From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XI

[Caro99]

KRBD:

when someone who has been traumatized and not known real love is offered it, they can push it away (at best) or lash out at the one offering love and even abuse them (at worst). Sandor is the armed and dangerous fighter, but Sansa's love/friendship is far more dangerous to him than he is to her. People from abusive backgrounds, who have not known much love in their lives, feel far too vulnerable to accept the love they are offered later on without much therapy or spiritual work or other work on themselves.

I agree with what you’re saying here, since it was best for him to just walk away and leave her there, instead of either staying or taking her away, only to end up pushing her away or lash out at her and hurt her with his words. After he’s sorted things out though and Sansa has matured enough, it will be good to read Sandor getting some love at long last!

She may have been a little bit of the odd one out among the Stark siblings (however, in a way, I see her as being like Robb to a degree if only because Robb seemed to have that romantic attraction toward southerners that embodied conventional gender and chivalry ideals)

So I was going to say that this could be cause they were close to Cat who took some time adjusting to the north. Maybe by the time she had Arya she really liked the northern culture and wasn’t telling her kids how wonderful the south is..? But then I read Brash’s analysis on Sansa & Bran, and I remembered Bran was also in love with the idea of being in the kingsguard, so….

Brash, what a good lovely post!

Both are challenged to work beyond their disenchantments and to find meaning outside of the traditional roles of knight and lady.

They started out, one could claima, as the most immature of the Stark siblings, so it will be a nice ironic twist if by the end they are the more mature…

Great catch on this:

Interestingly, when Bran heard the contents of Sansa’s letter, written back in AGOT urging her family not to go to war with the Lannisters, he thinks it’s because Sansa has lost her wolf:

Rickon:

perhaps it is politically that we will see Rickon helping Sansa the most. She is tired of being treated as a bargaining chip due to her claim to Winterfell, and laments that no one will ever love her for herself. Rickon’s reappearance could lift the burden of the claim from Sansa’s shoulders, and enable her to make a decision based on what she truly desires, and not one informed by duty.

I agree and it would be nice that Rickon ends up marrying whom he wants cause his regent, understanding what it’s like to be married off by one’s claim, didn’t see this as a bad thing. Maybe Sansa will help Rickon in not committing the same mistake Robb did with deciding whom he married and what promises he would be breaking…

Overall, Bran and Rickon have important roles to play in determining the outcome of Sansa’s future. All of the Stark children are essentially “ghost wolves” but Jojen’s prediction of that the wolves will come again heralds a return to power and a reconnection of the pack.

It would be nice to see a future with the stark kids are together, since we didn’t have much time to see them at Winterfell except for the first few chapters and the memories they cherish..

Lord Bronn: I think it’s true Sandor may have wanted to spare Arya the sort of fate that happened with him, so…I agree too that she would have stayed with him even though she didn’t consciously realized she’d forgiven him (the stark girls sure have to realize a lot of things concerning Sandor and stop thinking about them in unconsciously. & that bit with Sandor knowing how to handle Arya cause it was a i-hate-you! Relationship is true- sad but true. That’s one of the reasons Sansa beguiled him so much…

Brash, your respond to LB:

The thing is, even though Bran is injured and knows that he'll never walk again, his love for knights and desire to be one is still at the forefront of a lot of thoughts throughout AGOT and ACOK. It's only when he finally makes the decision to seek out the three-eyed crow that he begins it seems to accept the inevitable.

This reminded me of Sansa a lot! One can change some of the words and it fits Sansa too:

Even though Sansa has been romantically disillusioned several times and knows that a lot of marriages don’t work out, her refusal of not giving up on love (since she still cares about being loved by herself) is still at the forefront of a lot of her thoughts…

[childofsummer]

I'm torn between liking the connections between Bran and Sansa, and desperately hoping that Bran's presumed assumption of treehood doesn't doom Sansa to a symbolically immobile and ineffective state. After all, Bloodraven doesn't seem like he gets much joy out of life with branches growing through his head, and it seems really depressing for a young boy to see living for an unnaturally extended period in that state, no matter how many trees he gets to glimpse the world through, as his only option. I hope Sansa doesn't mimic that fate, whether that's by remaining in hiding as Alayne in a symbolic prison or by staying married or marrying someone else who keeps her shut up in a tower, unable to reach her potential/dream as a beloved leader.

I don't think she will, because Bran, while idealistic like Sansa, doesn't seem to get similar foreshadowing. His talents (climbing, warging, and later second sight) are presented in the present or past, or as a mystery, without a lot of authorial comment as to their potential future uses. In contrast, Sansa's story is loaded with comments and hints, both overt and situational, about her skills and their potential uses to a queen.

I, too, would love to see a Stark reunion, where Bran is able to convince his siblings that the crow/wolf/tree he is inhabiting is really him, and Jon gets to muss Arya's hair, and Sansa gets to tell Jon how much she missed him, and they can all teach Rickon how to live in civilization again, and... *sniffle* :crying:

[brashcandy]

I don't think she will, because Bran, while idealistic like Sansa, doesn't seem to get similar foreshadowing. His talents (climbing, warging, and later second sight) are presented in the present or past, or as a mystery, without a lot of authorial comment as to their potential future uses. In contrast, Sansa's story is loaded with comments and hints, both overt and situational, about her skills and their potential uses to a queen.

Yes, I agree. Sansa's arc has always been a lot more dynamic than Bran's in the sense of engaging with the outside world as herself and her talents being in opposition to the corrupt environment she negotiates with in King's Landing and elsewhere. I don't know if Bran will stay in Bloodraven's cave forever - I tend to think not - but his strengths as a greenseer definitely position him as the kind of god like figure of the Stark family, seeing into their past and present, and potentially having some influence on the future.

[Valkyrja]

Yes, I agree. Sansa's arc has always been a lot more dynamic than Bran's in the sense of engaging with the outside world as herself and her talents being in opposition to the corrupt environment she negotiates with in King's Landing and elsewhere. I don't know if Bran will stay in Bloodraven's cave forever - I tend to think not - but his strengths as a greenseer definitely position him as the kind of god like figure of the Stark family, seeing into their past and present, and potentially having some influence on the future.

I agree, brash. I am hoping that this 'Bran becoming a tree' storyline is just as much of a red herring as (I hope) Sansa marrying Harry the Heir/forever being a pawn of Littlefinger will be. Just as I find it hard to believe that Arya will stay forever in the House of Black and White and that Rickon will never return from Skagos. It just seems strange that GRRM would reveal the 'ultimate' fates of the main Stark characters so soon before the actual end of the series. That's not to say that Bran and Sansa won't have to respectively deal with these various factors pulling them in certain directions (and with all the moral ambiguity therein), but I just find it hard to believe that such 'doomed' fates would have been telegraphed this early on. :dunno:

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I think Bran will become a tree, but I don't think it's doom. He is basically ascending to a higher plane of existence. I consider the location of his body to be a minor thing in that regard.

[Valkyrja]

I think Bran will become a tree, but I don't think it's doom. He is basically ascending to a higher plane of existence. I consider the location of his body to be a minor thing in that regard.

I'm not saying is a horrible tragedy, I guess I just would rather he be able to 'live a little' before becoming a tree. At least Bloodraven lived a good portion of his life before becoming the Three Eyed Crow. I dunno, just seems rather sad to me, really. :(

[tze]

It’s interesting that Bran and Sansa are connected with avian imagery, with Sansa being called the little bird by Sandor and Jojen telling Bran that he will be the winged wolf.

I think Sansa's also the only Stark other than Bran who has literally been associated with "the winged wolf":

We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window.

The prison imagery you bring up also dovetails really nicely between the two arcs, because Bran is a prisoner in his own body, just as "Sansa" is a prisoner in "Alayne's" body. Bran goes from imprisonment in Winterfell to "imprisonment" in Bloodraven's cave, while Sansa goes from imprisonment in the Red Keep to "imprisonment" in the Vale.

Bran was pushed off a tower by Jaime Lannister, whose gilded armor appears like gold. Sansa is saved by Littlefinger from being pushed out of the Moon Door, and Littlefinger of course is "armored in gold". The Three-Eyed Crow wants Bran to fly, and we even see Bran warging a raven in ADWD. Lysa wants to "make Sansa fly", but Sansa does not yet "fly"---either literally (via skinchanging) or by falling out of the Moon Door to her death; this parallel works to symbolize, perhaps, Sansa's less-matured skinchanging abilities, vis a vis Bran.

We also see both Bran and Sansa heavily associated with doors made of weirwood: for Sansa, the Moon Door, and for Bran, the Black Gate. One is positioned in the sky, the other deep in the earth. Bran passes through the Black Gate, but Sansa does not pass through the Moon Door. In a general sense, Sansa seems to be on a similar magical "path" as Bran, but keeps being "thwarted": he falls, she is saved, he passes through a weirwood door, she does not. In another sense, the fact that Bran passes through the Gate in the earth, but Sansa does not pass through the Door in the sky, could indicate that Sansa will not be associated with the sky, but might, like Bran, be tied to the earth.

[Queen of Winter]

I think Sansa's also the only Stark other than Bran who has literally been associated with "the winged wolf":

The prison imagery you bring up also dovetails really nicely between the two arcs, because Bran is a prisoner in his own body, just as "Sansa" is a prisoner in "Alayne's" body. Bran goes from imprisonment in Winterfell to "imprisonment" in Bloodraven's cave, while Sansa goes from imprisonment in the Red Keep to "imprisonment" in the Vale.

Bran was pushed off a tower by Jaime Lannister, whose gilded armor appears like gold. Sansa is saved by Littlefinger from being pushed out of the Moon Door, and Littlefinger of course is "armored in gold". The Three-Eyed Crow wants Bran to fly, and we even see Bran warging a raven in ADWD. Lysa wants to "make Sansa fly", but Sansa does not yet "fly"---either literally (via skinchanging) or by falling out of the Moon Door to her death; this parallel works to symbolize, perhaps, Sansa's less-matured skinchanging abilities, vis a vis Bran.

We also see both Bran and Sansa heavily associated with doors made of weirwood: for Sansa, the Moon Door, and for Bran, the Black Gate. One is positioned in the sky, the other deep in the earth. Bran passes through the Black Gate, but Sansa does not pass through the Moon Door. In a general sense, Sansa seems to be on a similar magical "path" as Bran, but keeps being "thwarted": he falls, she is saved, he passes through a weirwood door, she does not. In another sense, the fact that Bran passes through the Gate in the earth, but Sansa does not pass through the Door in the sky, could indicate that Sansa will not be associated with the sky, but might, like Bran, be tied to the earth.

Since the moon is a symbol of the subconscious, could it also be looked upon that Sansa is not yet ready to "fly" (i.e. something is holding her back).

[Kittykatknits]

I'm about half way done with my write-up on Jaime but I doubt it will be finished until next week. My laptop keyboard met with a sudden and brutal death last night, all rescue attempts were met with complete and utter failure. So, my ability to type or edit anything is going to be rather limited until a replacement part comes in. :(

But, I'll get moving on it again as soon as my laptop is fixed.....

[Liar]

I'm about half way done with my write-up on Jaime but I doubt it will be finished until next week. My laptop keyboard met with a sudden and brutal death last night, all rescue attempts were met with complete and utter failure. So, my ability to type or edit anything is going to be rather limited until a replacement part comes in. :(

But, I'll get moving on it again as soon as my laptop is fixed.....

Will it be an analysis on Jaime? can't wait to read it.

[Kittykatknits]

Will it be an analysis on Jaime? can't wait to read it.

Yes, it will be similar to what you have seen with others. A mix of parallels, theories, and some foreshadowing.

[Liar]

Yes, it will be similar to what you have seen with others. A mix of parallels, theories, and some foreshadowing.

Great! I'm mad with myself for arriving late to this thread.

[Pod The Impaler]

Analysis of Bran and Rickon

One thing I thought a Bran and Rickon analysis, one thing you might want to issue an addendum for regarding Sansa and Bran / Rickon:

She was also a secondary mother for them, you can be certain. Catelyn had Old Nan and Septa Mordane around as well, and seems to have been a fairly hands-on mother for a highborn woman, but I am certain that Sansa, being the elder sister, had a hand in taking care of all the younger ones (Arya, Bran, Rickon). Sansa's example and teacher was Catelyn of course, but where her skill really has to be used is later when she has to take care of Sweetrobin.

What do you think ? Bran and Rickon as practice runs for her own future surrogate mothering with Sweetrobin ? Also, as her expectation of what little boys are supposed to be like ?

[brashcandy]

What do you think ? Bran and Rickon as practice runs for her own future surrogate mothering with Sweetrobin ? Also, as her expectation of what little boys are supposed to be like ?

Yeah, good point. I put more focus on her mothering SR preparing her for taking over care of Rickon if/when he returns to Winterfell and the theory that Sansa could potentially take over as his regent. This might be stretching it, but looking at SR he's kinda a mix between Bran and Rickon; he has the same knightly aspirations Bran did, along with a bit of Rickon's wildness. Anyways, I do agree that Sansa's experience with her little brothers may be influencing her sympathy towards the child, and it could be a prime motivating factor in saving him from LF's plot.

[brashcandy]

Great! I'm mad with myself for arriving late to this thread.

Better late than never ;) Welcome.

[childofsummer]

@ Pod: Love your avatar. Wile E. Coyote is fabulous! Now, to relate my totally off-topic comment to the Sansa thread... er... Sansa perseveres, just like Wile does! Neither of them ever really gives up, no matter how many anvils get dropped on their heads. :P

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Someone asked me what I thought of the "A hound will die for you" line in a PM (although I don't think it's a big deal, but I'll still leave out the name out unless she wants to say it). I don't think it is necessarily foreshadowing of Sandor's fate. Partially, this is because I'm rather hesitant to look for foreshadowing other than in hindsight. For example, I don't think Jon and Arya joking about her freezing to death with a needle in her hand has sealed her fate.

I take it as his dedication to her. His way of telling her his feelings. He will give her what he has (his life) and never try to use her like other people (lie to her) and see her for what she is (look in the face).

And while I won't be shocked if he dies (or lives, Sandor could go either way), I don't expect him to die for her. It's a little cliche (even though if he chose too, I expect GRRM would make it good enough to remind us why it is a cliche). It's too reminiscent of a story which is exactly the opposite of Sansa's arc. And Sandor is moving away from fighting both physically (his wound) and spiritually (his time at QI). I don't mean he'll never draw a sword again. But I don't see him being a front line fighter or a murder machine anymore.

[Lady Lea]

Someone asked me what I thought of the "A hound will die for you" line in a PM (although I don't think it's a big deal, but I'll still leave out the name out unless she wants to say it). I don't think it is necessarily foreshadowing of Sandor's fate. Partially, this is because I'm rather hesitant to look for foreshadowing other than in hindsight. For example, I don't think Jon and Arya joking about her freezing to death with a needle in her hand has sealed her fate.

I take it as his dedication to her. His way of telling her his feelings. He will give her what he has (his life) and never try to use her like other people (lie to her) and see her for what she is (look in the face).

And while I won't be shocked if he dies (or lives, Sandor could go either way), I don't expect him to die for her. It's a little cliche (even though if he chose too, I expect GRRM would make it good enough to remind us why it is a cliche). It's too reminiscent of a story which is exactly the opposite of Sansa's arc. And Sandor is moving away from fighting both physically (his wound) and spiritually (his time at QI). I don't mean he'll never draw a sword again. But I don't see him being a front line fighter or a murder machine anymore.

Ah, lovely words. :)

I can't tell y'all how gutted I'd be if he died for her. Also if Arya froze to death. Please GRRM... don't take them away...

[Valkyrja]

They've already both 'fake died'.....here's to hoping that's that. Then again, sometimes a clean death is better than the tortures GRRM seems to have in store for many of his characters. :/

[Lady Lea]

They've already both 'fake died'.....here's to hoping that's that. Then again, sometimes a clean death is better than the tortures GRRM seems to have in store for many of his characters. :/

well he has suffered enough imo :/

I wanted to claw out Dondarrion's eyes when he set his stupid sword on fire

fucking zombie

i have a lot of feelings ok