Who killed Joffrey?

[three-eyed monkey]

Here's the relevant part of the thread I mentioned. This was posted by Happy Ent in 2009.

Joff is standing next to Tyrion, near Tyrion's seat. Garlan is probably at his seat, next to Tyrion. (He just said something quietly to Tyrion and Joffrey.) The chalice has just bee emptied (on Tyrion.) Olenna is also close.

Quote

Queen Margaery appeared suddenly at Joffrey's elbow. "My sweet

king," the Tyrell girl entreated, "come, return to your place, there's another singer waiting."

"Alaric of Eysen," said Lady Olenna Tyrell, leaning on her cane and taking no more notice of the wine-soaked dwarf than her granddaughter had done. [...]

"Ser Addam has a toast he wants to make as well," said Margaery. "Your Grace, please."

"I have no wine," Joffrey declared. "How can I drink a toast if I have no wine? Uncle Imp, you can serve me. Since you won't joust you'll be my cupbearer."

"I would be most honored."

"It's not meant to be an honor!" Joffrey screamed. "Bend down and pick up my chalice." Tyrion did as he was bid, but as he reached for the handle Joff kicked the chalice through his legs. "Pick it up! Are you as clumsy as you are ugly?" He had to crawl under the table to find the thing. "Good, now fill it with wine." He claimed a flagon from a serving girl and filled the goblet three-quarters full. "No, on your knees, dwarf." Kneeling, Tyrion raised up the heavy cup, wondering if he was about to get a second bath. But Joffrey took the wedding chalice one-handed, drank deep, and set it on the table. "You can get up now, Uncle."

There. The cup is now full of unpoisoned wine, and on the table. Joff just put it there. The whole room must be staring at them. No chance to poison the wine. Not for Marge, and certainly not for Olenna, who couldn't even reach the lip.

Quote

[...] Joffrey took his queen by the hand. "Come, my lady, it's the pie."

The guests stood, shouting and applauding and smashing their wine cups together as the great pie made its slow way down the length of the hall, wheeled along by a half-dozen beaming cooks.

Joff and Marge are no longer near the chalice. More importantly, everybody's standing. Garlan, at this moment, must be within inches of it. Even more importantly, everybody's looking at the royal couple.

Quote

King Joffrey and his queen met the pie below the dais. As Joff drew his sword, Margaery laid a hand on his arm to restrain him. "Widow's Wail was not meant for slicing pies." [...]

Joffrey and Margaery joined hands to lift the greatsword and swung it down together in a silvery arc. When the piecrust broke, the doves burst forth in a swirl of white feathers, scattering in every direction, flapping for the windows and the rafters. A roar of delight went up from the benches, and the fiddlers and pipers in the gallery began to play a sprightly tune. Joff took his bride in his arms, and whirled her around merrily. [...]

[...][Tyrion] glanced at his father, but Lord Tywin was watching the king.

Right after that, Joffrey comes back:

Quote

The king's chalice was on the table where he'd left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. "My lord," Margaery said, "we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us."

And Joff dies shortly after that. Marge couldn't have poisoned it. Olenna is the only person whose location is unaccounted for in this narrative, but she can't be much higher than Tyrion, who has to climb onto his chair to reach the chalice. I have a hard time imagining her poisoning it unnoticed.

But Garlan is perfectly placed, and GRRM goes out of his way to give us tiny details about the cup's position, contents, and size at various times to make it pretty easy to figure out. I think.

[Lion of Judah]

I thought Margery's grandma did it with the jewel from Sansa's head garb.

[dtones520]

I thought Margery's grandma did it with the jewel from Sansa's head garb.

She probably removed the poison from the hairnet at that time. Who actually placed it in the Wine is unknown. But it was either Olenna or Garlan. They are the closest ones to the cup.

[Erudain]

Maybe not. I certainly hope there is a reveal coming up. The death itself was very unsatisfying, imo and not really knowing what happened makes it worse.

Well Joffrey's death was quite satisfying for me actually...After the RW I remember actually yelling and :rofl: while i was reading it, saying something like "ha you deserve it you little psycho brat"...

[BabyMeraxes]

Melisandre. What? Who said that?

[Scipio Africanus]

Ok check this:

LF had set Sansa up as his patsy for Joff's murder all along. He would sneak her out when he died. Combined with her other motives, this makes her look SUPER guilty.

But when it played out, Tyrion became the suspect. Bonus surprise for LF! Not only does he clear Tyrion out of the mix, he also ends up with a spare young highborn maiden who looks just like the woman he loved AND happens to be the likely heir to Winterfell.

@ OP

The Tyrells under the leadership of the Queen of Thorns.

@ quote above

No, Sansa was never meant to take the blame, she was a pawn at that point. LF, who conspired with the QoT, had his favourite patsy set up: Tyrion. LF knows Cercei. He probably knew Cercei would at once blame Tyrion. Besides Prince Oberyn Martyl the Red Viper was also a prime candidate for to be suspected by the Lannisters.

And all the while the Spider is tittering with delight in the corner at the chaos LF has wrought.

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

It's a smoke-screen. I don't believe they <the Tyrells> ever intended to have Sansa marry Willas. They wanted to use her to find out whether Joffrey was as bad as they assumed (he was worse), then use her as a pawn in the murder game (delivering the weapon and taking the fall).

I have a feeling it was Littlefinger who told the awful Joff stories to the Tyrells. Didn't consider that the Tyrells were setting up Sansa to take the fall for the murder. That's ice cold, if true, especially after teasing her with talk of a visit to Highgarden and possible marriage to Willas. Any more evidence that this is true?

[Incest_La_Vie]

I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs...

Certainly this seems indicative of Sansa's hairnet, however why would Olenna or some other Tyrell need to retrieve one of the strangler crystals by fixing Sansa's hair? Why not just bring them to the wedding, as they were tiny and easily concealed? Also, the Ghost of High Heart also says that she sees the same maid "slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.". Sansa's snow castle scene at the Eyrie might fit but it seems kind of minor to figure into such a prophecy. Of course this could indicate something she'll do later on, but I'm still searching for another maid.

[Cat of the Canal Girl]

@ quote above

No, Sansa was never meant to take the blame, she was a pawn at that point. LF, who conspired with the QoT, had his favourite patsy set up: Tyrion. LF knows Cercei. He probably knew Cercei would at once blame Tyrion. Besides Prince Oberyn Martyl the Red Viper was also a prime candidate for to be suspected by the Lannisters.

So you think LF knew that Tyrion would pour the last cup of wine Joff drank?

While that is certainly possible, what we know for sure is that LF knew when Sansa would leave the Red Keep. And we are sure that LF knew she was married to Tyrion.

Any way around it, LF knew that Sansa would look suspicious.

[oakenhelm]

EDIT: nm

And suspicion of Sansa seems to be the case regardless. Cersei would blame her simply because she wants to. There is hardly any "evidence" against Tyrion either, other than that he served wine.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Certainly this seems indicative of Sansa's hairnet, however why would Olenna or some other Tyrell need to retrieve one of the strangler crystals by fixing Sansa's hair? Why not just bring them to the wedding, as they were tiny and easily concealed? Also, the Ghost of High Heart also says that she sees the same maid "slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.". Sansa's snow castle scene at the Eyrie might fit but it seems kind of minor to figure into such a prophecy. Of course this could indicate something she'll do later on, but I'm still searching for another maid.

So that they had evidence Sansa killed Joffrey, of course. They framed Tyrion and Sansa for it, immediately after he choked to death. If the Tyrells show that Sansa's hairnet misses a amethyst which looks like the Strangler.. Well, there you have it. The maid has to be Sansa.

[plurabel]

I came across the theory a while ago:

http://asoiaf.wester...poisoned-tywin/

It is really interesting to read. While Tyrion murdered him, Oberyn could well have poisoned him before that with the intention to kill him. Plenty of motivations. I was sold immediately. Also explains the stink of Tywin's corpse.

thank you for linking to this! I'm sort of new to the board so hadn't seen it yet. amazing. :)

[ChromeWeasel]

So that they had evidence Sansa killed Joffrey, of course. They framed Tyrion and Sansa for it, immediately after he choked to death. If the Tyrells show that Sansa's hairnet misses a amethyst which looks like the Strangler.. Well, there you have it. The maid has to be Sansa.

I was just thinking the same thing: Why bother with the hair net in the first place. But it makes sense if the plan is to frame Sansa for the murder.

[oakenhelm]

I was just thinking the same thing: Why bother with the hair net in the first place. But it makes sense if the plan is to frame Sansa for the murder.

It is curious. I kinda thought it was a way to scare Sansa. Seems to me that Cersei didnt need a hairnet to accuse her

[Greywater Reed]

Certainly this seems indicative of Sansa's hairnet, however why would Olenna or some other Tyrell need to retrieve one of the strangler crystals by fixing Sansa's hair? Why not just bring them to the wedding, as they were tiny and easily concealed?

Why, for a very convenient smoking gun :)

If they had simply dropped the crystals in from a concealed spot, well, the murderer could be *anyone*. If the crystals are in a hairnet that 1000 people saw Sansa wearing, there's no need for anyone to look any further or ask any inconvenient questions. It was *obviously* Tyrion and Sansa (from Cersei and everyone except the Tyrell's perspective). It's pretty much a perfect framing.

As to why they tempted her with the offer of Willas and Highgarden? I think that was more to do with stopping her from running away more than anything. They know she's a flight risk, they know she's been talking to Dontos and he's been trying to arrange an escape. If they dangle the carrot of Willas and Highgarden, unexpected marriages to the Imp aside, she'll be in the court until Oleanna herself leaves (thinking that Oleanna will take her with her). Therefore she'll definitely be at the wedding, ready to take the fall.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

It is curious. I kinda thought it was a way to scare Sansa. Seems to me that Cersei didnt need a hairnet to accuse her

Well, her son just choked to death before her own eyes, she's mad and paranoid, she hates her brother Tyrion and she knows what Joffrey has done with Sansa.. Plenty of reasons to accuse Sansa of the murder. And she's the queen, she doesn't need evidence. The truth is what she or the King make of it. (:

[unRobert]

Garlan the Gallant.

[oakenhelm]

Well, her son just choked to death before her own eyes, she's mad and paranoid, she hates her brother Tyrion and she knows what Joffrey has done with Sansa.. Plenty of reasons to accuse Sansa of the murder. And she's the queen, she doesn't need evidence. The truth is what she or the King make of it. (:

I agree. I think I am just having trouble with the idea of using the 'stone' out of the hairnet. I just picture myself fumbling with it and making a scene lol

[three-eyed monkey]

Why, for a very convenient smoking gun :)

If they had simply dropped the crystals in from a concealed spot, well, the murderer could be *anyone*. If the crystals are in a hairnet that 1000 people saw Sansa wearing, there's no need for anyone to look any further or ask any inconvenient questions. It was *obviously* Tyrion and Sansa (from Cersei and everyone except the Tyrell's perspective). It's pretty much a perfect framing.

As to why they tempted her with the offer of Willas and Highgarden? I think that was more to do with stopping her from running away more than anything. They know she's a flight risk, they know she's been talking to Dontos and he's been trying to arrange an escape. If they dangle the carrot of Willas and Highgarden, unexpected marriages to the Imp aside, she'll be in the court until Oleanna herself leaves (thinking that Oleanna will take her with her). Therefore she'll definitely be at the wedding, ready to take the fall.

But was the hairnet a smoking gun? I only ask this as Sansa left with the hairnet and as far as I remember it was never entered as evidence against Tyrion in the trial. So who knew that the posion was in the hairnet but the conspirators, LF and Tyrells.

Another thing is that while the marraige to the Imp was unexpected to the Tyrells and Sansa, LF may well have had knowledge of it. He discussed the plans for marrying Joff to Margery with Tywin. Part of those discussions might have been what was to be done with Sansa. LF might well have known that Tyrion and Sansa would be married by then and if he had Sansa flee KL with Dontos then fingers might be pointed at her husband Tyrion. LF hired the jousting dwarves and coached Joff on how to use them to provoke Tyrion, so he wanted friction between these two at the wedding. Basically he's setting Tyrion up imo. Sure Sansa would become a suspect too, but he'd have her safe in the Vale under a different name and by the time he needs to reveal her as Sansa again, the Lannisters would no longer be in power as long as his plan goes accordingly.

So why would the Tyrells use Sansa's hairnet to bring in the poison? My guess is because the Tyrells were just pawns in LF's game. He set the whole thing up, provided the poison via Dontos and Sansa, put it on a plate for them, all Garlan had to do was put it in Joff's cup at the time was right and Margery would marry Tommen.

[Incest_La_Vie]

Why, for a very convenient smoking gun :)

Ok, but if Littlefinger masterminded all of this, as he tells Sansa and as most readers seem to believe, why would he arrange to have Dontos spirit Sansa away immediately? As far as I know we have no knowledge that the hairnet was left behind. A smoking gun is pretty useless if no one sees the smoke.