Who killed Joffrey?

[Incest_La_Vie]

Also, even if she was in on the whole thing, it seems there would be a constant risk of Margaery drinking from the chalice as well. She couldn't really refuse if Joffrey asked or else if he then died she would be a prime suspect. It seems unlikely that Olenna or Garlan could be certain that only Joffrey would drink from the wedding chalice at any specific time and it's even more unlikely that they would risk Margaery as a casualty.

[three-eyed monkey]

Also, even if she was in on the whole thing, it seems there would be a constant risk of Margaery drinking from the chalice as well. She couldn't really refuse if Joffrey asked or else if he then died she would be a prime suspect. It seems unlikely that Olenna or Garlan could be certain that only Joffrey would drink from the wedding chalice at any specific time and it's even more unlikely that they would risk Margaery as a casualty.

The chalice wasn't poisoned from the outset. The poison was added while everyone watched the king and queen slice the pie. If Margaery gets a signal from Garlan that the deed is done then she need only avoid the chalice until Joff drinks and dies. Her knowledge of the fact it is poisoned would ultimately keep her safe. Worse case scenario Joff insists that she drinks, in which case she refuses, says she's unwell, spills it by accident, faints, etc.

[Incest_La_Vie]

The chalice wasn't poisoned from the outset. The poison was added while everyone watched the king and queen slice the pie. If Margaery gets a signal from Garlan that the deed is done then she need only avoid the chalice until Joff drinks and dies. Her knowledge of the fact it is poisoned would ultimately keep her safe. Worse case scenario Joff insists that she drinks, in which case she refuses, says she's unwell, spills it by accident, faints, etc.

Certainly all of this is possible, I just think that such a scheme seems fraught with danger for the Tyrells. If Joff asks her to drink and she refuses in any way, she casts suspicion on herself. Spilling it by accident would work I suppose, but then of course Joff would still be alive...

[Buried Treasure]

Call me a romantic fool, but I kind of hope that Garlan the Gallant really is a true knight and wasn't involved in the poisoning of anyone, even someone I hate like Joffrey.

But where is the motive? Why would the Tyrells want to kill Tyrion? They have much more reason to want to remove the monster Joffrey to keep Margaery safe.

Agreed, and not just Margaery herself but her maidenhead too. Joff was old enough to consumate a marriage which would have bound her (and the rest of the Tyrell's because they are loyal to their own) irrevocably to the Lannister side. With Tommen too young to consumate a marriage the Tyrells had guaranteed position if the Lannister won the war but it the war turned against them the smarter Tyrells would be free to 'discover' the truth of the incest, get an annullment and switch sides.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Call me a romantic fool, but I kind of hope that Garlan the Gallant really is a true knight and wasn't involved in the poisoning of anyone, even someone I hate like Joffrey.

The fair maiden is forced to marry the evil ogre against her will, but then the hero kills the ogre and sets her free. What could be more gallant and knightly than that? :)

[BannermanOfDorne]

The fair maiden is forced to marry the evil ogre against her will, but then the hero kills the ogre and sets her free. What could be more gallant and knightly than that? :)

It all depends on how you view it.

If he was involved in it, it wasn't very honorable though.

[three-eyed monkey]

Call me a romantic fool, but I kind of hope that Garlan the Gallant really is a true knight and wasn't involved in the poisoning of anyone, even someone I hate like Joffrey.

Wearing a dead man's armour to freak out the enemy and get Renly's former bannermen back from Stannis isn't the action of a true knight either if you ask me, that depends on the definition of a true knight and words like honour I suppose. So how truely gallant is our Garlan, I wonder.

[The Bastard of Summer]

Huh. I'd never really considered that.

Oberyn tries to kill Tywin by giving him a big dose of Ex-lax. :stillsick:

More like Imodium ad......which would stop him up

[Buried Treasure]

The fair maiden is forced to marry the evil ogre against her will, but then the hero kills the ogre and sets her free. What could be more gallant and knightly than that? :)

Even when her other knightly brother is the one that asked the evil ogre to marry her as a boon to satisfy her tender heart in the fist place?

Wearing a dead man's armour to freak out the enemy and get Renly's former bannermen back from Stannis isn't the action of a true knight either if you ask me, that depends on the definition of a true knight and words like honour I suppose. So how truely gallant is our Garlan, I wonder.

Battlefield deceptions aren't really considered as dishonourable as poisoning, I'd think. Sure, tricks like posing as another man in his armour or launching ambuses etc. aren't chivalrous but warfare has it's own particular codes of honour and exceptions. The trick of wearing Renly's armour might be roughly comparable to, say, ordering hidden archers to fire on an enemy commander - it's not going to earn any glory but it's not going to get your name cursed by stangers either. A poisoning might be more equatable to the same archers firing on the same commander whilst he is carrying a white flag of truce.

That said, Garlan could be dishonourable. Tyrells mostly seem to be unthinking idiots or pragmatic schemers and Garlan doesn't seem to be an idiot. I just have a hope.

[John W]

Here's a crackpot theory: what if Tywin was involved?

Remember after Blackwater during a council meeting Joffrey insults Tywin and leaves the room and Tywin says, "that boy is in need of a sharp lesson," which makes Tyrion shiver at the thought.

Could Tywin have, knowing Joffrey was born of incest, and was a maniac like Aerys, wanted him out of the way? The fact that Tyrion was implicated was just the cherry on top.

It seems to me that Tywin viewed himself as the true King, just as Cersei saw herself as the true Queen when she was the regent.

[Will&Chrismom]

My take: Margaery is innocent, as are Sansa and Tyrion. This is all LF and the other Tyrells. LF most likely had a conversation with the QoT and they got Garlan to do the actual deed. I also think it was the pie, not the wine, that was poisoned.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

i'm pretty confident that it was concocted by the queen of thorns and littlefinger when he was in highgarden. too much points to it. he wanted joffrey out, she wanted him dead, so they worked together

[Pope Killdragon]

The facts that Littlefinger aided Sansa in her escape and that he was the one who brought the Tyrells back into the King's peace, and the fact that he's fucking Littlefinger, are enough to convince me he and the Tyrells hammered it out together.

[dragontamer]

I noticed something strange about the chalice. If you re-read the chapters, SOS, Sansa 59 and Tyrion 69, you will see that up untill the point that Joffrey spills the wine over Tyrion's head it's stated not once or twice but several times that Joffrey has to hold the chalice two-handed because it's too big and heavy. After the spill though it's stated again few times that he can hold it one-handed. I think it's a replica and who better to produce a replica but the original person who gave Joffrey the chalice, thus the Tyrells.

[Scipio Africanus]

I was just thinking the same thing: Why bother with the hair net in the first place. But it makes sense if the plan is to frame Sansa for the murder.

Or it could be Sansa was the "drugmule". No one would bother searching Sansa or find her suspecious, no one at that point thought her dangerous. And the beauty is Sansa doesn't even need to be filled in about anything.

Everyone assumes LF is framing Sansa because he spirited her away at the very moment of the purple wedding, but I believe LF wanted to spirit her away sooner but did not have the opportunity to do so, nor did he have anywhere good for her to go. It was late in the series that Lysa and the Vale landed on his lap.

[Gerold_Hightower]

There are some interesting plots here. I will try a mix of all of them.

What if everyone tried to kill Joff? Red Viper, Tyrells, LF, even Tywin had the motive to kill him.

As far as I understood. Joff drinks (or touches) several cups that night. One was poisoned from one party, another cup from another party and so on.

LF suggests it was him or the Tyrells, Oberyn points at himself, Tywin could kill him only because he knew about the incest (though not likely).

My point is someone poisoned him, noone is exactly sure who did it, but everybody is happy he is out of the way.

[three-eyed monkey]

I don't buy the poison being in the pie. Lots of people got a slice of pie so if the poison was put in when the pie was baked then you need conspirators in the kitchen and you risk killing anyone that eats the pie. But we know the poison was the strangler and that it came in Sansa's hairnet. The slice Joff ate was Tyrions. So was the poison really for Tyrion and put in somewhere between the pie being sliced and served? Maybe, but I doubt it. LF and QoT were the plotters. Garlan and probably Margaery had knwledge. Joff was the target and Tyrion was set up to be the fall guy imo. The poison was in the wine, where it would probably dissolve from the crystaline black stone form it was in while in the hairnet. It was placed there by Garlan while people watched the king and queen slice the pie.

[Hear Us Roar]

LF and Olenna Tyrell

[Sneak]

I don't buy the poison being in the pie. Lots of people got a slice of pie so if the poison was put in when the pie was baked then you need conspirators in the kitchen and you risk killing anyone that eats the pie. But we know the poison was the strangler and that it came in Sansa's hairnet. The slice Joff ate was Tyrions. So was the poison really for Tyrion and put in somewhere between the pie being sliced and served? Maybe, but I doubt it. LF and QoT were the plotters. Garlan and probably Margaery had knwledge. Joff was the target and Tyrion was set up to be the fall guy imo. The poison was in the wine, where it would probably dissolve from the crystaline black stone form it was in while in the hairnet. It was placed there by Garlan while people watched the king and queen slice the pie.

The bolded part. This always seemed pretty straight forward to me. LF was practically boasting about it to Sansa, and I know he does lie, but I think he was telling the truth here. Everything fits with how he described it. The QoT's conversation with Sansa was to confirm Joffery's personality and make sure LF was being truthful. Then the plan to murder him is put in motion. The jousting dwarfs were there to make Tyrion lose his temper with Joffery and, considering he didn't have the best of relationships with his nephew anyway, implicate him in Joffery's murder. I agree with another poster that it was always LF's plan to wisk Sansa away, and I think the confusion at the wedding was the perfect time to do so. He probably anticipated her being a suspect as well and decided to keep her hiden at the Vale until the Lannisters fell from power, which, thanks to Cersei, is happening quite rapidly. Although I don't know how she's going to be cleared of regicide.

[Ygrain]

Most probably, Garlan - but let us not forget the lovely Lady Leonette, just one seat further, who could easily press to her husband and reach a hand while no-one was looking. The Tyrell ladies seem to be able to do a lot of scheming on their own: QoT, Margaery, Lady Merryweather... If they are all schoooled by QoT, they probably don't think their males capable of carrying out the deed. Also, Margaery must be on it, the risk that she might get poisoned would be too high.

The effect of the poison matches that of the strangler, and strangler is served dilluted in wine - red wine, because of the colour. The pie that Tyrion gets is a piece of a much bigger pie, served to everyone, poured over with lemon cream, again from a bigger bowl - neither is suitable for concealing a dark violet substance, and as the medieval feasts went, preparing the individual portions is done right there, on the table, so I really don't see a chance to poison Tyrion's.

As for the whole hairnet plot - I believe that LF intentionally made Sansa complicit, to increase his power over her. If he ever revealed that the poison was in her hairnet, no-one would believe that she didn't know.