation of the idiom is incorrect. It may very well be that if we go back and take the left path, we'll come across yet another bridge and be once again satisfied that we are correct. Even if our friends call us up and tell us they arrived at our destination by taking the left path, we still can't be certain that our understanding of the idiom is incorrect. The only thing we can be certain of is that we shouldn't have taken the path to the right.

This is akin to how Aemon and Rhaegar erred. They went down the right path (thinking that the PWWP had to be male), unaware that the left path was also a viable possibility. They then came to believe that the idiom on the guide referred to a bridge (i.e., they thought the "bleeding star" line referred to a comet). Later, however, after Rhaegar and his family had died, Aemon received what he considered to be proof that Dany is the PWWP (this is akin to our friends calling us up to tell us they arrived at our destination). This makes him realize that he and Rhaegar should have taken the left path all along. However, as in our example, at no point does this imply that their interpretation of the "bleeding star" line (or in our analogy, the bridge-idiom) is incorrect, only that they started out their journey on the wrong path. When Aemon bemoans what fools he and Rhaegar were, he is only referring to the fact that they took the wrong path in the beginning, not that they misinterpreted later parts of the travel guide.

Of course, Aemon is working backward from the belief that Dany is the PWWP. I doubt he's even bothered to figure out how the "bleeding star" or "salt and tears" lines refer to her. To him, the fact that she has dragons is proof enough that she is the PWWP. All the other requirements are details that, in his mind, will probably be found to apply to her somehow. So at this point, I don't think he's even sure what the "bleeding star" line refers to anymore. He's just certain that Dany is the one, and everything else flows from that assumption.

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the bleeding star is the sigil of ser patrek that wun weg wun dar wun killed ( jon snow AA) bowen marsh tears + smoke from wounds

Patrek's bleeding star sits in for the Dallas Cowboys being whipped by the New York Giants. SOmething about a bet with someone named Patrick IIRC.

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OK guys, maybe you're right, I'm not convinced, doesn't matter. So, from all the excessive amount of convincing me I couldn't possibly be right, I get the impression you think Aemon thinks the comet is the bleeding star. OK, be that as it may, why are you so passionate about it? What theory you strongly support will be crashed to pieces if the comet is not the bleeding star?

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OK guys, maybe you're right, I'm not convinced, doesn't matter. So, from all the excessive amount of convincing me I couldn't possibly be right, I get the impression you think Aemon thinks the comet is the bleeding star. OK, be that as it may, why are you so passionate about it? What theory you strongly support will be crashed to pieces if the comet is not the bleeding star?

You seem to be getting awfully upset about people not agreeing with you. No one is saying you "couldn't possibly be right". Most are just saying that they don't agree with your interpretation of the text given the context in which it was said by Maester Aemon. Obviously since it is a prophecy we could all be wrong.

If anyone is being passionate about it, it's you right now. :lol:

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You seem to be getting awfully upset about people not agreeing with you. No one is saying you "couldn't possibly be right". Most are just saying that they don't agree with your interpretation of the text given the context in which it was said by Maester Aemon. Obviously since it is a prophecy we could all be wrong.

If anyone is being passionate about it, it's you right now. :lol:

I'm not upset about people not agreeing with me, it's just that I made a fair point - they say they were fools, and list the things they got wrong. And people are somewhat weirdly saying that yes, these things were wrong, all except for one. The one that comes right before the statement "we were fools". Not even one person agreed I could be right, which is weird, because it seems to indicate my assumption was ridiculous, which I think is not. So I assumed if I were right, then some big solid famous theory would be dismissed, so I asked if that was the case.

Yes, maybe I overreacted in my last post, but it really is weird.

I'll make my point again. Lets say I'm telling a story. It goes like:

"Man I was so drunk last night. I peed on some guy's car, I broke a bank window, I fell asleep on the street, and I ate a sandwich". Why would I mention the sandwich - it doesn't contribute to the point that I was drunk. Same with "Rhaegar thought it had to be the comet. We thought we were so wise". Why would he mention Rhaegar thought it had to be if it doesn't contribute to the point that they read the prophecy wrong?

This being said, I don't think Dany is PTWP. I'm not saying this. I'm saying Aemon thinks Dany is PTWP, and Aemon thinks the bleeding star is not the comet.

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I'm not upset about people not agreeing with me, it's just that I made a fair point - they say they were fools, and list the things they got wrong.

No, again, Aemon doesn't say he got the comet thing wrong. He mentions that Rhaegar thought the bleeding star had to be a comet, but he never said that specific idea was wrong. He does state that they were both wrong in their conclusions concerning who the PWWP was, but then he goes on to explain that their false conclusion was based on the erroneous assumption that the PWWP had to be male. The comet reference was just an explanation of Rhaegar's rationale at the time, based on this assumption.

And people are somewhat weirdly saying that yes, these things were wrong, all except for one. The one that comes right before the statement "we were fools".

You have to get over the fact that the comet reference comes right before the "what fools we were" line. Proximity doesn't always indicate relation in language, especially when separated by sentences. Focus on what the main idea of the whole passage is. Notice that the only explicit error Aemon bemoans is the assumption that it had to be a "prince who was promised." Beyond this, I don't know what else to say. I thought I gave a good enough analogy in my last post, but I guess it fell short.

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No, again, Aemon doesn't say he got the comet thing wrong. He mentions that Rhaegar thought the bleeding star had to be a comet, but he never said that specific idea was wrong. He does state that they were both wrong in their conclusions concerning who the PWWP was, but then he goes on to explain that their false conclusion was based on the erroneous assumption that the PWWP had to be male. The comet reference was just an explanation of Rhaegar's rationale at the time, based on this assumption.

You have to get over the fact that the comet reference comes right before the "what fools we were" line. Proximity doesn't always indicate relation in language, especially when separated by sentences. Focus on what the main idea of the whole passage is. Notice that the only explicit error Aemon bemoans is the assumption that it had to be a "prince who was promised." Beyond this, I don't know what else to say. I thought I gave a good enough analogy in my last post, but I guess it fell short.

No no, you did give a good analogy, it didn't fall short, but it didn't convince me. And my main point isn't that it's right before the statement "we were fools", but I don't think it's something to be dismissed either.

I'm not as stubborn as it may seem and I'm not afraid to admit I am wrong. I will read the passage again having in mind your point of view and turning mine off, and will see if I get convinced I'm wrong.

EDIT: Here is the extract again

"No one ever looked for a girl [...] It was the prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought...the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later [This means it was not Rhaegar - and the prophecy smoke was not from summerhall, and the prophecy salt was not from the tears]he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, [it was not Aegon, why can't we assume the sign, which they thought was showing Aegon, was wrong too? After all, it was not Aegon] and Rhaegar was the certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! [They were wrong before, they are wrong now as well. They thought the comet was the sign showing Aegon, and Aegon turned out not to be the PTWP,] The error crept in from the translation. [...]" [Yes, it was the translation, but this is there to show us why PTWP can be female, not to show us that the other signs were right. After all, if they had two false PTWP, then the signs that were thought to fulfill the prophecy about them should be wrong too, no?] (After this he gives his familiar explanation about dragons being neither male or female, and therefore Dany must be the PWWP).

Note: Underlined stuff is what I think they think, not what I think about the prophecy in general.

Now, I finally got what some people were saying. That Aegon's comet was wrong, but Dany's comet might be the real deal, so the comet is not a wrong sign in general. this would mean Aegon's comet was just a coincidence - since he was not PTWP after all. This is possible, but I just don't get that feeling.

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No no, you did give a good analogy, it didn't fall short, but it didn't convince me. And my main point isn't that it's right before the statement "we were fools", but I don't think it's something to be dismissed either.

I'm not as stubborn as it may seem and I'm not afraid to admit I am wrong. I will read the passage again having in mind your point of view and turning mine off, and will see if I get convinced I'm wrong.

But the evidence you're presenting requires the omission of a large part of the passage in question. That's not exactly convincing anyone either.

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But the evidence you're presenting requires the omission of a large part of the passage in question. That's not exactly convincing anyone either.

I analyzed the whole passage from my point of view, see above :) I am not trying to convince anyone, I just didn't think I was the only person who got that impression from the text.

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OK guys, maybe you're right, I'm not convinced, doesn't matter. So, from all the excessive amount of convincing me I couldn't possibly be right, I get the impression you think Aemon thinks the comet is the bleeding star. OK, be that as it may, why are you so passionate about it? What theory you strongly support will be crashed to pieces if the comet is not the bleeding star?

The comet came when the dragons were born IIRC. I could be a book off there. If the comet isnt the bleeding star I'd be surprised. I have to go read that passage again. Maybe it's Dany on her dragon. They know of Mars and it doesnt sound particularly impressive unless there is some astrologcal meaning.

This may be one of those things we dont have all the facts on yet.

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The comet came when the dragons were born IIRC. I could be a book off there. If the comet isnt the bleeding star I'd be surprised. I have to go read that passage again. Maybe it's Dany on her dragon. They know of Mars and it doesnt sound particularly impressive unless there is some astrologcal meaning.

This may be one of those things we dont have all the facts on yet.

What did you mean "they know of Mars"? And an important note - I'm not saying the bleeding star isn't the comet, I'm saying Aemon thinks the bleeding star isn't the comet.

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^ Yeah, "They know of Mars" has me scratching my head too. Do you mean the Red Star, the Warrior iirc?

I was just ruling out Mars in case someone was thinking of it. NO comment on whether or not it's Dany on her dragon? I favor the comet. Everyone who saw it thought he or she was destined for glory.

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Why would anyone be thinking of it? This is a completely different world from Earth. As far as we know, they don't have any planet they call "Mars."

I thought there was. So maybe someone else did. Jeez, with all the imaginative theories out there, surely there are better things to argue about. Besides, why couldnt the planet have a red planet in the same system.

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I thought there was. So maybe someone else did. Jeez, with all the imaginative theories out there, surely there are better things to argue about. Besides, why couldnt the planet have a red planet in the same system.

Sorry, but there's no evidence of this. And even if there were, there's nothing to say they would call such a planet Mars.

I agree there are better things to argue about, but you're the one who brought the whole thing up. The rest of us are just trying to understand what you meant.

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Sorry, but there's no evidence of this. And even if there were, there's nothing to say they would call such a planet Mars.

I agree there are better things to argue about, but you're the one who brought the whole thing up. The rest of us are just trying to understand what you meant.

I saw a reference to the night sky that made me think of Mars. usually I am not alone in even the craziest of ideas

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I saw a reference to the night sky that made me think of Mars. usually I am not alone in even the craziest of ideas

Maybe there is a reference to a red planet, though I don't recall it. Still, it is highly doubtful that this planet is called Mars, which makes the statement "they know of Mars" a bit baffling. Perhaps it would've been better to phrase it as "they know of a planet that is similar to Mars."

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Hang on! You've just raised something which I have not seen mentioned anywhere else! But I would change it slightly.

If Dawn is the star, then the last time it had blood on it was when Ned and his six companions fought Arthur Dayne and the Kingsguard at the Tower of joy - when Jon was born.

Jon could therefore be said to have been born under the bleeding star.

Great lateral thinking, naming Dawn as the bleeding star.

These sudden realizations never seize to amaze me. Another oh-my-god moment. Thank you.

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