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My Disappointments with aSoS *Mega-Spoilers*


Marc Hill

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Overall I thought it was the best book of the series I've read so far. (I have not started Feast or Dance)

Nevertheless I was disappointed by some of the paths Martin took with the plot:

1) Jon Snow - The assumed bastard son of the traitor Ned Stark being selected to be Lord Commander of the Night's Watch didn't make any sense to me at all. He lacks experience from head-to-toe, and the hatred between Cotter Pyke and Ser Denys was almost like R'hollor vs. the Other. I mean I would have preferred the realistic outcome of Janos Slynt being Lord Commander. Plus, the fact that he was offered Winterfell and refused is ridiculous to me as well; there was nothing dishonorable about accepting that. It would've made for many interesting possiblities (now that Tywin is gone) as well as give him a chance to avenge his 'family'.

2) Leaving Sandor Clegane out in the wilds to presumably die? I mean I guess it's fitting for a real hound or the Mountain, but not imo for The Hound. His death was too quick and easy for me, but then again I'm just being a prisoner of the moment perhaps.

3) Reviving Catelyn Stark was too much for me ( This could also stem from the fact that I don't like her character, and specifically the way she thinks of herself). When characters die I prefer them to stay dead. Lord Beric was an exception and I accepted that, but once you start reviving more than one dead character I fear it's a slippery slope. Hopefully, Catelyn doesn't play that much of a role in the future and Martin avoids necromancy.

4) Samwell Tarly - We were beaten over the head of how much of a craven he is and I'm not sure I can blame his father. I really wanted him to be a bit more dynamic and evolving especially through all he's been. Plus shouldn't he have lost weight over the course of events? Seems like he hasn't lost a stone though.

5) Prince Oberyn Martell - I knew Martin would kill him off right when he decided to be Tyrion's champion. I felt that was too obvious and a bit cliche. The Red Viper foolishly trying to finish the Mountain after he'd already got him with the spear didn't make sense for a fighter such as himself. I'm guessing vengeance clouded his judgement; even Tyrion didn't know what caused him to make such a blunder. Oberyn for me was an intruiging character and so I sorely missed his presence. The one positive that may come out from this is more Dornish involvement in the series.

~End~

My top three favorite POV's from this book were: Sansa, Jaime, and Tyrion.

Basically, I'm wondering whether anyone else shares my views on some of the issues I mentioned above.

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I just finished ASOS and started AFFC so I'm not far ahead of you. This is all still swimming in my head too.

1. I really WANT Jon to take Winterfell, but it seems like it's too soon. I'd rather he get something good at the END of the series and be able to hold onto it. Seems to me if he got it now he's just end up dead in a book or two. And look how his humility was rewarded almost immediately; within pages he's voted in as the new commander at the wall!

2. Ehh, it says more about Arya than anything else. She's the one going through all the changes and I'm not quite sure he's dead yet.

3. I'm still baffled by this. Where is GRRM going with this? Will she no longer have a POV in the books and just be seen through other people's eyes? It could be great but I'm not sold on this yet.

4. I'm assuming he'll get there. Rome wasn't built in a day. And I love Samwell just the way he is for now.

5. Oberyn seems like a waste of a great character to me. The most interesting thing to come out of Dorne so far.

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I will sorely miss Oberyn Martell. I wish we had met him earlier or he lived longer.

As for the rest of your points, I agree with some points and disaprove of others, namely your thoughts on Jon and Sam. I felt like there is no way or reason Jon should take winterfell. (Not to mention Jon Stark doesn't sound that great!) Also with Sam, I feel like it would take awhile to truly get over cowardice, especially when one has been attacked by a never ending army of undead-demon-zombies-who-can-only-be-killed-by-fire. Especially after many of his friends and brothers were killed in a scary as all hell ambush.

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1) Leaving his Night's Watch vows is dishonorable in his opinion. Even with a king's blessings, as "the night's watch takes no part" and is separate from kings and politics. Although taking Winterfell would have been an interesting plot.

2) Yeah I miss the hound but ya can always hope he gets brought back too haha.

3) Yeah, it was a pretty big surprise but it's a fantasy series so I just accepted there was magic and moved on. I was personally more disappointed with the shadow assassin in aCoK than resurrection. At least resurrection changes the person and is interesting.

4) There was a thread in asoiaf general the other day about Sam losing weight hehe.

5) But the fight scene was so cool!

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I agree with you on all your points except for the first one.. there's no way Jon could have taken Stannis up on his offer. He is Ned's son, and he values honor and duty above all. What really sealed the deal was the fact that they would have made him cut the weirwood tree down and convert to R'hllor, and that would have been too great a sacrifice just for Jon to become Lord of Winterfell. Sounds dumb I guess but the old gods are too important to the Stark name, and Winterfell would never be the same without it's godswood.

As to him being voted Lord Commander, I really don't see the problem with it. You'd rather have Janos Slynt? :ack: It was realistic that he had more support at the beginning, but Samwell was able to make some very convincing points to both Denys and Cotter as to why Jon was a suitable choice. Not to mention the fact that he had just successfully defended the Wall from the entirety of Mance Rayder's army. Once Slynt got there and started screwing things up with a false parley, you can see how their leadership skills differ. And it's not like Jon is just some random rapist who found his way to the Wall, he is the Bastard of Winterfell, Eddard Stark's son, trained from birth in the ways of command and decency. Plus, Mormont's raven flew to his shoulder, and that bird knows a Lord Commander when he sees one. I will admit that Sam's vote rigging did come off as a bit unrealistic because it seemed that everyone would have caught on to what he was doing, but I was much happier with the outcome than any other. You have to remember, the Wall has very few good men left, and men like Slynt had their chance to win, Jon won the first time his name was put to vote. Just my .02. Agreed on everything else though.

BTW you mentioned some of your favorite POVs were Jaime's.. how awesome are they. When you start the book and his is the first chapter you think "you asshole," and then by the third chapter you're like "When's the next Jaime chapter coming dammit!" He is just so entertaining to read about, I think A Storm of Swords is the best book in the series largely based on his addition into the POV spectrum.

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Hmm, I have to say it's finally sinking in for me why Jon chose to become Lord Snow of the Night's Watch.

He is Ned's son, and he values honor and duty above all. What really sealed the deal was the fact that they would have made him cut the weirwood tree down and convert to R'hllor, and that would have been too great a sacrifice just for Jon to become Lord of Winterfell. Sounds dumb I guess but the old gods are too important to the Stark name, and Winterfell would never be the same without it's godswood.
~The Lord's Kiss

I thought that once he was with Ygritte half-a-hundred times Jon's sense of honor would've changed. But it seems that he really does respect the old gods and honors that. Even one-step removed from Ned Stark's honor of steel, Jon comes to inherit quite a portion of that.

Also, I can see that if Jon did get Winterfell with Martin's current 'chances of living through to the end' he would probably bite the short end of the stick.

Seems to me if he got it now he's just end up dead in a book or two.
~Big Daddy Dave

The Lord's Kiss, I felt exactly the same about Jaime's POV sections. I'm hoping that something like that or better comes into FFC/DWD.

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3. I'm still baffled by this. Where is GRRM going with this? Will she no longer have a POV in the books and just be seen through other people's eyes? It could be great but I'm not sold on this yet.

5. Oberyn seems like a waste of a great character to me. The most interesting thing to come out of Dorne so far.

3) Yeah, I'm hoping Catelyn's status will be cleared up soon. Are you starting Feast yet?

5) It was definitely a waste especially since all we've got on Dorne are stories/passing mentions like those about the Summer Isles.

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Im just about to start Feast.

I like Jon's story. Regardless of what "official honor" might dictate, he also did "the right thing." He stayed where he was needed most, and he didn't become a tool in Stannis' game. He became a player not a piece as LF would say. If he took Stannis' deal, then he'd owe Stannis everything.

As to Catelyn. Yeah. wow. I don't know. That was a bit much. We'll see where it goes, but Im not really into that.

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258 pages into Feast now! Though I have a wedding this weekend to go to (not a Red one though!) which will slow down my reading.

I'm about to buy Feast and Dance soon so I'll try and catch up.

You forgot about Purple though, neither Red nor Purple haha!

Im just about to start Feast.

I like Jon's story. Regardless of what "official honor" might dictate, he also did "the right thing." He stayed where he was needed most, and he didn't become a tool in Stannis' game. He became a player not a piece as LF would say. If he took Stannis' deal, then he'd owe Stannis everything.

As to Catelyn. Yeah. wow. I don't know. That was a bit much. We'll see where it goes, but Im not really into that.

Ahh yes we wouldn't want another Davos, and LF's wisdom definitely applies here.

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Jon being selected as Lord Commader of the NW was a bit of a stretch for me as well.

I think Arya didn't want to kill the Hound after all. Otherwise I tnink he's supposed to be a mystery - the killer who may or may not be dead.

Catelyn being a ghost is weird, but she was truly haunted and in great dismay when she died.

Sam is just Sam. He's that guy we've all seen (or know). Leave him alone!

I have no clue what Oberyn did or who he was.... I have a glimmer of memory of him fighting the hound..... is he in the Tyrion chapters because I might go back and re-read if he was so special.

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The thing with Lord Snow, his notion of honour and his guilt for what happened to Ygritte, and (maybe) Halfhand is probably going to make it morally impossible for him to EVER leave the Nights Watch alive. I suspect even if the ghost of Ned Stark came to Jon and told him to take arms against KL, even if Arya turned up at Castle Black and begged Snow to avenge her/their family he would not go. Winter Is Coming and Jon Snow is one of the few people alive that fully appreciates what this means.

Would someone else be more suited to the Lord Commander role? Maybe, but I think the brothers choice was better than anything Stannis would have 'forced' on them.

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BTW you mentioned some of your favorite POVs were Jaime's.. how awesome are they. When you start the book and his is the first chapter you think "you asshole," and then by the third chapter you're like "When's the next Jaime chapter coming dammit!" He is just so entertaining to read about, I think A Storm of Swords is the best book in the series largely based on his addition into the POV spectrum.

I agree with you totally on this I think Jaimes point of view is a brilliant read. I really enjoyed the developing love hate relationship between him and Brienne, at times it was laugh out loud 'thappthireth!' haha need I say more… I hope they meet up again later on.

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Yeah, I agree on Jaime. I want to hate him desperately for all the disgusting things he has done, most of all what he did to Bran. But his chapters are so good! Not only are we seeing a different side of a man who is now realizing what little good he has done with his life thusfar, HIS flashbacks are always chock full of pertinent information! Being in the KG back in the day meant he was present for a lot of key moments and events. Even if he stays a villain his POV chapters are worth the read.

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I'm loving Jaime's POVs, but I just read how he told someone that he would have cut off Arya's hand for Cersei if he had found her before Ned's men - back during the Namyria attack.... and I was taken aback. But that tells us so much about him.... he would have done anything for the person he loved.

So interesting.

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I got the impression that Caitlyn was just a corpse that the robbers had preserved somehow, and carried around with them as some sort of trophy...?

If you haven't read AFFC, which I have just finished, then I won't tell you anymore than to reread the epilogue at the end of ASOS.

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  • 1 month later...

I like Jon Snow, but sometimes his POV's are a bit boring. It doesn't feel right for me if he takes Winterfell.

Arya had a lot of hate for The Hound, and I understand why she let him die.

For Catelyns ressurection, I was STUNNED. Starting aFfC in a minute!

Sam, well.. he really bores me.

It was kind of weird the Red Viper would fight for Tyrion, but he only wanted revenge for Elia. So I guess the Mountain is now dying.

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  • 2 weeks later...

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