Brandon Stark, the douchebag?

[Shierashiera]

How is this hypocritical? Ned wasn't Brandon after all and didn't react like a hothead In Lyanna's case, and IIRC he never said or thought Brandon's reaction was the right one.

For me it is hypocritical. Starks knew what it feels like having a member of your family kidnapped and in that case a woman and a dwarf, people who by Westerosi standards are considered weak. Ned ought to have handled the case with more delicacy. Jaime just like Brandon was a man of action. Ned never said that Brandon's reaction was wrong either. It is moments like these that determine a good leader. Act in a reckless manner and the game is lost. Robert's rebellion technically started when Rhaegar took Lyanna Stark. The war of the five kings when Catelyn Stark took Tyrion. Poor Starks, brave people terrible judgement...

[Harle The Handsome]

Ser Lepus, on 24 August 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

Ned Dayne says that Eddard Stark loved Ashara, not that he slept with her. It's perfectly possible that Ashara didn't feel impressed by young, shy Eddard, and felt attracted to older, bold Brandon. Brandon could have sleeped with the girl Eddard liked, which would make him an even greater douchebag.

as someone who slept with a girl my lil bro liked i have to respectfully disagree

OK, perhaps I am misreading an overly brief response here, but are you really saying that had Brandon bedded Ashara, knowing that his younger brother liked her doesn't make him a douche bag, because, if that were so, you would intrinsically be a douche bag?

[danm_999]

For me it is hypocritical. Starks knew what it feels like having a member of your family kidnapped and in that case a woman and a dwarf, people who by Westerosi standards are considered weak. Ned ought to have handled the case with more delicacy. Jaime just like Brandon was a man of action. Ned never said that Brandon's reaction was wrong either. It is moments like these that determine a good leader. Act in a reckless manner and the game is lost. Robert's rebellion technically started when Rhaegar took Lyanna Stark. The war of the five kings when Catelyn Stark took Tyrion. Poor Starks, brave people terrible judgement...

It's not hypocrisy because Ned was displeased Catelyn had done such a thing, and would not have done so himself.

[Helgar]

It's stupid that I even have to say this, but willingly having sex with a single person is not bad. Neither Brandon nor Barbrey had been promised to anyone when he took her virginity. They found out about the Catelyn situation later, as we learn in ADWD.

About his venture to King's Landing, I cannot even believe people are overlooking Rhaegar's MASSIVE assholery - which, by the way, was what started everything - and crucify Brandon for not sitting on his arse. Brandon and Aerys were not near as responsible in starting the war as Rhaegar was, so what gives? Should Brandon have made an inquiry about it?

It seems that the board has made its verdict already: any character that opposes R+L is a bad person.

[Gandalf the Grey]

Brandon and Aerys were not near as responsible in starting the war as Rhaegar was, so what gives? Should Brandon have made an inquiry about it?

It seems that the board has made its verdict already: any character that opposes R+L is a bad person.

I agree, although I'm pretty sure Aerys was the most responsible for it. If he had actually been a good ruler the rebellion probably wouldn't have happened.

[ElizaMartell]

I don't think we've got enough about him to say he is a douchebag. Sure, he's impulsive and does as he pleases, but these are traits that describe other Starks such as Lyanna, Robb and even Arya.

[corbon]

Isn't it mentioned somewhere that Ashara lost her lover in the war?

Barristan muses that maybe that was one of the reasons she committed suicide. He doesn't know, and is only trying to guess though. What that does tell us is that he thinks she had a lover that she lost (either to death or to marriage we guess).

OK, perhaps I am misreading an overly brief response here, but are you really saying that had Brandon bedded Ashara, knowing that his younger brother liked her doesn't make him a douche bag, because, if that were so, you would intrinsically be a douche bag?

More that it simply doesn't make him a douchebag, absent further information. Just because Brother A (maybe, that is very far from confirmed) likes Girl B, that does not make Brother C automatically a douchebag if he sleeps with her. For all we know Brother C may have liked her first. Or she may have rejected Brother A and chosen Brother B in 'fair competition'. Or any number of other reasons.

Frankly I find the thinking that makes Brother B automatically a douchebag in this situation somewhat barbaric. It turns Girl B into an object with no agency and means the only important thing becomes 'who called dibs first' between the brothers. What a disgusting way to work out relationships!

About his venture to King's Landing, I cannot even believe people are overlooking Rhaegar's MASSIVE assholery - which, by the way, was what started everything - and crucify Brandon for not sitting on his arse. Brandon and Aerys were not near as responsible in starting the war as Rhaegar was, so what gives? Should Brandon have made an inquiry about it?

It seems that the board has made its verdict already: any character that opposes R+L is a bad person.

No one overlooks it.

Quite a few people actually use their brain and understand that there is a lot we don't know about that situation (everything basically).

Rhaegars apparent actions don't fit the characterisations given him by he people who knew him - including neutrals such as Jaime, opposites such as Ned and people willing to be truthful about Aerys such as Barristan. That suggests that maybe there is more going in than we know.

Then there is the way they completely disappeared. Why do that? If its pure assholery, why not just go back to KL and defy the Starks to do anything - make it public that it is Lyanna's choice too.

The only logical reason to disappear is that it makes it impossible for anyone (either Starks or Aerys, who distrusted Rhaegar and would probably not have approved of a second marriage) to actually do anything constructive. No daring rescues. No assaults. No duels, no direct challenges. There is no useful option for anybody except to talk to each other.

But then Brandon does something dangerous, stupid and useless. And Aerys picks his madness up to a new level in response. Not exactly predictable, and exactly the sort of responses disappearing should have forestalled.

Then there is the fact that we have no response to the 'kidnapping' by Rickard - whose responsibility to respond it is, not Brandon's. Not even after the arrest of Brandon is Rickard said to be coming south to both defend his son and seek justice for his daughter. Why is that? Perhaps Rickard had information we don't? Perhaps Rhaegar and Lyanna were a bit more responsible than it seems? Perhaps they told Rickard what was going on by Raven? Perhaps (unlikely, I agree) he even agreed, seeing that advantages - getting both lands and titles/positions etc in 'restitution' from the crown, as well as an even better marriage for his daughter. But then Brandon goes off irresponsibly, half cocked and uselessly and spoils everything.

And then, how come Brandon hears and what does he hear and who from?

Is he deliberately fed misinformation? Accidentally? Or does he hear the truth and is he just jumping the gun like an wild wolf with extra idiocy?

WE DON'T KNOW.

And thats the first reason why Rhaegar doesn't get condemned as soundly as Brandon, generally. Rhaegar's actions simply aren't known as clearly, and there are many many ways that they could be less assholery than they first appear. In this case Rhaegar is not being 'forgiven' judgement is beng withheld.

The second reason is that what Rhaegar did is something that is bad, but can be worked out satisfactorily by all involved without bloodshed still.

What Brandon did crosses that line. When someone demands the crown prince come out and die, and line has been crossed and death is on the line - thats the legal penalty for his crime.

The third reason is more nebulous, but is that what Rhaegar did, even at its worst possible, might still have been 'necessary' in order to fulfill a world-saving prophecy. We don't know much about that, but there are plenty of hints that Rahegar, and others who study such things, believe something like that is possible.

However, there is no excuse at all for what Brandon did. There are so many better ways to accomplish anything he wanted to accomplish.

[Gandalf the Grey]

More that it simply doesn't make him a douchebag, absent further information. Just because Brother A (maybe, that is very far from confirmed) likes Girl B, that does not make Brother C automatically a douchebag if he sleeps with her. For all we know Brother C may have liked her first. Or she may have rejected Brother A and chosen Brother B in 'fair competition'. Or any number of other reasons.

Frankly I find the thinking that makes Brother B automatically a douchebag in this situation somewhat barbaric. It turns Girl B into an object with no agency and means the only important thing becomes 'who called dibs first' between the brothers. What a disgusting way to work out relationships!

That paragraph doesn't make sense to me, are you sure you checked you wrote the right letters for all of those?

Then there is the way they completely disappeared. Why do that? If its pure assholery, why not just go back to KL and defy the Starks to do anything - make it public that it is Lyanna's choice too.

The only logical reason to disappear is that it makes it impossible for anyone (either Starks or Aerys, who distrusted Rhaegar and would probably not have approved of a second marriage) to actually do anything constructive. No daring rescues. No assaults. No duels, no direct challenges. There is no useful option for anybody except to talk to each other.

Right sure, but this is all operating under the assumption that it was Lyanna's choice.

I think it's fair to say that all the evidence that was available to Brandon and Ned was that it was a kidnapping.

[Helgar]

However, there is no excuse at all for what Brandon did. There are so many better ways to accomplish anything he wanted to accomplish.

Sure. But the same is true for Rhaegar. And even though Brandon's actions can, in fact, be excused (because, after all, his sister had been kidnapped that he knew of and nobody else seemed likely to act), how do you excuse Rhaegar's treatment of House Stark? House Baratheon? House Martell? How can anyone excuse what he did to Elia and his own children? Is it that he was trying to make a prophecy baby with a woman he hardly knew, to save the world from an impending catastrophe caused by an army of undead creatures that had not been sighted in millennia, were rumored to be the product of myth, were going to attack the Seven Kingdoms from somewhere that already had its own defenders (the Wall), would somehow overpower the massive strength of a prospering south and a winter-hardened north, both of which were ripe with people who, although admittedly never having had a prophecy of their own, were still capable enough of leading their men to battle if need be, only to be ultimately defeated by a child bearing a fire sword because a book on prophecies said so?

I cannot understand why it matters whether Rhaegar believed having a child with Lyanna would save the Seven Kingdoms from eternal damnation, when what he had to do to save them was quite possibly the most morally reprehensible act that can be, without being evil.

Getting back to Brandon, he was clearly one of the most inconsiderate characters in the series, but even he had the decency to stop sleeping around with Barbrey Ryswell once he heard he would be marrying Catelyn. Rhaegar was already married when he started sleeping around with Lyanna, and had two children with her. And of course Brandon was not a douchebag, just... very reckless. Very very reckless.

[corbon]

That paragraph doesn't make sense to me, are you sure you checked you wrote the right letters for all of those?

Yeah, my bad. I slipped Brother C into Brother B in the second half, sorry.

More that it simply doesn't make him a douchebag, absent further information. Just because Brother A Ned (maybe, that is very far from confirmed) likes Girl B Ashara, that does not make Brother C Brandon automatically a douchebag if he sleeps with her. For all we know Brother C Brandon may have liked her first. Or she may have rejected Brother A Ned and chosen Brother C Brandon in 'fair competition'. Or any number of other reasons.

Frankly I find the thinking that makes Brother C Brandon automatically a douchebag in this situation somewhat barbaric. It turns Girl B Ashara into an object with no agency and means the only important thing becomes 'who called dibs first' between the brothers. What a disgusting way to work out relationships!

There you go, simplified it for you.

Right sure, but this is all operating under the assumption that it was Lyanna's choice.

Given that there is a significant body of evidence that suggests it was Lyanna's choice, and none at all with any respectable veracity that suggests it was not, thats a at least as reasonable a starting position as that it was not her choice.

I think it's fair to say that all the evidence that was available to Brandon and Ned was that it was a kidnapping.

Ned is not involved. Post ToJ he clearly does not believe it was a kidnapping, and his actions prior to that, taking only his most personally trusted friends with him to find her, suggest he didn't think it was a kidnapping before that either.

Brandon, we have no idea what 'evidence' he had, and it is just as possible that he'd go off half cocked due to the insult to his house whether Lyanna agreed or not. You will note that he does not, to Jaime's recollection, mention her return at all.

I don't think it is fair at all to assume Brandon believed it was a kidnapping, or that he had any evidence either way.

Sure. But the same is true for Rhaegar.

Not true at all.

If Rhaegar and Lyanna want, or need, to get married, and Rickard says no (he's already given his word elsewhere) and Aerys says so (he picked out Rhaegar's first wife remember, and no longer trusts Rhaegar) what 'legal' and normal options recourse do they have? None. The least troublesome way to achieve their objective is to run off together, disappear, possibly/probably leaving word of what they are doing, and return a year or so later, amrried with a baby - at that point things have gone far enough no one will want to 'go back' and undo it all, so the crown makes restitution in the form of titles, positions, proerties etc to the Starks, and possibly Baratheons, and its all good, more or less.

Brandon on the other hand has various other legal recourses, not to mention that its Rickard's business not his. But Brandon doesn't even mention the purported 'kidnapping'. He just commits barefaced treason, in a way that cannot possibly have any useful consequences. Thats not just stupid, its unforgivable. He did nothing that could help him or his sister, and made things infinitely worse than they were for no reason other than pride (it certainly wasn;t concern for his sister, since he didn't mention her at all).

And even though Brandon's actions can, in fact, be excused (because, after all, his sister had been kidnapped that he knew of and nobody else seemed likely to act),

That would excuse him seeking some form of legal redress. But he didn't. It does not excuse outright treason, and it especially does not excuse outright treason without even referencing the supposed crime.

how do you excuse Rhaegar's treatment of House Stark? House Baratheon?

I don't, except to say that it looks bad now, but we don't know all the details.

And to add that, whatever else, its not the end of the world. So he took a woman and disappeared with her. That bad. Its not go to war bad. Its not rebellion bad. Its find out the details, make some reparations, possibly suffer some punishment bad. But no one has to die, especially before the details are known and especially if Lyanna was complicit, as it very much appears she was.

House Martell? How can anyone excuse what he did to Elia and his own children?

He didn't do anything to them. All he did was go away for a year or so, leaving them very well protected and cared for. Just like any noble lord does when fulfilling his obligations elsewhere - like Ned for example, leaving Catelyn and the boys at Winterfell while he goes to KL.

Note that he is still married to Elia, she's still his wife, Aegon is still his heir and running away with and even marrying Lyanna does nothing to change that.

Note also that Aerys, though increasingly paranoic and distrusting of Rhaegar, is hardly going to take out any frustration on Elia or her kids. She's his choice for Rhaegar's wife after all, and his guarantee of Dhorne's allegiance, and they are his grandkids and much to young to be a threat to him.

Is it that he was trying to make a prophecy baby with a woman he hardly knew, (snip a bunch of overblown and meaningless stuff) a book on prophecies said so?

You know this is a world with dragons, a 700 foot wall of ice, undead monsters, years-long seasons and all right? You know his family has a long history of prophetic dreams, right? You know that this stuff is 'real' in his world right?

You know he's probably right, right?

You know, if Jon has any important part to play...

I cannot understand why it matters whether Rhaegar believed having a child with Lyanna would save the Seven Kingdoms from eternal damnation, when what he had to do to save them was quite possibly the most morally reprehensible act that can be, without being evil.

Except its not all that morally reprehensible. All he's really done is married Lyanna against her families' will.

The evidence clearly suggest that Lyanna was all good with it, and also that he actually married her. And he could even have been faithful, since Elia and he were never in love, but an arranged marriage, and she could no longer have children.

You seem to be under the impression that Robert's claim of rape and kidnapping has some resmblence to fact. I suggest you read around a bit more. The evidence available to us clearly suggests otherwise, very much otherwise.

Getting back to Brandon, he was clearly one of the most inconsiderate characters in the series, but even he had the decency to stop sleeping around with Barbrey Ryswell once he heard he would be marrying Catelyn. Rhaegar was already married when he started sleeping around with Lyanna, and had two children with her. And of course Brandon was not a douchebag, just... very reckless. Very very reckless.

We don't know exactly when Brandon stopped sleeping with Barbrey, but really that doesn't matter.

Rhaegar was in an arranged marriage and Elia couldn't have any more kids. He almost certainly married Lyanna. So no, he's probably not sleeping around, and even if he is, thats not the worst crime around. Its bad, but no one has to die from it.

And it has a purpose.

Calling out for the royal family to come out and die though, is treason punishable by death. Someone has to die, probably.

Pointlessly stupid too, with no purpose.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Why no one doubt Jamie saying that Brandon just rode to KL and threatened Rhaegar but everyone doubt Robert and Bran saying that Rhaegar raped Lyanna?

[Toos]

But Brandon doesn't even mention the purported 'kidnapping'.

I think that we have very little evidence that he didn't during his imprisonment mention that Rhaegar kidnapped his sister. I doubt that no one asked him why he threatened Rhaegar.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

For me it is hypocritical. Starks knew what it feels like having a member of your family kidnapped and in that case a woman and a dwarf, people who by Westerosi standards are considered weak. Ned ought to have handled the case with more delicacy. Jaime just like Brandon was a man of action. Ned never said that Brandon's reaction was wrong either. It is moments like these that determine a good leader. Act in a reckless manner and the game is lost. Robert's rebellion technically started when Rhaegar took Lyanna Stark. The war of the five kings when Catelyn Stark took Tyrion. Poor Starks, brave people terrible judgement...

Are you forgetting something? Did Lyanna threw mad king's daughter out of the windows while being a guest in Kings Landing?? Tyrion was a potential suspect with evidence(flawed) behind it. And Cat took him on the name of kings justice. As far as I know, she didn't rape Tyrion.

Jaime started the war of the five kings when he threw innocent boy out of the window while being guest in his house.

[David Selig]

Why no one doubt Jamie saying that Brandon just rode to KL and threatened Rhaegar but everyone doubt Robert and Bran saying that Rhaegar raped Lyanna?

Because Jaime saw what happened first hand, and the other two weren't eyewitnesses to what happened to Lyanna. Completely different cases.

[Harle The Handsome]

More that it simply doesn't make him a douchebag, absent further information. Just because Brother A Ned (maybe, that is very far from confirmed) likes Girl B Ashara, that does not make Brother C Brandon automatically a douchebag if he sleeps with her. For all we know Brother C Brandon may have liked her first. Or she may have rejected Brother A Ned and chosen Brother C Brandon in 'fair competition'. Or any number of other reasons.

Frankly I find the thinking that makes Brother C Brandon automatically a douchebag in this situation somewhat barbaric. It turns Girl B Ashara into an object with no agency and means the only important thing becomes 'who called dibs first' between the brothers. What a disgusting way to work out relationships!

It is a little douchebaggy, especially if you try to piece what we know together. First, we know Brandon was to marry Catelyn shortly after Harrenhall. He was already betrothed to Catelyn before he left for Harrenhall, since he had time to tell Lady Dustin about the marriage. So, a betrothed man shags a woman/girl his brother has eys for and he isn't a douchebag?

Then to make things worse, she gets pregnant (dishonored). Since Brandon is already betrothed, this is positively scandalous. To protect his family's honor, Eddard has to make it appear that HE was the Stark who got her pregnant (why Barristan has nothing but positive thoughts towards The Ned). To make matters worse, Brandon runs off to KL to get himself killed, requiring Ned to step in to fulfill the Stark's betrothal agreement to Riverrun, forcing Ned to abandon the woman he supposedly impregnated.

Maybe I am reading too much into it, but yeah, if that doesn't make Brandon a douchebag the word has no meaning.

[David Selig]

Brandon was betrothed to Catelyn since he was 15, BTW. Unless Rickard kept it secret from him, he knew it when he was having a relationship with Barbrey Ryswell.

[Field of Asphodel]

and if I remember correctly the "blood on his sword" comment came from little finger. probably the most untrustworthy source available. I think he did what any brother would do if told his sister had been abducted. Seems like Rhaegar shoulda used a little more tact and Brandon shoulda collected more info.

It was actually Lady Dustin who said it during her conversation with Theon in the crypts (page 547).

'Brandon loved his sword. He loved to hone it. 'I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a woman's cunt,' he used to say. And how he loved to use it. 'A blood sword is a beautiful thing,' he told me once.

Later,

...but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes...

I believe Lady Dustin here. She's basically just reminiscing out loud, Theon was there to be our eyes and ears so that we as readers can get a better handle on Lady Dustin. Also, it doesn't sound like the kind of thing anyone would make up. What does she stand to gain by describing Brandon this way? If she wanted to influence Theon, she ought to have made up a story about Ned. So I think she's telling the truth.

[The Fallen]

For me it is hypocritical. Starks knew what it feels like having a member of your family kidnapped and in that case a woman and a dwarf, people who by Westerosi standards are considered weak. Ned ought to have handled the case with more delicacy. Jaime just like Brandon was a man of action. Ned never said that Brandon's reaction was wrong either. It is moments like these that determine a good leader. Act in a reckless manner and the game is lost. Robert's rebellion technically started when Rhaegar took Lyanna Stark. The war of the five kings when Catelyn Stark took Tyrion. Poor Starks, brave people terrible judgement...

They arrested Tyrion because they suspected him of trying to kill their son. There is no comparison to Lyanna possibly being kidnapped.

[corbon]

Why no one doubt Jamie saying that Brandon just rode to KL and threatened Rhaegar but everyone doubt Robert and Bran saying that Rhaegar raped Lyanna?

Because Jaime saw what happened first hand, and the other two weren't eyewitnesses to what happened to Lyanna. Completely different cases.

Not only what David said, but also Jaime is pretty much an unbiased bystander here. He's neither in favour of the Targaryens, nor the Starks.

Robert by contrast has his entire worldview, his self-worth, hinging on Lyanna being 'his' girl and not throwing him over for his enemy. If Rhaegar didn't kidnap and rape Lyanna, Robert has nothing in his life and never has had.

So we have a relatively unbiased eyewitness, vs a totally biased person who actually has no idea what happened - was never there and probably had no real contact with anyone who was.

One is believeable.

The other, not so much.

I think that we have very little evidence that he didn't during his imprisonment mention that Rhaegar kidnapped his sister. I doubt that no one asked him why he threatened Rhaegar.

Nonetheless, what we do have is a relatively unbiased witness who says he rode up to the gates and called out for the crown prince to come and and die, and does not mention him saying anything about his sister.

He may have added that later, but that is no excuse for the original action.

And then you compare characters.

Rhaegar is noted widely by people who knew him as serious, committed and honourable (whether or not they are his friends). So when wondering if perhaps he did something sensible that we have no information on to mitigate an apparently out-of-character deed, he gets a little bit of a 'wait and see' pass.

Whereas Brandon is characterised even by his friends as 'wild', reckless, and somewhat selfish and full of himself (probably fairly deservingly in many ways - he sems to have had most of the gifts in the family). So when wondering if perhaps he did something sensible that we have no information on to mitigate an in-character deed, he gets a little less 'wait and see' pass than Rhaegar does.

General note:

I'm not offering Rhaegar a free pass for what he did, or didn't, do. Nor am I saying Brandon didn't have reasons (if not excuses) for his actions.

But the question was asked, why to people seem to excuse Rhaegar somewhat, yet slam Brandon.

I've tried to answer that question.

[corbon]

It is a little douchebaggy, especially if you try to piece what we know together. First, we know Brandon was to marry Catelyn shortly after Harrenhall. He was already betrothed to Catelyn before he left for Harrenhall, since he had time to tell Lady Dustin about the marriage. So, a betrothed man shags a woman/girl his brother has eys for and he isn't a douchebag?

Well, yes, that he's sleeping around with no intent to commit is somewhat douchebaggy.

OTOH Ashara is from Dhorne, and they do things differently there.

But his Ned having eyes for her (which is far from certain BTW) bears no meaning on this unless Brandon paid no attention to her until after Ned made his attentions known, and we have no evidence of this at all (not surprising given we have no real evidence of Ned's attentions in the first place).

Then to make things worse, she gets pregnant (dishonored). Since Brandon is already betrothed, this is positively scandalous. To protect his family's honor, Eddard has to make it appear that HE was the Stark who got her pregnant (why Barristan has nothing but positive thoughts towards The Ned). To make matters worse, Brandon runs off to KL to get himself killed, requiring Ned to step in to fulfill the Stark's betrothal agreement to Riverrun, forcing Ned to abandon the woman he supposedly impregnated.

Maybe I am reading too much into it, but yeah, if that doesn't make Brandon a douchebag the word has no meaning.

Yeah you are reading too much into it. There is no indication at all that Ned claims responsibility for Ashara's disgrace at Harrenhal. Not the slightest hint.