Jump to content

Brandon Stark, the douchebag?


LordBloodraven

Recommended Posts

I may need clarification on this, but I was of the opinion being "dishonored" meant you were with child out of wedlock and not that maidenhead had been taken out of wedlock.

I think it can go anyway. IIRC there is a mention of how riding a horse can make a high born girl loose her maidenhead. So it would be difficult to tell if an unmarried high born girl was a virgin, unless she was pregnant, or caught with a man.

The westerosi have a medieval-like morality; from their point of view, a woman who has sex before wedding has lost her honor, she is no longer respectable or honourable, she is a slut, a whore, damaged goods.

Consent has nothing to do with it, because women didn't have the right to give consent or to negate it; before marriage women weren't allowed to have sex, and after marriage they had the obligation to have sex with their husbands, and only with them. If a woman didn't follow those rules, she was no longer honourable.

And of course, it would be said that the man who had sex with her has taken her honor from her, or dishonored her. Ser Barristan shares that medieval morality

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think he's all that bad. I think he was just too rash, and he should not have called in at Kingslanding calling for Rhaegar's head. It was kind of a stupid thing to do when you're dealing with someone as mad as Aerys.

About him deflowering Ashara, we don't know if he actually did it, and I don't think he's the type to force her or anything like that. He's still a Stark, and Starks have strict notions of honour.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the way I see it:

boy meets girl

boy gets interested in girl

boy is one of the richest heirs in the seven kingdoms, firstborn, badass, with some attitute

boy woos girl

girl gets interested in boy

sex happens

nothing unhonarable here folks. everybody loves sex. unless he spat in their faces afterwards, i really don't see a problem.

big fucking deal, every girl gets to lose her virginity sometime

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a bit of a misinterpretation going on here that should be clarified. I have seen that Barristan said Brandon "dishonored" Ashara and I have seen Barristan said she was "dishonored" and then turned to a Stark. Those two notions are incorrect see "The King Breaker" in ADWD

"..., and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?"

He never mentions Brandon's name for one, and he's definitely not saying that she was dishonored and THEN turned to a Stark. As I stated before he was never clear on which Stark "dishonored" Ashara, but Edric Dayne's details of those exact events suggest that is was Ned and not Brandon that dishonored his aunt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That was as much a trial as Ned got. Aerys had no right to flatout murder brandon and ESPECIALLY rickard who did absolutely nothing and was tied up in a suit of armor and roasted alive. That's no duel, it's murder.

And yes ofcourse, fire the champion, fire! Yes Ser Fire! the great knight of westeros! Gimme a break.

Like I said it wasnt a fair trial but it was a trial like it or not. IIRC Rickard called for trial by combat, Aerys agreed and choose his champion, wildfire. He was mad and the king and no one dared to interfere and so the Starks died a horrible death. Never said it was fair or just, though Brandon did basicly commit treason by asking for Rhaegars head.

If you threaten the King or any other member of the royal family in mediaval times you will be executed, its treason which is punishable by death. So if Bradon did want to kill Rhaeger and told this to the King then Aerys had every right to punish him, its a shame about Rickard

You call this a trial? Burning a man and expecting him to live.

I doubt Aerys expected Rickard to live, its the very reason he choose wildfire, if Rickard loses that means Brandon is guilty and if he is guilty he is to be executed for his crime.

The "come out and die" quote is tricky because we don't know the context where it was said or if he used those words. What about running around with noble maidens? Is it right by medieval standards

True we dont know exactly what he said, but we do know he asked for Rhaegar to fight him with the intent to kill him, you cant do that with the royal family.

Kings abusing their powers is not uncommon, same with high lords. If Brandon would have done the same with some other northern lords daughter and the lord would have come for his head, the Starks would have every right to have the lord punished even killed, they are their overlords they can do whatever they want only the King is above them.

Aerys had the power to do whatever he wanted and no one opposed him until Jon Arryn rebelled.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like I said it wasnt a fair trial but it was a trial like it or not. IIRC Rickard called for trial by combat, Aerys agreed and choose his champion, wildfire. He was mad and the king and no one dared to interfere and so the Starks died a horrible death. Never said it was fair or just, though Brandon did basicly commit treason by asking for Rhaegars head.

If you threaten the King or any other member of the royal family in mediaval times you will be executed, its treason which is punishable by death. So if Bradon did want to kill Rhaeger and told this to the King then Aerys had every right to punish him, its a shame about Rickard

I doubt Aerys expected Rickard to live, its the very reason he choose wildfire, if Rickard loses that means Brandon is guilty and if he is guilty he is to be executed for his crime.

True we dont know exactly what he said, but we do know he asked for Rhaegar to fight him with the intent to kill him, you cant do that with the royal family.

Kings abusing their powers is not uncommon, same with high lords. If Brandon would have done the same with some other northern lords daughter and the lord would have come for his head, the Starks would have every right to have the lord punished even killed, they are their overlords they can do whatever they want only the King is above them.

Aerys had the power to do whatever he wanted and no one opposed him until Jon Arryn rebelled.

Aerys expecting Rickard to die proves that it wasn't a trial since the latter didn't stand a chance. This was a trial by combat and Fire is not a champion, this is spouting from a madman. What if Stark called Ice as his champion? How would they know who win? Aerys could have picked any of the KG btw. A trial where the accused doesn't stand a chance to prove his innocence isn't one; they could have hanged him as a form of trial...

Aerys believes that he has the power to do whatever he wanted. But that's a fallacy that only clueless king believes. Consent is important in a rule and Aerys was never an absolutist king. If you don't have the agreement of your principal lords (and if you've been fed information that some of them were plotting against you), it is very stupid to kill one and his heir; and the heir of another great lord while asking for the head of another great lord. Aerys was definitely demented if he expected people he just shitted on to comply to his whims.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd say he sounds like Robert, but slightly better. Ned Stark said Lyanna had "a little of the wolf's blood" in her and Brandon had "more than a little," if I remember correctly. I tend to think of him as a wild, immensely charismatic extrovert.

Selmy said Brandon had "dishonored" Ashara by sleeping with her and impregnating her, but it sounds like she cared for him enough to grieve for him. Selmy implies that too. The worst thing about this is that I think Brandon was already betrothed to Catelyn at this time. And Selmy's biased against Brandon 'cause he loved Ashara. Daenerys pursued an affair with Daario despite being engaged to Hizdahr, but Selmy was careful to describe their romance in a way that wouldn't besmirch her honor. But it was the same sort of thing. One of his KG brothers had a paramour, but Selmy didn't seem pariticularly bothered by that either, though that knight was breaking his vows by having one. He's prejudiced against Brandon's relationship with Ashara because it indirectly caused her death.

Lady Dustin too is biased. She said "Brandon didn't want her [Catelyn]." But was this before or after he met Catelyn? It's possible Catelyn was more excited about Brandon than Brandon was about Catelyn, but it sounds like Brandon was charming and funny in Catelyn's presence too. He respected her enough to not kill Petyr because she asked. I don't think Lady Dustin's lying about what Brandon said about the betrothal, but Brandon may have been, or he may have changed his mind later. Also, Lady Dustin loved Brandon - their little fling sounded entirely consensual, and I don't particularly have a problem with it.

The thing that doesn't make Brandon sound good is the whole "he liked the look of blood on his sword" thing. Both meanings are a bit...icky. But still...so what? Ned said Brandon was even wilder than Lyanna, but it sounds to me like he (judging by his actions) was still a better person overall than say, Robert or Oberyn Martell.

and if I remember correctly the "blood on his sword" comment came from little finger. probably the most untrustworthy source available. I think he did what any brother would do if told his sister had been abducted. Seems like Rhaegar shoulda used a little more tact and Brandon shoulda collected more info.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you threaten the King or any other member of the royal family in mediaval times you will be executed, its treason which is punishable by death. So if Bradon did want to kill Rhaeger and told this to the King then Aerys had every right to punish him, its a shame about Rickard

This isn't medieval times, it's Westeros.

I doubt Aerys expected Rickard to live, its the very reason he choose wildfire, if Rickard loses that means Brandon is guilty and if he is guilty he is to be executed for his crime.

Kings abusing their powers is not uncommon, same with high lords. If Brandon would have done the same with some other northern lords daughter and the lord would have come for his head, the Starks would have every right to have the lord punished even killed, they are their overlords they can do whatever they want only the King is above them.

Aerys had the power to do whatever he wanted and no one opposed him until Jon Arryn rebelled.

Once the Targaryens lost their dragons their hold on the Seven Kingdoms was only tenable as long as the high lords consented to their rule. King Aerys decided that he could kill the Lord of arguably the top house in the kingdoms along with his heir, and just to top it off he would kill the heir of another of the top seven houses and he wouldn't have to answer to anyone. How did that turn out?

Brandon's rash actions were the result of the rash actions of Rhaegar. Aerys was lucky the Starks didn't call their banners and bring a host down to King's Landing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aerys expecting Rickard to die proves that it wasn't a trial since the latter didn't stand a chance. This was a trial by combat and Fire is not a champion, this is spouting from a madman. What if Stark called Ice as his champion? How would they know who win? Aerys could have picked any of the KG btw. A trial where the accused doesn't stand a chance to prove his innocence isn't one; they could have hanged him as a form of trial...

Both of them were charged with treason, they were gonna be excetuced anyway. Rickard had the right for trial by combat, Aerys humored him by accepting it. It was a rigged trial sure, never said it wasnt.

You act like Im trying to prove Aerys is a saint he isnt, I simply replied to someone who claimed Brandon and Rickard were simply murdered which isnt true they were charged with treason Rickard wanted a trial by combat Aerys gave him one. Neither Stark deserved to die like they did, but this just shows how truly mad Aerys was already.

Aerys believes that he has the power to do whatever he wanted. But that's a fallacy that only clueless king believes. Consent is important in a rule and Aerys was never an absolutist king. If you don't have the agreement of your principal lords (and if you've been fed information that some of them were plotting against you), it is very stupid to kill one and his heir; and the heir of another great lord while asking for the head of another great lord. Aerys was definitely demented if he expected people he just shitted on to comply to his whims.

Like it or not thats excatly what happened, we can call Aerys mad, clueless, stupid or demented it doesnt change the fact that he thought he can have people killed on a whim without any kind of backslash.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This isn't medieval times, it's Westeros

And Westeros is inspired somewhat by our medieval times, surely you dont seriously want to debate that fact.

Nonetheless treason is punishable by death in Westeros just like it was in medieval times, so what exactly was the point of your post?.

Once the Targaryens lost their dragons their hold on the Seven Kingdoms was only tenable as long as the high lords consented to their rule. King Aerys decided that he could kill the Lord of arguably the top house in the kingdoms along with his heir, and just to top it off he would kill the heir of another of the top seven houses and he wouldn't have to answer to anyone. How did that turn out?

Brandon's rash actions were the result of the rash actions of Rhaegar. Aerys was lucky the Starks didn't call their banners and bring a host down to King's Landing.

Truth to be told if not for Jon Arryn showing some courage and rebelling, Aerys would have gotten away with everything he has done nicely. He obviously didnt give a shit about the other lords when he was burning people alive for fun, I doubt he cared what the consequences of his actions were. There is a reason he is dubbed the Mad King after all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Both of them were charged with treason, they were gonna be excetuced anyway. Rickard had the right for trial by combat, Aerys humored him by accepting it. It was a rigged trial sure, never said it wasnt.

You act like Im trying to prove Aerys is a saint he isnt, I simply replied to someone who claimed Brandon and Rickard were simply murdered which isnt true they were charged with treason Rickard wanted a trial by combat Aerys gave him one. Neither Stark deserved to die like they did, but this just shows how truly mad Aerys was already.

Like it or not thats excatly what happened, we can call Aerys mad, clueless, stupid or demented it doesnt change the fact that he thought he can have people killed on a whim without any kind of backslash.

Brandon may have committed treason, but Rickard did not, neither did Eddard, nor Robert, yet the Mad King wanted all of them dead. You forget the simple truth that Varys speaks. "Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides." The Targaryens have power, only because the Great Houses of Westeros allow them. If you want to say that the Aerys had the right to execute Brandon and Rickard, because he was the king, then you must also be willing to allow for the Lord and the heir of a great house, especially of House Stark, one of the oldest and most powerful, to make demands of the king, and crown prince. Did Brandon act rashly, yes, was he out of line, absolutely not.

In one of your earlier posts, you said that the following.

And Aery did have the right to kill Brandon, in medival society you cannot threaten members of the royal family, escpecaily in the way Brandon has done. I mean its quite the ride from Riverrun to KL if all you can come up with in that time is "Rhaeger come out and die" you deserve to die for being stupid.

Again, I will say that Brandon has the right to demand the return of his sister, in any way he wishes, because Aerys Targaryen only has power because the Starks, Arryns, Lannisters, Baratheons, Tullys, Martells, Tyrells, and Greyjoys allow him. They are allowed more room to make mistakes, and not be severely punished, because they are the most powerful houses, and give the Iron Throne its authority. A politician that abandons or neglects his base or most powerful supporters is doomed, and that is what happened to the Targaryen dynasty, because Aerys (and Rhaegar to a much lesser extend) forgot that the Targaryens hold no real power. Aerys failed to see that as rash as Brandon was, Aerys was too harsh in his punishment of executing the Lord of Winterfell, his heir, and his second son (and the lord of Storm's End to boot), and this would only hurt the Iron Throne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brandon may have committed treason, but Rickard did not, neither did Eddard, nor Robert, yet the Mad King wanted all of them dead...Did Brandon act rashly, yes, was he out of line, absolutely not.

And you are missing the point. First I have never said Rickard deserved to die or that calling for Neds and Roberts heads were just.

Aerys did not have the right to execute Rickard and Brandon because he was king I never said that either, he had the right to execute them because they were charged with high treason which in Rickard case was not true sure, but in Brandons it was.

Brandon acted rashly and was out of line when he threatened the crown prince, all I said was that if he was stupid enough to think he can get away with threatening Rhaeger in from of his mad father who was the king, an act which is basicly treason, then he deserved to die for his stupidity.

I have nothing againts Brandon or the rest of the Starks and couldnt care less about the Targs, but in a monarchy you cant go around threatening the royal family and expect to stay alive afterwards.

Again, I will say that Brandon has the right to demand the return of his sister, in any way he wishes, because Aerys Targaryen only has power because the Starks, Arryns, Lannisters, Baratheons, Tullys, Martells, Tyrells, and Greyjoys allow him. They are allowed more room to make mistakes, and not be severely punished, because they are the most powerful houses, and give the Iron Throne its authority. A politician that abandons or neglects his base or most powerful supporters is doomed, and that is what happened to the Targaryen dynasty, because Aerys (and Rhaegar to a much lesser extend) forgot that the Targaryens hold no real power. Aerys failed to see that as rash as Brandon was, Aerys was too harsh in his punishment of executing the Lord of Winterfell, his heir, and his second son (and the lord of Storm's End to boot), and this would only hurt the Iron Throne.

Agree Brandon had every right to demand his sisters return, it was not this demand of his which got him arrested and charged. But he cannot call for Rhaegars head, not infront of Aerys - who at the time was already known to be crazy - or for anyone elses head from the royal family, because that is treason. If Aerys had stopped at having Brandon executed everything would have been according to law.

A different king might have allowed Rickard to ransom his son, but Aerys wanted blood. Going after Rickard, Eddard and Robert had nothing to do with law, that happened cause Aerys was bat-shit crazy.

And sure a king only has power as long as his subjects obey him thus allowing him to rule, no one ever disputed that. (Though I would take the Greyjoys off that list, ever since they ceased to be Kings of the Iron Islands and the Riverlands they were not that powerful.) Dont see the point arguing whether Aerys was a good politican or not when he obviously did not care what the consequences of his actions were once he went mad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a bit of a misinterpretation going on here that should be clarified. I have seen that Barristan said Brandon "dishonored" Ashara and I have seen Barristan said she was "dishonored" and then turned to a Stark. Those two notions are incorrect see "The King Breaker" in ADWD

"..., and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?"

He never mentions Brandon's name for one, and he's definitely not saying that she was dishonored and THEN turned to a Stark. As I stated before he was never clear on which Stark "dishonored" Ashara, but Edric Dayne's details of those exact events suggest that is was Ned and not Brandon that dishonored his aunt.

Actually it pretty much does say she was first dishonoured, and later turned to a Stark, it just doesn't say she was dishonoured by a Stark.

She was dishonoured at Harrenhal.

One of the final acts at Harrenhal is the awarding of the Crown of Love and Beauty, by Rhaegar. She didn't look to anyone until after that event, or else it would make no sense for Barristan to think changing that event could have chaned who she looked to.

And others of Barristan's thoughts very strongly indicate that the Stark she loved, if she loved any, was Brandon.

Barristan thinks that youg girls always go for 'fire' men, not 'mud' men. He is thinking about Dany at the time, but the only other young girl we know that he has been closely involved romantically with (at least in his terms) is Ashara. Therefore he is thinking that Ashara chose a fire man over a mud man.

Ned is quintessential mud.

Brandon is quintessential fire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If he went in a mad rage and acted before thinking I could get that.

But I think Cat says once when she thinks of him that he assured her he would return to her soon and left.

Am I misremembering? Still on a re-read.

Because if he had some time to think this through before going there or anyone dissuaded him on how to handle it and he didn't listen, then it was sort of stupid.

And it shows he and Ned are different. Ned would not handle it that way exactly. Not saying he would do the right/smartest thing either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ned Dayne says that Eddard Stark loved Ashara, not that he slept with her. It's perfectly possible that Ashara didn't feel impressed by young, shy Eddard, and felt attracted to older, bold Brandon. Brandon could have sleeped with the girl Eddard liked, which would make him an even greater douchebag.

as someone who slept with a girl my lil bro liked i have to respectfully disagree
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And Westeros is inspired somewhat by our medieval times, surely you dont seriously want to debate that fact.

Nonetheless treason is punishable by death in Westeros just like it was in medieval times, so what exactly was the point of your post?.

There's nothing to debate. Being inspired by doesn't mean it's a carbon copy. So let's stick to Westeros.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On Brandon dishonoring Ashara, I think it was Ned, and I think it wasn't a rape, but more of a thing of heat of the moment type of stuff.

I think Ned and Ashara loved eachother, and sicne Ned was the second born, it wasn't as important to who he would marry, and I think in the heat of the moment him and Ashara did it out of wedlock, but they might have planned to marry anyway, and then the war happened.

Isn't it mentioned somewhere that Ashara lost her lover in the war? Even if it was Ned, she still lost him. It wasn't a death lost, but a knowledge that they could never be together, and with the only thing to keep remembering him by not working out so great, with the stillborn and such, she flung herself out a tower, or said fuck Westeros, I'mma be a Septa in Essos. Cuz why not?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

and if I remember correctly the "blood on his sword" comment came from little finger. probably the most untrustworthy source available. I think he did what any brother would do if told his sister had been abducted. Seems like Rhaegar shoulda used a little more tact and Brandon shoulda collected more info.

I believe that comment was by Lady Dustin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...