From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XI

[Valkyrja]

well he has suffered enough imo :/

I wanted to claw out Dondarrion's eyes when he set his stupid sword on fire

fucking zombie

i have a lot of feelings ok

Same. :'(

*hugs*

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

LL: Off topic, but I love the avatar. *is a big AD fan* Seriously, I have a hard time watching most things I love more than three times. I've watched the whole series like 5 or 6.

[Lady Lea]

LL: Off topic, but I love the avatar. *is a big AD fan* Seriously, I have a hard time watching most things I love more than three times. I've watched the whole series like 5 or 6.

Aw, thanks :) I love AD too, and Lucille especially! I've lost count of how many times I've seen the series and I STILL find hidden jokes every time I rewatch... it's amazing! I mean these are only a teeny tiny fraction of them and it was ridiculous the amount I missed. Who's your fave character?? :)

BTW I really loved the Sandor pt 2 analysis. Are you going to do more? I am curious about your take on his famous last words...

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Aw, thanks :) I love AD too, and Lucille especially! I've lost count of how many times I've seen the series and I STILL find hidden jokes every time I rewatch... it's amazing! I mean these are only a teeny tiny fraction of them and it was ridiculous the amount I missed. Who's your fave character?? :)

BTW I really loved the Sandor pt 2 analysis. Are you going to do more? I am curious about your take on his famous last words...

A third part is coming. But I just started school again, so I'm taking my time.

I dunno. I really wasn't planning doing his "last words" since Sansa wasn't there. Maybe I'll do it as a bonus part or something.

[Lady Lea]

A third part is coming. But I just started school again, so I'm taking my time.

I dunno. I really wasn't planning doing his "last words" since Sansa wasn't there. Maybe I'll do it as a bonus part or something.

Well looking forward to it then!

[brashcandy]

Just came across this thread in the Winds of Winter subforum, which some of you might be interested in participating in: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72461-who-will-come-to-sansas-rescue/

Look out for some Sansa bashing, and continued misinformation about her actions throughout the series.

[Milady of York]

Studying Sansa’s and Bran’s relationship in the novels reveals very interesting parallels in their outlook and development. Both have the distinction of starting out as two of the most idealistic Stark children, with Bran espousing the same kind of innocent passion for knighthood and fondness for the stories of the great heroes of time past.

• We hear all the time that Sansa brings her problems upon herself by being too foolish and naïve; she has her head in the clouds and this blinds her to harsh realities. You might be tempted to believe that no other member of the Stark family held knights in high esteem or believed that they were essentially good and honourable. Obviously this isn’t the case, but there seems to be a gender bias in how Sansa and Bran seem to read in the fandom. Is longing to fall in love with the hero really different from longing to be the hero?
  

I wholly agree with your analysis of the parallels, Brashcandy.

I am one of those who've found Bran interesting from his first POV onwards. In fact, he's the one who helped me understand his sister better and like her, for he's the only one who seems not to judge little Sansa so harshly and even defends her (the famous "she lost her wolf" line), and the only way he could understand her behaviour was because he is equally idealistic, as you rightly say. In a previous thread, it was discussed that a reason Sansa is perceived so negatively was that she´s presented to us through Arya, who has her own issues with her sister. Now that it is true, but there is something that just occurred to me: could it be that the opposite effect is true as well? I mean, if you pay more attention to Bran's POV than Arya’s your impressions about Sansa in the beginning might be different? I say this because it’s what happened to me: given that I liked Bran with his idealism, childish dreams and all, I was more open to accept Sansa as she was. And when Arya‘s POV came along, it had no negative effect on my perception. In other words: a) You pay more attention to/love Arya's chapter = negative impression of Sansa, and B) you pay more attention to/love Bran's POV = positive –or at least tolerant– impression of Sansa.

[Lady Lea]

Just came across this thread in the Winds of Winter subforum, which some of you might be interested in participating in: http://asoiaf.wester...-sansas-rescue/

Look out for some Sansa bashing, and continued misinformation about her actions throughout the series.

:sigh: This is why I don't go to other Sansa threads... "LF's little whore", "brainless pawn", "dumb", "commited conspiracy to kinslay"... ok then

Can I just thank everyone in this thread for being awesome? Round of applause, guys, seriously.

I have a feeling a LOT of readers will be very surprised with Sansa in the next books...

[Kittykatknits]

Someone asked me what I thought of the "A hound will die for you" line in a PM (although I don't think it's a big deal, but I'll still leave out the name out unless she wants to say it). I don't think it is necessarily foreshadowing of Sandor's fate. Partially, this is because I'm rather hesitant to look for foreshadowing other than in hindsight. For example, I don't think Jon and Arya joking about her freezing to death with a needle in her hand has sealed her fate.

I take it as his dedication to her. His way of telling her his feelings. He will give her what he has (his life) and never try to use her like other people (lie to her) and see her for what she is (look in the face).

And while I won't be shocked if he dies (or lives, Sandor could go either way), I don't expect him to die for her. It's a little cliche (even though if he chose too, I expect GRRM would make it good enough to remind us why it is a cliche). It's too reminiscent of a story which is exactly the opposite of Sansa's arc. And Sandor is moving away from fighting both physically (his wound) and spiritually (his time at QI). I don't mean he'll never draw a sword again. But I don't see him being a front line fighter or a murder machine anymore.

As long as not dying for her does not equate to us never seeing Sandor again, I'm fine with that.

I like your interpretation on Sandor's statement to Sansa here, I agree. It's more than just an explanation of his identity, it was a declaration. I compare his statement here to Sansa with how he behaved as Joffrey's sworn shield. We saw a willingness to lie to Joff (more than once) and it's also clear that he wouldn't die for Joff either. After all, he left Joff to his fate during the BBW but tried to save Sansa.

Just came across this thread in the Winds of Winter subforum, which some of you might be interested in participating in: http://asoiaf.wester...-sansas-rescue/

Look out for some Sansa bashing, and continued misinformation about her actions throughout the series.

:sigh: This is why I don't go to other Sansa threads... "LF's little whore", "brainless pawn", "dumb", "commited conspiracy to kinslay"... ok then

Can I just thank everyone in this thread for being awesome? Round of applause, guys, seriously.

I have a feeling a LOT of readers will be very surprised with Sansa in the next books...

I read that through and grew frustrated at the shallow understanding of Sansa's story arc. I didn't have the energy to try responding via cell phone posts. I combine that with another active thread that had people stating they would never forgive Sansa for killing Lady and Ned...

Earlier this week, I had even begun thinking that viewpoints on this board where changed WRT to Sansa as I hadn't seen an overly large number of criticism (usually based on incorrect readings of the text) lately. Foolish summer child that I was.....

[brashcandy]

As long as not dying for her does not equate to us never seeing Sandor again, I'm fine with that.

I like your interpretation on Sandor's statement to Sansa here, I agree. It's more than just an explanation of his identity, it was a declaration. I compare his statement here to Sansa with how he behaved as Joffrey's sworn shield. We saw a willingness to lie to Joff (more than once) and it's also clear that he wouldn't die for Joff either. After all, he left Joff to his fate during the BBW but tried to save Sansa.

I like that a lot Kitty :) A declaration of intent towards her. And supporting what Lord Bronn says that it's a way of expressing his feelings, which are actually a lot more meaningful than the wishy washy chilvalric speech Sansa would have been accustomed to.

I read that through and grew frustrated at the shallow understanding of Sansa's story arc. I didn't have the energy to try responding via cell phone posts. I combine that with another active thread that had people stating they would never forgive Sansa for killing Lady and Ned...

Earlier this week, I had even begun thinking that viewpoints on this board where changed WRT to Sansa as I hadn't seen an overly large number of criticism (usually based on incorrect readings of the text) lately. Foolish summer child that I was.....

Ditto. I had a moment of wondering if I should call out some of their folly and then I just couldn't be bothered, at least not currently.

[Valkyrja]

I like that a lot Kitty :) A declaration of intent towards her. And supporting what Lord Bronn says that it's a way of expressing his feelings, which are actually a lot more meaningful than the wishy washy chilvalric speech Sansa would have been accustomed to.

Ditto. I had a moment of wondering if I should call out some of their folly and then I just couldn't be bothered, at least not currently.

I love that idea about the deeper meaning behind the 'a hound will die for you' line. Many read it as just a generic statement, but forget that he says it to Sansa.

And re: the other threads....aaaaagh. I just read through what I could and ....I just can't with all that. I want to tell everyone to read up on their Pawn to Player, but I fear that it can be too overwhelming/uninteresting/whatever to some, which is fine, I'd rather only interested folks take part in this thread. But, it does become frustrating to see that despite the fact we've done such in-depth analysis of her character and her arc, that there are still so many who have no idea about what we've discussed. I'm not saying this thread is the be all and end all of Sansa discussion, but it seems like a lot of those 'other' discussions are just going around in circles talking about stuff we've already discussed. Too frustrating, so I had to just leave without saying anything. :/

[Milady of York]

I dunno. I really wasn't planning doing his "last words" since Sansa wasn't there. Maybe I'll do it as a bonus part or something.

Please, do it, Lord Bronn. I’m much interested in reading a male perspective with regards to his dying words, and I’m sure many others are, too.

I agree with you re: "a hound will die for you." I do not see it as foreshadowing his death either. My first thought when I read that line was: "Mmm, he's telling her how far he's willing to go for her." It certainly is a declaration of intent. In fact, you could say that is the first time he declares his intentions: he (a hound) is willing to protect her, even if it costs him his life (... will die for you) and no matter how many codes she sees him break, he’ll never break one that results in harm to her (… never lie to you), for if anything he values above all it is honesty, which puts further emphasis on his words: he does not bother to lie whatever the consequences might be, and hates hypocrites, yet he is willing to do it if it protects her. In a way, It could be interpreted as pledging his sword to her, and if you take the BBW scene into the lot, It could also be interpreted as a second declaration of intent: he (a hound) will protect her, never let anyone hurt her and kill anyone who dares to (... "will die for you" in this context illustrates that he'll do anything to keep his promise). Two times he has declared his intentions, and two times he gave her his cloak. Both times, she did accept his cloak. In view of all this careful character development, dying would be both cliché and a waste.

And re: the other threads....aaaaagh. I just read through what I could and ....I just can't with all that. I want to tell everyone to read up on their Pawn to Player, but I fear that it can be too overwhelming/uninteresting/whatever to some, which is fine, I'd rather only interested folks take part in this thread. But, it does become frustrating to see that despite the fact we've done such in-depth analysis of her character and her arc, that there are still so many who have no idea about what we've discussed. I'm not saying this thread is the be all and end all of Sansa discussion, but it seems like a lot of those 'other' discussions are just going around in circles talking about stuff we've already discussed. Too frustrating, so I had to just leave without saying anything. :/

You know something, Valkyrja? If aught I learnt from studying one of History's greatest military commanders* it was that not only picking your fights, but also knowing your oponent and his methods are the keys to victory. You have to know when to respond and when not, and a way to know that you are fighting a futile battle is realising what kind of scenario you are in. In this case, if a thread was started with the title “what can’t you forgive X for…”, the very title reveals it all: it's practically shouting out loud for character bashing, so why bother? You will go in circles, and neither will appeal to anyone. Their arguments are well known, for they are the same and seldom either Improve or get a new angle, while you here are always getting new arguments, constantly discovering new things, constantly in motion, evolving and improving... I know it's frustrating, that you feel your work here in the PtP threads is of little use, but you have to remember that there are a few to whom it matters, a few who are willing to listen and learn, and who are the target readers. A precious few, sure, but those few have done an enormous job. I mean, which character has a devoted following of very smart ladies and some gentlemen investing time and effort in writing thoughtful essays and analysing said character through dozens of threads? Not the popular ones, but the Little Bird, and that's for a reason. So let's keep building our pyramid grain of sand by grain of sand, and as for the bashing, let's embrace the wise words of Rhett Butler: "Frankly, my dear, I do not give a darn." :)

*Alexander the Great (now, his name reminds me of a certain someone whose colours are black and autumn yellow...)

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Analysis of Bran and Rickon

Bran

Idealism and Disillusionment

Studying Sansa’s and Bran’s relationship in the novels reveals very interesting parallels in their outlook and development. Both have the distinction of starting out as two of the most idealistic Stark children, with Bran espousing the same kind of innocent passion for knighthood and fondness for the stories of the great heroes of time past. When Robert comes to Winterfell with his family and extended entourage, Bran is impressed by the golden knight Jaime Lannister, while Sansa believes that she has discovered love with her betrothed Prince Joffrey.

These romanticised visions are soon crushed at the hands of those who were expected to safeguard them. Bran never even gets to leave Winterfell whilst Sansa’s disillusionment gradually grows throughout her experiences in King’s Landing. Had Bran gone to the Southern court as well, we can imagine the impact the reality of the corruption and immorality of the Kingsguard/knighthood would have had on his ideals. He instead experiences it in one brutal act and doesn’t remember how he fell initially. Bran’s broken body symbolises the broken institution of knighthood in Westeros. It is crippled and defunct, and Martin establishes that within the first chapters of the novel. The later killing of Sansa’s wolf Lady extends this theme of broken justice and corrupt morality. A couple things of note here:

• We hear all the time that Sansa brings her problems upon herself by being too foolish and naïve; she has her head in the clouds and this blinds her to harsh realities. You might be tempted to believe that no other member of the Stark family held knights in high esteem or believed that they were essentially good and honourable. Obviously this isn’t the case, but there seems to be a gender bias in how Sansa and Bran seem to read in the fandom. Is longing to fall in love with the hero really different from longing to be the hero?
  
• Had Bran journeyed South as was initially intended, would his disillusionment have been even greater than Sansa's? She is the one to witness after all the deposition of Bran's hero, Barristan the Bold, and suffers beatings from the Kingsguard, the organization Bran holds in high esteem.
  

Once again, we see Sansa and Bran preoccupied more with knighthood and the implicit distinction they believe it conveys, rather than grasping the gravity of the situation unfolding around them and/or appreciating that men who are not knights can be just as admirable and principled. That both of them take a while to give up on their dreams is I think quite realistic. Sansa receives the most criticism for it, but even up to ADWD we see that Bran still feels a sense of loss and sadness over not becoming a knight. Sansa’s and Bran’s arcs are therefore intimately connected by that initial valorising of knighthood and legendary heroes. Both are challenged to work beyond their disenchantments and to find meaning outside of the traditional roles of knight and lady.

Thank you for bringing the similarities between Sansa and Bran to the surface of my brain! I've always compared Sansa to Robb in their taste for southern glamor (Jeyne Westerling was a Southerner, remember) and how disastrous the love of Southern glamor turned out for them. Reading your post, I can see the similarity between Sansa and Bran in their idealistic dreams and both centered around knighthood. The difference is, Bran never got a chance to be disillusioned because he was stuck at Winterfell, recovering from a coma and now he's disabled. Sansa got to see the Southern court up close and personal and wound up disastrously disillusioned.

I think if Bran had got the chance to go to Kings' Landing something similar to Sansa's fate might have ensued. Certainly Bran is capable of making a foolish mistake on the order of Sansa's blabbing to Cersei about Ned's plans. Bran could equally well have gone to Jaime with similar results.

We can conclude that Lannisters are Very Bad News for Starks. Though, I wonder if Bran would have crushed on Princess Myrcella? I don't think this would have had at all the same outcome as Sansa's crush on Joffrey, because Myrcella is a very sweet girl (to all appearances). Cersei might (probably would?) have reacted very badly, though.

Another similarity between Bran and Sansa is that both are their mother's favorites. Catelyn thinks over and over about how Bran is her favorite son and then she tells Jon that she wishes Jon had been injured instead of Bran (not her finest hour, but grieving people can say very cruel or crazy things). And she seemed to have shared a similarly close bond with Sansa - brushing her hair herself, for instance. Interesting that Catelyn's favorite children are the ones that start out very naive and sensitive.

I recall GRRM creating Sansa as someone very different from her siblings - now that I see the similarity as far as idealism and naivete between her and Bran, was Bran supposed to be "different" too - and we don't see it as much because he is so quickly thrown into a coma and out of the center of action until CoK?

]Learning to Fly

It’s interesting that Bran and Sansa are connected with avian imagery, with Sansa being called the little bird by Sandor and Jojen telling Bran that he will be the winged wolf. This yearning to fly and to be free is emphasised by the powerlessness both feel by their respective circumstances. Sansa is held prisoner by the Lannisters, and Bran is a prisoner in his own body. He eventually learns to open his third eye, and to accept his power as warg and greenseer. We’ve seen Sansa gaining greater clarity and perspective as well, learning to not associate beauty with inner goodness.

They also share similar reflections on the godswood, and it becomes a source of comfort and security for both of them during these dark times:

When Sansa moves on to the Vale it’s the lack of a godswood there that she feels most keenly, and this sense of disconnection from her roots contributes to a feeling of loneliness and desolation. Yet, the wind that Sansa hears blowing may very well be a sign from her brother Bran, as Ragnorak intimated in his post upthread, and certainly her thinking of the wind that sounds like a ghost wolf connects directly to her siblings and Stark heritage. Interestingly, when Bran heard the contents of Sansa’s letter, written back in AGOT urging her family not to go to war with the Lannisters, he thinks it’s because Sansa has lost her wolf:

It would be therefore be quite fitting if Bran was indeed the one who sent this “reminder” to Sansa on her way across that narrow mountain ledge in the Eyrie. Given what happened to Lady, perhaps this was a signal to Sansa to remember her wolf, remember her Starkness and to return to the North?

I love this idea that Bran sent a message "across the universe" or "via weirwood.net" to Sansa! He is so closely bonded to Summer that he must feel Sansa's loss of Lady almost for himself ("what if that had happened to Summer?") as for her. Will they, in the future, communicate via weirwood?

Bran seems to be on his way to being a warg and a greenseer. Sansa has not realized her warging abilities as such due to the loss of Lady so early on, but she seems to be developing in the direction of an empath. Will Bran and Sansa be part of "their pack" through a psychic link? Will Sansa always have her brother with her if she can go back to Winterfell and once again be in that godswood with its heart tree? I wonder if Godswoods are so important to Sansa, not just due to her devotion to the Old Gods, but because her empath skills are strengthened through contact with a weirwood tree? Perhaps she will be able to go (psychically) to Winterfell long before she physically goes there. ETA: on second thought, I think the scene in SoS where she builds her snow Winterfell was an instance of her doing just that - although she doesn't properly realize it yet.

Bran's warging abilities: There is a theory that Bran will be one of the three heads of the dragon and will be able to warg into one of Dany's dragons (maybe the green one, Rhaegal?). I would like to see this: first because it would be awesome for Bran - not only flying, but being a dragon! W00t! And second, if the Others swarm over or through the wall or across the downed wall into the North, Bran might be able to warg a dragon, kill or melt or however one destroys the Others, and save the North. Whether Dany would be thrilled at her dragon being borrowed ("hey, Your Grace, can I take Rhaegar out for a spin?") I have no idea.

] Bran’s dream

He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

We've had a lot of discussion on this lately. The common interpretation of the three figures in the dream is that it’s referring to Sandor, Jaime, and Gregor Clegane. Lately, I’ve been rethinking this interpretation based on Tyrion’s thoughts about Littlefinger being the one who truly armours himself in gold. For now, Ungregor still remains the likeliest candidate for the giant in stone armour, however, if Jaime really is the “golden and beautiful” shadow, I’d be willing to consider that Littlefinger could represent the stone giant, due to his family’s sigil, as well as arguably being a central figure responsible for the considerable bloodshed and torment in the kingdoms.

(my emphasis)

The reason I don't see the giant in stone armor as being UnGregor is that he doesn't have as much impact on Sansa and Arya and indeed the Stark family as does Littlefinger. LF is the one who kick-started the whole war and engineered Ned's execution. His ancestral sigil is the titan of Braavos, and recall Arya's thoughts when she first saw the actual Titan is that he could step right over the walls of Winterfell - and LF did just that with Sansa's snow Winterfell. When you think about the kind of sociopath LF is - we see him smiling but his eyes never smile - and how much mayhem and destruction he causes just to achieve his own ends, I can well imagine that beneath the cheerful, sarcastic veneer there is "nothing but darkness and thick black blood." And when the Stark sisters find out the awful truth about LF they are both going to be Very Angry Wolf Girls.

] Rickon

Rickon has both personal and political significance with respect to Sansa’s future. When she is envisioning her marriage to Willas Tyrell, she thinks:

These thoughts highlight the close bond between the Starks, with Sansa planning to honour the memories of her younger brothers and father by giving her children their names. Her last memory of Rickon would have been of a very young child, but his image still remains, and tellingly, she wants these children to grow up hating the Lannisters.

But perhaps it is politically that we will see Rickon helping Sansa the most. She is tired of being treated as a bargaining chip due to her claim to Winterfell, and laments that no one will ever love her for herself. Rickon’s reappearance could lift the burden of the claim from Sansa’s shoulders, and enable her to make a decision based on what she truly desires, and not one informed by duty.

Yes, yes, YES. This is one of the reasons I want to see Davos bring Rickon back alive. It's not only that Sansa will have one more of her family back, and that it will be one step closer to the wolf pack reuniting, it will remove Sansa's claim - a claim that she does not want. Sansa does not WANT to be heiress to the Eyrie or to Winterfell. She wants to be loved for herself and right now is despairing of it. She muses about the difference between being raucously hauled off to her wedding bed by people she loves, and the cold impersonal experience when love is not there. And she wants that love. (ETA: not that I think it wouldn't be awesome from a fannish POV to see Sansa as a queen; and I do believe she is destined for a position of power. But the canon Sansa emphatically does not want to have a claim because that claim has so far brought her nothing but grief and unwanted marriages/proposals.)

Nor do I think she wants to be some kind of Maiden Queen like Elizabeth I. She wants her own family and her own children. Recall that when she fantasized about Joffrey, it was about bearing his lovely golden children. Not about ruling by his side. As I see it, what Sansa wants is a different kind of power - the power to shape her own destiny, the power to be who she wants to be, the power to marry and have a family for love. The power conferred by high rank is often an empty shell - as Cersei bitterly laments, and as Sansa discovers on her own journey.

Rickon's return will not only be reuniting a brother and sister, it will remove a HUGE weight from Sansa's shoulders. (BTW, I wonder if the Manderlys will say to Sansa, "Oh thank the Seven you are here!" - are the Manderlys prepared to have a huge direwolf roaming the halls? Are they up to raising a wild child, which is what Rickon might well be even if a Skagosi family takes him in?They are Stark loyalists to their toes, but there might be some culture clashes in the daughters-only Manderly family! Will Sansa get an earful from the Manderly ladies when she arrives? :D )

I don't think that is a good comparison. She was a child at the time (well, she still is, but maturity has been forced on her. And Ned was right about Joffery. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Sansa killed Ned or anything like that. But I can't fault Ned for being a good parent and trying to stop a mistake. I can't really blame Sansa either for doing the typical teenage rebellion thing. It's nature.

I agree about the teenage rebellion. That is why, while I do think Sansa did a foolish thing, she wasn't responsible for Ned's death as Ned was. Twelve-year-olds do dumb and/or rebellious things all the time. That's why they're not allowed to drive, drink or vote. I wonder if Bran would have done a similar thing if he had gone to KL because he idolized Jaime and wanted to be in the Kingsguard or something?

1. I also think he needed to meet up with Arya. First, she represents one of his lowest points. He murdered a child. He can't bring back Mycah, but he can try to make amends to Arya. Second and most importantly, Arya and Sandor have A LOT in common. She's in many ways, a little Hound herself. I think a good part of the reason he wanted her to be back with the family (besides the obvious reward he expects) is that he did not her to become him.

It was also a relationship he could handle. She hated him. Yet, I have no doubt, that if he wasn't injured and if Lysa was killed before they made it to her, they'd still be together. Because, in the end, she forgave him even if she has yet to consciously do it. Am I making sense? She was hateful enough of him he could accept the human connection easier than he could with Sansa. Though The Hound and Arya's relationship was more pseudo-father/daughter.

Yes, you are making sense, and I agree with you. Making it up to Arya is important, especially if Sandor is going to be a member of the Stark family through marriage or sworn-shield or what have you. And I agree on their relationship - if not pseudo-father/daughter, then uncle/niece or much-older-brother/little sister. Familial, but absolutely none of the sexual tension that exists with Sansa. And that helped him relate to Arya in a way he could probably not relate to Sansa at that time without a backlash or head explosion. Sandor can contain Arya's hate but not Sansa's compassion and ?love.

2. I think it's cynical to believe the story won't have a happy ending. Now, it won't be, "And they lived happily ever after," but there is no reason believe there is only doom and despair for ending. Yeah, lots of bad stuff has happened. But that's the way of it. Bad stuff happens and the heroes overcome.

Oh, I hope so! I'm just influenced maybe too much by people's cynicism about the ultimate fate of the characters. I do want genuine happiness for the Starks, Dany and Jon at least. And children for Sansa. :)

Then again, I tend find Bran a little boring. Not ")(*@)(&)@(@ NOT ANOTHER @)(#$&#$@ IRONBORN CHAPTER!!!!" But still not one I read with intensity.

You and me both on the Ironborn chapters - except for Asha, who got all the brains in that family. If it's any consolation, I predict that Victarion and Euron will become dragon snacks in WoW. "Dracarys" and presto - fewer Ironborn chapters!

I agree also on Bran's chapters starting out a little boring - I chalk it up to his being injured so early, so much of his perspective in GoT was spent in bed/in a coma; and he's so young - his perspective is a little too childish to be interesting, at first. Then in CoK, especially after the Reeds arrive, things get more interesting from Bran's POV.

2. While I'm sure some male/female bias is involved in looking down on Sansa for her dreams, I think timing might be an explanation for some people. Sansa holds onto stories throughout GoT and most of CoK. Bran realizes he'll never be a knight beginning in GoT. So, some might simply be overlooking the parallel.

I agree except I do put a strong emphasis on the anti-female bias in Sansa hate. Some of it seems so personal somehow. But timing doesn't help plus the fact that I surmise a lot of people skim over the Bran chapters more than Sansa's so they do miss the parallel.

3. I prefer the Sandor-Jamie-Littlefinger version. Sandor has played an important part in both Stark girls' lives. Jamie is on a quest to see them both to safety. And Littlefinger is a cause of much of the bloodshed that has effected them both.

Of course, it's possible that one or more may be a character that has not yet met them but will play an important part.

I agree with Sandor/Jaime/LF as per my reasoning above (that LF is more important to the Stark girls than UnGregor, and LF's true self beneath the "brilliant disguise" could be said to consist of darkness and blood. Has anyone but the readers seen it yet? I think it's becoming apparent to Sansa at the end of AFFC, though not to the extent of the whole truth. She knows he's a liar and BS artist and a murderer, but she doesn't know just on what scale yet. And the "murderer" part (of Lysa) has not sunk in yet. Sansa/Alayne is still fixated on Lysa's trying to murder her - an understandable case of PTSD. But I predict the "wait a minute, Petyr murdered Lysa..." bit is going to come to the surface of Sansa's consciousness by the end of WoW.

I know this off topic but my interpretation is:

Hound-face: Sandor (almost certain) or Gregor ONLY IF they are supposed to villains.

Golden: Jamie (golden), Littlefinger (as brash has said), Dornish (possibly a Sandsnake, going by the sun connotation), or possibly Aegon, especially if he is a fake and comes from Dorne

Giant: Littlefinger (his signal) or Tyrion (Giant of Lannister, depends on how far to the darkside he falls): I do not think it is Gregor, I simply don't think he is that important

For the "golden," a Sand Snake (Tyene perhaps?) or even Aegon (who I think IS fake) are very interesting possibilities! So is Tyrion as the giant - and he has loomed large in at least Sansa's life. And if he continues on the darker character arc that he seems to be going down as of ADWD, if he is the "giant" that is going to be very interesting.

Tyrion and LF are much greater possibilities for the giant than UnGregor, IMO, just because they are so much more central to Sansa and Arya's lives.

Thank you :) Yes, I tend to find Bran's chapters dull, but doing this analysis really helped me to get a bit more excited about them. I think a lot of it has to do with him warging Summer all the time, and I just find it a bit boring. Ditto on the Ironborn - those are god awful.

Yes, I agree the analysis has made Bran's chapters more interesting! His youth, the fact that he was stuck in bed during GoT, and his spending so much time warging made him less interesting to start with, though around CoK when the Reeds arrived things started getting going.

As for the ironborn - I like Asha, and I can chortle at Victarion "Imma sail the Dothraki Sea!" - but Aeron bores me to tears. Victarion and Euron, at least, are almost certainly going to be grilled squids pretty soon - "you don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

I prefer this version as well, and I think you're right about Gregor not being important enough. This dream has the giant looming above both of the shadows, and that suggests to me the person has to be a central figure in the narrative and how everything will unfold relating to Sansa and Arya. Plus, Arya was pretty freaked out by the Titan of Braavos on her way into the city, and states that he would be able to step over the walls of Winterfell. This seems to correspond with Sansa's snow castle scene in the Eyrie.

Yes, see above for my thoughts agreeing with you. I think a lot of people are fixated on the giant being a real, physical giant when I think the "giant" is more of a metaphor. LF is certainly a giant as far as influence (and mayhem) are concerned.

BTW, sorry for the delay on the Sweetrobin post. I thought I would have more time this weekend. I am working on it and it should be up this week.

[Raksha the Demon]

I love the Narnia books, but the Susan thing *still* bothered me even in the books.

I also think that Sansa would make a great queen. Unfortunately, I think that though there are many who are friendly towards her, they probably wouldn't support her rule... especially if Bran, Rickon, or a Robb & Jeyne baby show up. In this way she reminds me of another famous fantasy ruler: Galadriel. I haven't read all of the threads yet so I'm not sure if there's been a comparison between the two yet, but I think she has a lot in common with that other famous white lady:

- They are both described as tall and beautiful.

- They are both weirdly observant.

- Though they are observant they are usually merciful in their judgements.

- By the time of Lord of the Rings, Galadriel is arguably the best 'game player' (This could be a direction Sansa heads towards...)

- At the beginnings of their stories they both want to be queens.

- Their initial hopes are dashed by harsh circumstances.

- They both travel from their homelands in search of this rule.

When Galadriel first leaves Valinor she can be seen as naive (somewhat like Sansa)... dreaming of kingdoms that she could rule over. She never actually achieves the title of 'Queen', despite the fact that she probably would have made a better ruler than some of her relatives. She was always the youngest child of the youngest prince. Despite this her influence lasts longer in Middle Earth than any of her relatives: through Arwen her descendants actually rule over mankind into the fourth age.

I'm not sure if a Galadriel/Sansa comparison has been done more eloquently elsewhere (maybe someone could point me to it?), but I think it's worth considering. (Especially since ASoIaF is compared to LOTR so often anyways.)

Edit: Also, they both have a dwarf pining over them at some point. :)

I haven't had much of a chance to post lately, but I thought I'd pop in and respond to this one, since I'm a Tolkien fan.

Much as I like Sansa, I don't see her having much in common with Galadriel. Yes, they're both beautiful and aristocratic from ancient families. And they both are loaded with charm and charisma. But...Galadriel was much more a combination Cersei-Arya-Sansa type; as ambitious as Cersei (without her cruel streak), as physically active and athletic as Arya (Tolkien said somewhere, either in The Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales, that Galadriel used to win athletic contests back in Valinor), and as charming and gracious as Sansa can be. Galadriel never would have settled for, as a goal, to just marry a prince charming and live happily ever after; at least not the Galadriel we know; she seems to have wanted from the beginning to gain knowledge and eventually a kingdom of her own, and acquired a husband and child on the way as a pleasant coincidence rather than purposefully. It is true that we cannot know what Galadriel was like at the age of 12. I doubt very much that she would have been as sheltered and naive as Sansa, simply because her immediate family lived at the center of power as part of an increasingly large and fractious royal family.

Also, at the time of LOTR, Galadriel is not really the best game player in the West; if anyone is, it's Gandalf. Galadriel has set up a rather peculiar, static stronghold in Lorien that is insular and distrustful of other people unless they are connected to Elves and sometimes even then; this is not all her fault (the only Elven faction who seem to live fully in the present are the Mirkwood Elves); but I think Elrond was in a better position to judge what was going on in the world outside their elven havens, since he actually kept Imladris open to certain Men and Dwarves (and hobbits) as a refuge and travel-stop. Galadriel may have the Mirror; but it is not exactly a reliable tool to judge what is going on or will go on in the future.

Sansa reminds me much more of the young Elizabeth Tudor (future Queen Elizabeth I); though I hope Sansa will be able to have a family if/when she regains her Stark self and possibly Winterfell and matures.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Sansa reminds me much more of the young Elizabeth Tudor (future Queen Elizabeth I); though I hope Sansa will be able to have a family if/when she regains her Stark self and possibly Winterfell and matures.

I agree with you about the resemblance between the young Elizabeth I and Sansa. Elizabeth didn't marry partly out of political reasons and partly because her father set, shall we say, a very poor example. Though speaking of Elizabeth, a bird symbol crops up: the pelican, which was a symbol of motherly love and self-sacrifice. The mother pelican allegedly would tear at her own breast to feed her babies if there was no other food, rather than let them starve. Here is the Hilliard Pelican Portrait of Elizabeth: http://www.rmg.co.uk/server/show/conWebDoc.6097

The pelican is not a little songbird, but it is a bird and ties in with the Mother. I hope Sansa won't have to sacrifice her chances at having her own children in order to rule the North, but Elizabeth regarded her people as her children, and if worst came to worst, I hope Sansa would at least have that...

And speaking of feeding people, I was skimming through ADWD and in chapter 17, where Jon is taking inventory of the Night's Watch food storage, he thinks to himself that the Vale "was famously fertile and had gone untouched during the fighting." Unaware that Lysa is dead, he goes on to say that Catelyn's sister was hardly likely to send anything to Eddard Stark's bastard. But now that Lysa's dead, Sansa may well get the chance to send food and supplies to the North. If she distributed food in the name of Lord Rickon Stark, she'd have a lot of people on her side even without all the armies of the Vale.

Now who knows whether the Wall will be standing in the future, or whether Jon will be in a shape to partake of food. But I think Sansa would be willing to send food to her "half-brother" and the Watch because Jon is family. And even if the Wall was no more, there will still be those who need food. This of course depends on how much power she has to act on her own and access the supplies in the Vale.

[brashcandy]

I've been looking over the Quiet Isle chapter and this caught my attention. I doubt it's anything significant, but with GRRM you never know, and I'm perpetually on the hunt for QI/Sandor related crackpot theories ;)

A hundred yards out, Meribald turned abruptly toward the south, so his back was almost to the septry. He proceeded in that direction for another hundred yards leading them between two shallow tidal pools. Dog stuck his nose in one and yelped when a crab pinched it with his claw. A brief but furious struggled ensued before the dog came trotting back, wet and mud-splattered, with the crab between his jaws.

[brashcandy]

Starbird, who used to be active in the Sandor threads, posted some interesting thoughts on Sansa and Ned over on LJ. Her post is inspired by the parallels between Cat's and Sansa's crossing of the narrow mountain ledge in the Eyrie. You'll remember that Cat has to be helped across by Mya, contrasting with the courage shown by Sansa in undertaking the daunting passage with Sweetrobin.

While looking for something unrelated, I came across a passage where Ned is being taken to LF's brothel to find Cat, and realized it was the same path Sansa took when LF stole her out of KL the night of Joffrey's murder. Soooo, she's followed, directly, in the footsteps of both of her parents (who are now dead, or undead). What could this mean?

Here are the relevant passages:

GOT, starting on page 195 (paperback edition):

“You’re going the wrong way, Stark. Come with me.”

Hesitantly, Ned followed. Littlefinger led him into a tower, down a stair, across a small sunken courtyard, and along a deserted corridor where empty suits of armor stood sentinel along the walls. They were relics of the Targaryens, black steel with dragon scales cresting their helms, now dusty and forgotten. “This is not the way to my chambers,” Ned said.

“Did I say it was? I’m leading you to the dungeons to slit your throat and seal your corpse up behind a wall,” Littlefinger replied, his voice dripping with sarcasm. “We have no time for this, Stark. Your wife awaits.”

“What game are you playing, Littlefinger? Catelyn is at Winterfell, hundreds of leagues from here.”

“Oh?” Littlefinger’s grey-green eyes glittered with amusement. “Then it appears someone has managed an astonishing impersonation. For the last time, come. Or don’t come, and I’ll keep her for myself.” He hurried down the steps.

Ned followed him warily, wondering if this day would ever end. He had no taste for these intrigues, but he was beginning to realize that they were meat and mead to a man like Littlefinger.

At the foot of the steps was a heavy door of oak and iron. Petyr Baelish lifted the crossbar and gestured Ned through. They stepped out into the ruddy glow of dusk, on a rocky bluff high above the river. “We’re outside the castle," Ned said.

“You are a hard man to fool, Stark,” Littlefinger said with a smirk. “Was it the sun that gave it away, or the sky? Follow me. There are niches cut in the rock. Try not to fall to your death, Catelyn would never understand.” With that, he was over the side of the cliff, descending as quick as a monkey.

Ned studied the rocky face of the bluff for a moment, then followed more slowly. The niches were there, as Littlefinger had promised, shallow cuts that would be invisible from below, unless you knew just where to look for them. The river was a long, dizzying distance below. Ned kept his face pressed to the rock and tried not to look down any more often than he had to.

When at last he reached the bottom, a narrow, muddy trail along the water’s edge, Littlefinger was lazing against a rock and eating an apple. He was almost down to the core. “You are growing old and slow, Stark,” he said, flipping the apple casually into the rushing water. “No matter, we ride of the rest of the way.” He had two horses waiting. Ned mounted up and trotted behind him, down the trail and into the city.

Finally Baelish drew rein in front of a ramshackle building, three stories, timbered, its windows bright with lamplight in the gathering dusk. The sounds of music and raucous laughter drifted out and floated over the water. Beside the door swung an ornate oil lamp on a heavy chain, with a globe of leaded red glass.

Ned Stark dismounted in a fury. “A brothel,” he said as he seized Littlefinger by the shoulder and spun him around.

[ser Rodrick comes out to say Cat really is inside.]

Ned was lost. “Then how? Why are you here, my love? What is this place?”

“Just as it appears,” Littlefinger said, easing himself onto a window seat. “A brothel. Can you think of a less likely place to find a Catelyn Tully?” He smiled.

[They all discuss the murder attempt on Bran, with the end result being that LF and Ned are aligned in their mission to find the person who hired the assassin.]

SOS, starting on page 835, (paperback edition):

Dontos lurched back to his feet and took her arm. “Come. Be quiet now, no questions.”

They continued down the serpentine and across a small sunken courtyard. Ser Dontos shoved open a heavy door and lit a taper. They were inside a long gallery. Along the walls stood empty suits of armor, dark and dusty, their helms crested with rows of scales that continued down their backs. As they hurried past, the taper’s light made the shadows of each scale stretch and twist. The hollow knights are turning into dragons, she thought.

One more stair took them to an oaken door banded with iron. “Be strong now, my Jonquil, you are almost there.” When Dontos lifted the bar and pulled open the door, Sansa felt a cold breeze on her face. She passed through twelve feet of wall, and then she was outside the castle, standing at the top of the cliff. Below was the river, above the sky, and one was as black as the other.

“We must climb down,” Ser Dontos said. “At the bottom, a man is waiting to row us out to the ship.”

“I’ll fall.” Bran had fallen, and he had loved to climb.

“No you won’t. There’s a sort of ladder, a secret ladder, carved into the stone. Here, you can feel it, my lady.” He got down on his knees with her and made her lean over the edge of the cliff, groping with her fingers until she found the handhold cut into the face of the bluff. “Almost as good as rungs.”

Even so, it was a long way down. “I can’t.”

“You must.”

“Isn’t there another way?”

“This is the way. It won’t be so hard for a strong young girl like you. Hold on tight and never look down and you’ll be at the bottom in no time at all.” His eyes were shiny. “Your poor Florian is fat and old and drunk, I’m the one should be afraid. I used to fall off my horse, don’t you remember? That was how we began. I was drunk and fell off my horse and Joffrey wanted my fool head, but you saved me. You saved me, sweetling.”

He’s weeping, she realized. “And now you have saved me.”

“Only if you go. If not, I have killed us both.”

[sansa thinks SD killed Joffrey, tells him to go first so he doesn’t fall on her.]

Sansa dared not look down. She kept her eyes on the face of the cliff, making certain of each step before reaching for the next. The stone was rough and cold.

[sD and Sansa walk 50 yards to where Oswell Kettleblack is waiting for them with a skiff to take them to a larger ship, on which LF waits.]

“You are old enough to know that your mother and I were more than friends. There was a time when Cat was all I wanted in this world. I dared to dream of the life we might make and the children she would give me . . . but she was a daughter of Riverrun, and Hoster Tully. Family, Duty, Honor, Sansa. Family, Duty, Honor meant I could never have her hand. But she gave me something finer, a gift a woman can give but once. How could I turn my back upon her daughter? In a better world, you might have been mine, not Eddard Stark’s. My loyal loving daughter . . . Put Joffrey from your mind, sweetling. Dontos, Tyrion, all of them. They will never trouble you again. You are safe now, that’s all that matters. You are safe with me, and sailing home.”

So there are some differences and similarities:

* They're both urged to go (“We have no time for this, Stark. Your wife awaits.” / “Come. Be quiet now, no questions.”).

* Ned sees the Targaryen armor as a relic of the past; Sansa sees it as something evolving.

* Ned doesn't put up much of a fight about going over the cliff (although, LF goes first, not leaving him much choice). Sansa asks if there's another way.

* Bran is present in both passages (he's the whole reason Cat made the trip; Sansa thinks of him climbing/falling).

* There are references to Ned and Dontos being old, and both are now dead as a result of LF's treachery (“You are growing old and slow, Stark.” / “Your poor Florian is fat and old and drunk."). Significant? Probably not. Just sayin'.

* I find it interesting that LF is eating an apple. We had a discussion on fruit once during the San/San re-read. I forget the significance of an apple, aside from forbidden fruit. Also, LF's climbing ability, in comparison with Ned and Sansa's, reflects his ease with maneuvering through the court, at which Ned is hopeless, though Sansa is better and becomes even more so.

* Ned and Sansa both climb down the same way ("Ned kept his face pressed to the rock." / "She kept her eyes on the face of the cliff."). Not that there are so many different ways to climb down a cliff-face.

* The fact that they're making a deep descent with/to LF is significant. Ned thinks he's being taken to his chambers, Sansa thinks she's going home; both are places of safety. Obviously, that's not where either ends up.

* LF seems to have a madonna/whore thing going on with Cat. With Ned, she's a madonna (“A brothel. Can you think of a less likely place to find a Catelyn Tully?”). With Sansa, she's a whore ("But she gave me something finer, a gift a woman can give but once."). As we know, Sansa becomes a proxy for Cat. Ned and LF also exchanged some words (unquoted above) about Brandon Stark and his success re: Cat vs LF's failure re: Cat. So LF's words about the unliklihood of finding Cat in a brothel could mean that Cat is both madonna and whore, especially given that he uses her maiden name.

So, I don't know if there's anything to this or not. It just struck me. I'd completely forgotten about Ned's trip down the cliff face, probably because it happened so early in the action.

[Queen of Winter]

I've been looking over the Quiet Isle chapter and this caught my attention. I doubt it's anything significant, but with GRRM you never know, and I'm perpetually on the hunt for QI/Sandor related crackpot theories ;)

A hundred yards out, Meribald turned abruptly toward the south, so his back was almost to the septry. He proceeded in that direction for another hundred yards leading them between two shallow tidal pools. Dog stuck his nose in one and yelped when a crab pinched it with his claw. A brief but furious struggled ensued before the dog came trotting back, wet and mud-splattered, with the crab between his jaws.

Well, crabs are also lunar symbols (associated with water, the subconscious,etc). And as Hermit crabs grow, they have to find a larger shell and leave the old one behind. A symbol of rebirth, perhaps? (It could point to Sandor becoming a "new man", casting off the old "Hound" persona,etc) ;)

Not to mention the Elder Brother's cave with the door is called "The Hermit's Hole". :D

Edit: spelling.

[brashcandy]

And the women's cottages on the east side of the island overlook the Bay of Crabs :) Crackpotting ftw!

[Queen of Winter]

And the women's cottages on the east side of the island overlook the Bay of Crabs :) Crackpotting ftw!

I do love crackpotting with you brash! :laugh: