Brandon Stark, the douchebag?

[Naathi Prince]

People love saying "the mad King had the right to kill Brandon" which might be true, but they also love to neglect the fact that Aerys killed Brandon without a trial.

As for whether Brandon was an ass, Brandon Stark was a badass, he was the heir to Winterfell, women loved him and men wanted to be him. Guys like that are usually a little assholish.

[Tenshi]

A servant sees. A woman talks. A man brags. A supposed maiden fails at lying. A god is angry.

All reasons. Pregnancy of course is a done deal, hard to hide that, even if you use moon tea. In this case, if it happened at the harrenhal tournament, I'd bet they weren't quite certain of their privacy. And while she could lie about it... the rumours would certainly haunt her afterwards.

Much more so if the man in question promised to marry her or whatsoever, and she only found out otherwise after she'd told her handmaidens.

[Saint Arya]

I don't think he's a douche, just a playboy. So he took the girl's maidenhead, not by force, she gave it to him. Big deal. She probably lied about it anyways, and said she lost it on horseback (common for highborn girls).

Next, I doubt he slept with Ashara. He spoke to her on Ned's behalf and I doubt he'd do that to Ned, everything speaks to his devotion to his family.

He didnt marry the girl he wanted to because his father set him a different match.

He went looking for his sister immediately and was so upset he committed treason, threatening to kill Rheagar.

And the big one, he died trying to save his father with his own life.

So he likes the ladies but overall was a decent dude.

[Sevumar]

I'd say he sounds like Robert, but slightly better. Ned Stark said Lyanna had "a little of the wolf's blood" in her and Brandon had "more than a little," if I remember correctly. I tend to think of him as a wild, immensely charismatic extrovert.

I don't think he can really be compared to Robert, except that they might have both been charismatic and skilled warriors. We seem to have pretty good evidence that he had a completely consentual relationship with Barbrey Ryswell and that both were unhappy that he was to marry Catelyn Tully. There is speculation, though without much evidence, that he may have had one other consentual sexual relationship (with Ashara). There's no indication that he was either promiscuous or a user of women the way Robert was.

Selmy said Brandon had "dishonored" Ashara by sleeping with her and impregnating her, but it sounds like she cared for him enough to grieve for him. Selmy implies that too.

I think Selmy is biased against Ashara because of his very strict view of sexuality. In all likelihood, Ashara did not see herself as "dishonored" by whatever relationship she might have had at Harrenhal. She was old enough to choose her partners for herself and she was a Dornish woman besides.

The thing that doesn't make Brandon sound good is the whole "he liked the look of blood on his sword" thing. Both meanings are a bit...icky. But still...so what? Ned said Brandon was even wilder than Lyanna, but it sounds to me like he (judging by his actions) was still a better person overall than say, Robert or Oberyn Martell.

We have no way of knowing if he actually said that. Even if what we've heard about him having a wild streak is true, it doesn't seem consistent with what we know of his other behavior. I don't think we're getting an accurate report here. By the time she's telling the story, Barbrey Dustin is old, jaded, and laden with regrets.

[Sevumar]

I don't think he's a douche, just a playboy. So he took the girl's maidenhead, not by force, she gave it to him. Big deal. She probably lied about it anyways, and said she lost it on horseback (common for highborn girls).

We only have evidence that he had a sexual relationship with one woman. There is speculation about a second, but that is far from confirmed. That doesn't even come close to making Brandon a "playboy."

He went looking for his sister immediately and was so upset he committed treason, threatening to kill Rheagar.

And the big one, he died trying to save his father with his own life.

So he likes the ladies but overall was a decent dude.

Again, there's evidence that he liked one woman, and nothing beyond that. How does that made him guilty of "liking the ladies" in a way that suggests promiscuity or irresponsibility?

[Saint Arya]

I remember there being suggestions of him having possible bastards around. I'll have to look it up to see.

[Sevumar]

I remember there being suggestions of him having possible bastards around. I'll have to look it up to see.

In a recent interview, Martin said that it was possible Brandon had bastards somewhere in the kingdoms. That's a long way from confirmation.

[Pearlthegirl]

Probably so. As Devil's advocate, lets say they do fall in love, he does sleep with her(as Rob impulsively did), and do intend to get married. His brother and father then get killed, and he's suddenly Lord of Winterfell and needs to marry Catelyn to gain Riveruns support or risk the ruin of his house, and Robert's, and Jon Arryn's etc.

This is exactly what I think. The Ned was smitten with Ashara but had to do his duty(Cat). Whatever happened between them, if anything, was probably consensual. Brandon may be a little hot headed & had a fling with Lady Dustin but was probably an alright Stark kinda guy.

[Barty]

I think it was Ned and Ashara and Brandon only helped Ned and her get together and he would not sleep with the girl his brother clearly liked. And going to KL is not idiotic especially considering the more time you waste the more time your sister is getting raped by a madman. I like Brandon - he seems to be the badass in the Stark family and the Starks clearly need a badass - they have too many honorable, serious men as it is.

[lilenadheas]

Probably so. As Devil's advocate, lets say they do fall in love, he does sleep with her(as Rob impulsively did), and do intend to get married. His brother and father then get killed, and he's suddenly Lord of Winterfell and needs to marry Catelyn to gain Riveruns support or risk the ruin of his house, and Robert's, and Jon Arryn's etc.

The only reason I would object to that, aside from Ned's nature, is that the Tourney at Harrenhal takes place months before the rebellion. If Ned didn't sleep with her then, he never slept with her IMO. It would have been a "heat of the moment" type thing, as opposed to clandestine meetings. if he had months to marry her, why didn't he?

[corbon]

I think it was Ned and Ashara and Brandon only helped Ned and her get together and he would not sleep with the girl his brother clearly liked. And going to KL is not idiotic especially considering the more time you waste the more time your sister is getting raped by a madman. I like Brandon - he seems to be the badass in the Stark family and the Starks clearly need a badass - they have too many honorable, serious men as it is.

Except the whole 'his brother clearly liked' is basically invented out of virtualy nothing. Ned was shy. Brandon asked Ashara to dance with him. That is the entire basis for the 'Ned loved Ashara and Brandon must be a douche if he went after her anyway' theory.

Most people, including myself until ADwD, have been sucked in by the later rumours that Ned and Ashara were in love. But these rumours all post-date Ned leaving Starfall with Jon (presumed by most to be Ashara's baby), while Ashara commits suicide. And that collective event is a clear starter point for them. And we know that is almost certainly not true (ie R+L=J and Ashara is unrelated to Jon at all), which means the basis of those rumours is a falshood, which means the rumours are unlikely to actually be true.

Ned and Ashara weren't in love (probably).

There is virtually no reliable evidence they were, despite us spending extended periods of time in Neds head, and during times when Ashara really ought to have come up too.

Cersei/Winterfell/Catelyn sources - clearly post Jon, and based on that.

Ned Dayne - would seem more reliable untli you realise that he's still just a kid, wasn't born at the time, must therefore be repeating on what others have said, which means either gossip or House Dayne stories. And we already know what the gossip is based on. And which story is better for House Dayne to 'remember' - a romantically tragic suicide, or a disgraced and rejected woman suiciding in grief?

Even Harwin isn't exactly reliable. His father is master of horse at Winterfell, which means Harwin is probably 30 or less, and therefore unlikely to have been at Harrenhal nearly 20 years ago. So when he tells Arya that Ned may have loved Ashara at Winterfell he too is most likely repeating gossip - which could as easily be confused for Brandon being with Ashara.

So summary. Ned being shy and Brandon asking Ashara to dance with him is not exactly evidence that Ned loved Ashara. And thats all we have from the Reed's story.

The rest is extremely unrelaible gossip from people who weren't there, and with logical, but mistaken, other sources than Harrenhal to boot.

[Danelle]

Am I the only one to think that Brandon's reaction to Lyanna's kidnapping was similar to Jaime's reaction when he was told of Tyrion being kidnapped by Lady Catelyn? Bit of hypocritical on Ned's behalf. Brandon was ready to kill Rhaegar because he fled with Lyanna. Jaime was ready to kill Ned because Cat had thought it sensible to kidnap a dwarf and drag him in Eyrie. In any case, Eddard was nothing like his siblings. Sometimes I wonder what if Robert had married Lyanna and started abusing her. What would Brandon's reaction be?

[David Selig]

Am I the only one to think that Brandon's reaction to Lyanna's kidnapping was similar to Jaime's reaction when he was told of Tyrion being kidnapped by Lady Catelyn? Bit of hypocritical on Ned's behalf. Brandon was ready to kill Rhaegar because he fled with Lyanna. Jaime was ready to kill Ned because Cat had thought it sensible to kidnap a dwarf and drag him in Eyrie.

How is this hypocritical? Ned wasn't Brandon after all and didn't react like a hothead In Lyanna's case, and IIRC he never said or thought Brandon's reaction was the right one.

[Helghan]

People love saying "the mad King had the right to kill Brandon" which might be true, but they also love to neglect the fact that Aerys killed Brandon without a trial.

Actually thats not true, Brandon had a trial, Rickard was summoned to answer for Brandons crimes, then either Rickard or Aerys called for trial by combat and Aerys picked wildfire as his champion. It was not a fair trial sure but he did have one.

And Aery did have the right to kill Brandon, in medival society you cannot threaten members of the royal family, escpecaily in the way Brandon has done. I mean its quite the ride from Riverrun to KL if all you can come up with in that time is "Rhaeger come out and die" you deserve to die for being stupid.

[sertain]

mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well

If she was grieving for the man who had dishonoured her wouldn't that mean he's dead? So if it was a Stark like Selmy says, it would have to be Brandon, since Ned was alive at the time.

[the Scorpion Knight]

If she was grieving for the man who had dishonoured her wouldn't that mean he's dead? So if it was a Stark like Selmy says, it would have to be Brandon, since Ned was alive at the time.

or the fact that he couldn't marry him

[LordBloodraven]

Actually thats not true, Brandon had a trial, Rickard was summoned to answer for Brandons crimes, then either Rickard or Aerys called for trial by combat and Aerys picked wildfire as his champion. It was not a fair trial sure but he did have one.

And Aery did have the right to kill Brandon, in medival society you cannot threaten members of the royal family, escpecaily in the way Brandon has done. I mean its quite the ride from Riverrun to KL if all you can come up with in that time is "Rhaeger come out and die" you deserve to die for being stupid.

You call this a trial? Burning a man and expecting him to live. The "come out and die" quote is tricky because we don't know the context where it was said or if he used those words. What about running around with noble maidens? Is it right by medieval standards

[StannisBamfatheon]

Actually thats not true, Brandon had a trial, Rickard was summoned to answer for Brandons crimes, then either Rickard or Aerys called for trial by combat and Aerys picked wildfire as his champion. It was not a fair trial sure but he did have one.

And Aery did have the right to kill Brandon, in medival society you cannot threaten members of the royal family, escpecaily in the way Brandon has done. I mean its quite the ride from Riverrun to KL if all you can come up with in that time is "Rhaeger come out and die" you deserve to die for being stupid.

That was as much a trial as Ned got. Aerys had no right to flatout murder brandon and ESPECIALLY rickard who did absolutely nothing and was tied up in a suit of armor and roasted alive. That's no duel, it's murder.

And yes ofcourse, fire the champion, fire! Yes Ser Fire! the great knight of westeros! Gimme a break.

[Gandalf the Grey]

I think we don't know that much about him, he's only mentioned in passing so it's quite hard to judge. He might not have been a nice character, but I think most of his actions were because he was afraid his sister was about to get raped. It doesn't necessarily excuse him, but there's so much hate for him where really I think people are presuming too much.

[Toos]

I mean its quite the ride from Riverrun to KL if all you can come up with in that time is "Rhaeger come out and die" you deserve to die for being stupid.

But we don't know what else Brandon said. He could say "Rhaegar come out and die. You kidnapped my sister."