From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XI

[Lady Lea]

<arranged marriages post>

If I may, there was a recent GRRM interview where he said that Tywin married Joanna in great part because he wanted to "keep the bloodline pure" but that it could also have had a little to do with love. It was definitely an arranged marriage, though. I think they were probably fond of each other at first, married because of other interests, and then ~love grew~.

ETA: QC1, thanks for the post about the "girl stuff" quote. MTE!!

Now imagine if the PtP had a podcast, how cool that would be ;)

[Kittykatknits]

She's not thinking about more than getting through the day in the sense of thinking about what she wants in general, though. She won't even allow herself to dream about what she wants, which is sad. The minute she starts thinking about the Hound, she slams down on the thought, thinking that Sansa was done, etc. etc. When she thinks for just a second that it would be "so sweet" to see Jon Snow again, she instantly harshly reminds herself that "Alayne" has no brothers, and that's the end of that. If she can't even allow herself to daydream for anything longer than a moment about a remembered kiss or about her much-missed half-brother (cousin?), how can she possibly get to the point of thinking about how she would live her life if she got to decide how she wanted to live her life?

Overall, Sansa seems very resigned in her last chapter in AFFC. She's resigned to living as a bastard, she's resigned to the idea that she may never reclaim her former life, she's resigned to caring for Sweetrobin (as distasteful as she finds it, and him), she's resigned to whatever Littlefinger does to her or has in mind for her, she's resigned, she's resigned, she's resigned. Her little intrigues with Lothor/Mya and her byplay with the hedge knights seem like amusements on the level of a prisoner condemned for life etching drawings on his prison walls. GRRM deliberately cut off the chapter so we don't get to see how Sansa reacts to Littlefinger's complete marriage scheme, but I don't see anything in AFFC that suggests her conduct will be anything other than glum acceptance of whatever it is he decides. If the marriage doesn't go through, it won't be because of her reluctance; I expect she'll talk herself into it as she did the Willas Tyrell marriage, just as she talks herself into every other thing Littlefinger has foisted on her.

Sansa is focusing on her current identity of Alayne Stark, that's not the same thing as giving up on what she wants. I would also add that your interpretation of Sansa as being resigned towards her fate and LF is both inaccurate and a disservice to her character arc. The word resigned is not what I would use to describe Sansa at any point in the series. She's fought back with whatever tools she has had available even when the only tool is inner rebellion. If Sansa was resigned to her fate, she would not have plotted with Dontos, refused to do more than cold courtesy with Tyrion, lied to LF, planned to refuse the engagement to Ser Sweetrobin, or built WF in the snow. Sansa is exploring life as Alayne and learning what it is to be "bastard brave". That's not the same thing as resignation.

As to her marriage with HtH, stating that she will talk herself in to would mean completely ignoring her thoughts and actions as well as her character arc again. Sansa has repeatedly shown us that she is seeking control in her life and agency.

The sad thing is that her reflexive protest "I am married, you know" was a callback to a marriage to which her objections proved fruitless. If her tone is more measured and careful this time, it's because she's much more beaten down and humbled at the end of AFFC than she was at that point in ASOS.

Sansa hated being married to Tyrion. She made a point of never removing her courtesy armor with him, even though he had instructed her to do so. After escaping KL, she even thinks that he is another Lannister liar. Sansa has learned to keep her inner self and thoughts from everyone. Based upon interpretations such as yours, she also does a good job of keeping them from the reader at times. However, Sansa is giving out something she hated and a time when she was absolutely miserable as an excuse here. The fact that she was willing to use it as an immediate argument speaks volumes. There is nothing in her statement here to show that she is either beaten down or humbled. Again, it is also contrary to every single thought she has had when it comes to marriage, sex, and love in the entire book.

She actually does give in to hateful, vengeful feelings at several points in the book (listed in my post) and she does take pleasure in the suffering of people of who've wronged her, which is schadenfreude. To me, that includes her feelings at Joffrey's death. It may be bitter satisfaction, but it's still satisfaction.

I agree with brashcandy here. There is nothing to support that Sansa take joy or pleasure in the suffering of others. Look at other examples of the text such as her reaction to Tyrion's being framed for regicide. She hated being married to him and wanted out of the marriage. Yet, she also took no pleasure in hearing that he would be killed. She was afraid of Cersei yet isn't wishing for her death. At no point does Sansa reflect on Joffrey's death or rememeber any feeling of satisfaction from it. Sansa is not about vengeance.

[Newstar]

Sansa is focusing on her current identity of Alayne Stark, that's not the same thing as giving up on what she wants.

It isn't, I agree, but she has given up on what she wants. If something occurs to her that she might want that isn't immediately available to her, she just sort of mentally flicks it away, and she does this twice in her last AFFC chapter that we've seen ("the day is done" and "Alayne had no brothers"). She seems to have given up on wanting anything beyond what she can obtain as a bastard, and she isn't even thinking in broad terms about what she might want as a bastard or otherwise, probably since she knows she isn't going to get it.

I would also add that your interpretation of Sansa as being resigned towards her fate and LF is both inaccurate and a disservice to her character arc. The word resigned is not what I would use to describe Sansa at any point in the series. She's fought back with whatever tools she has had available even when the only tool is inner rebellion. If Sansa was resigned to her fate, she would not have plotted with Dontos, refused to do more than cold courtesy with Tyrion, lied to LF, planned to refuse the engagement to Ser Sweetrobin, or built WF in the snow.

Absolutely, in the past she was a fighter, but she's resigned now, which is what makes it so sad for me. All the fight's gone out of her after Lysa's death, as far as I can tell. Rejecting the marriage to Sweetrobin and Littlefinger's advances was the last gasp of Sansa's rebellion, and Lysa's attack and violent demise killed that part of Sansa, I think: the part of her that defied Ned in AGOT, the part of her that went along with the escape plan, the part of her that rejected her marriage to Tyrion. These days, she wants to survive, for sure, but anything beyond that--girl talk, a new gown, etc.--is a freebie, and she's willing to endure whatever she needs to rather than reject whatever she's given. It wasn't always true, for sure--her adherence to the escape plan is testament to that--but it is now. She may have been a fighter before, but I see nothing except resignation and acceptance as of the end of AFFC, and I don't expect that to change.

Sansa is exploring life as Alayne and learning what it is to be "bastard brave". That's not the same thing as resignation.

Bastard brave. Bastard brave. As I said, she is resigned to life as a bastard and there's no indication in her last chapter that she ever expects to resume her former life as Sansa Stark; she also seems to be okay with this, a huge reversal from her horror in ASOS at being passed off as a bastard. That's what I mean by Sansa being beaten down and humbled. She is indifferent to something which once horrified her: not out of any enlightenment or wisdom about bastard life not being so bad, but because she's resigned to her fate and knows not to hope for anything other than what she's been given.

Also, when she calls upon her "bastard bravery," it's not for fighting her fate, rebelling or rejecting her identity as Alayne Stone; it's to help her endure something horrible and terrifying (crossing the pass). There's a difference between the bravery to fight for your goals and for autonomy, and the bravery to endure something that you would never be able to otherwise tolerate. Sansa seems to be building the latter type of bravery (just as she told herself "I can be brave" before going through with the awful wedding to Tyrion). That seems significant. Sansa's still a survivor, but I don't think she's a fighter anymore.

As to her marriage with HtH, stating that she will talk herself in to would mean completely ignoring her thoughts and actions as well as her character arc again. Sansa has repeatedly shown us that she is seeking control in her life and agency.

She talked herself into framing Marillion. She talked herself into cooperating with Littlefinger rather than seeking another protector. She might wish for control and agency, if she paused to think about what she wanted in life (which she doesn't seem to be doing these days), but she doesn't, because she knows better by now to think about things she can't have except to recognize them as unattainable and dismiss them. She may have sought control in her life and agency in the past, but as of the end of AFFC--and I agree she wasn't always like this--she seems to know better on some level.

There is nothing in her statement here to show that she is either beaten down or humbled. Again, it is also contrary to every single thought she has had when it comes to marriage, sex, and love in the entire book.

She is beaten down and humbled, because she doesn't say "No!" or "I don't want to be married, not now and not ever, NEVER again!" She says "I am married, you know," which sounds far less to me like a "Hell, no!" and more like a "There's a problem with your idea" or even "Hey, I'm all for it, but there's just a tiny wrinkle in this scheme." She doesn't say she objects to the idea; she doesn't imply she objects to the idea. All she does is pose a problem, one Littlefinger is happy to solve for her. She is beaten down to the point where she can't even articulate anything except "There is a problem with your plan," which is halfhearted to me and suggests that she knows on some level that she has no choice but to raise objections for Littlefinger to poke holes in them, one by one. She sounds truly defeated here, since despite her inward emotions about marriage, all she can say is "I am married, you know" and wait for Littlefinger to plow forward with his great scheme and molest her some more.

[brashcandy]

Overall, Sansa seems very resigned in her last chapter in AFFC. She's resigned to living as a bastard, she's resigned to the idea that she may never reclaim her former life, she's resigned to caring for Sweetrobin (as distasteful as she finds it, and him), she's resigned to whatever Littlefinger does to her or has in mind for her, she's resigned, she's resigned, she's resigned. Her little intrigues with Lothor/Mya and her byplay with the hedge knights seem like amusements on the level of a prisoner condemned for life etching drawings on his prison walls. GRRM deliberately cut off the chapter so we don't get to see how Sansa reacts to Littlefinger's complete marriage scheme, but I don't see anything in AFFC that suggests her conduct will be anything other than glum acceptance of whatever it is he decides. If the marriage doesn't go through, it won't be because of her reluctance; I expect she'll talk herself into it as she did the Willas Tyrell marriage, just as she talks herself into every other thing Littlefinger has foisted on her.

I don't know where you're getting these opinions from, but I find them extremely distasteful. At no point in her arc, not even during her darkest times in KL, has Sansa ever been reduced to a prisoner making etchings on a wall. Kittykatknits has already spoken to this, but in ASOS the resignation we saw from Sansa was to go to Lysa and tell her she didn't want to marry Sweetrobin. In AFFC, we saw her resignation to feed LF lies and arbor gold. She makes a pragmatic sensible decision not to trust the Lords Declarant to protect her against LF, and she's now resolved to explore her bastard identity. and ensure her survival.

More broadly, there's also the ongoing theme in the story of romantic love being linked to disaster. So I can't see women following their hearts and flipping the bird to arranged marriages in favour of true love being viewed as a Good Thing, as the main women in this story who "followed their hearts" and rejected duty in favour of romantic love caused nothing but chaos, war, disaster, and despair (Lyanna, Cersei, Lysa, Sansa when she rejected her father's orders in favour of salvaging her relationship with Joffrey, etc.).

Whether you're dealing with an arranged marriage or a romantic love affair, compatibility, common sense and compassion have to prevail. A couple that believes when they get married everything will be sunshine and roses isn't much better off than a couple who don't have a say in their marriage and aren't able to come together and find common ground. However, wanting to be married for love doesn't equate to not being prepared to face the challenges of marriage and raising a family. I think Martin has critiqued arranged marriages which sacrifice a woman's happiness in the service of some political or socially correct objective. Making this even worse is when you put two people together who had no business even carrying on a conversation with one another. If a woman or man feels victimised in their relationship, chances are they will not be happy, and that's what we see happening in the textual examples. Sansa's feelings for Joffrey are not a good example to make when talking about romantic love because at this point she's still quite naive and inexperienced and terribly misinformed about Joff's true nature. Lysa was manipulated by Littlefinger and we still have no clear idea of what took place between Rhaegar and Lyanna, but again, misunderstanding could have played a prominent role.

[Kittykatknits]

It isn't, I agree, but she has given up on what she wants. If something occurs to her that she might want that isn't immediately available to her, she just sort of mentally flicks it away, and she does this twice in her last AFFC chapter that we've seen ("the day is done" and "Alayne had no brothers"). She seems to have given up on wanting anything beyond what she can obtain as a bastard, and she isn't even thinking in broad terms about what she might want as a bastard or otherwise, probably since she knows she isn't going to get it.

Absolutely, in the past she was a fighter, but she's resigned now, which is what makes it so sad for me. All the fight's gone out of her after Lysa's death, as far as I can tell. Rejecting the marriage to Sweetrobin and Littlefinger's advances was the last gasp of Sansa's rebellion, and Lysa's attack and violent demise killed that part of Sansa, I think. These days, she wants to survive, for sure, but anything beyond that--girl talk, a new gown, etc.--is a freebie, and she's willing to endure whatever she needs to rather than reject whatever she's given. It wasn't always true, for sure--her adherence to the escape plan is testament to that--but it is now. She may have been a fighter before, but I see nothing except resignation and acceptance as of the end of AFFC, and I don't expect that to change.

Bastard brave. Bastard brave. As I said, she is resigned to life as a bastard and there's no indication in her last chapter that she ever expects to resume her former life as Sansa Stark.

Also, when she calls upon her "bastard bravery," it's not for fighting her fate, rebelling or rejecting her identity as Alayne Stone; it's to help her endure something horrible and terrifying (crossing the pass). There's a difference between the bravery to fight your fate and fight for your desires, and the bravery to endure something that you would never be able to otherwise tolerate. Sansa seems to be building the latter type of bravery. That seems significant. Sansa's still a survivor, but I don't think she's a fighter anymore.

She talked herself into framing Marillion. She talked herself into cooperating with Littlefinger rather than seeking another protector. She might wish for control and agency, if she paused to think about what she wanted in life (which she doesn't seem to be doing these days), but she doesn't, because she knows better by now to think about things she can't have except to recognize them as unattainable and dismiss them. She may have sought control in her life and agency in the past, but as of the end of AFFC--and I agree she wasn't always like this--she seems to know better on some level.

She is beaten down and humbled, because she doesn't say "No!" or "I don't want to be married, not now and not ever, NEVER again!" She says "I am married, you know," which sounds far less to me like a "Hell, no!" and more like a "There's a problem with your idea" or even "Hey, I'm all for it, but there's just a tiny wrinkle in this scheme." She doesn't say she objects to the idea; she doesn't imply she objects to the idea. All she does is pose a problem, one Littlefinger is happy to solve for her. She is beaten down to the point where she can't even articulate anything except "There is a problem with your plan," which is halfhearted to me and suggests that she knows on some level that she has no choice but to raise objections for Littlefinger to poke holes in them, one by one. She sounds truly defeated here, since despite her inward emotions about marriage, all she can say is "I am married, you know" and wait for Littlefinger to plow forward with his great scheme and molest her some more.

Quite frankly, you seem resigned to the idea that Sansa is a beaten down and humbled person, that she now exists to take whatever abuse she receives and is willing to submit to whatever others do to her. It's completely contrary to her inner thoughts, her entire story arc since GOT, and all the foreshadowing around her character. The fact that you expect her to express her dissatisfaction in a particular way just tells me that you are misreading her character. Sansa is extremely internal and has built up her courtesy armor. She is very deliberate and careful with every word she says and what she shows on her face. She is no different her with LF. She does not trust him and is being very careful with what she is saying . That does not equate to being beaten down and humbled.

I would also add that your portrayal of Sansa as nothing but an abuse victim who has given up adds nothing to the conversation and does not further our understanding of her character development. Rather, it is reducing her to a single-dimensional character who exists for no other purpose than to receive pity from the readers and be used by other characters. It's a gross simplification and distasteful to read.

[tze]

Absolutely, in the past she was a fighter, but she's resigned now, which is what makes it so sad for me. All the fight's gone out of her after Lysa's death, as far as I can tell. Rejecting the marriage to Sweetrobin and Littlefinger's advances was the last gasp of Sansa's rebellion, and Lysa's attack and violent demise killed that part of Sansa, I think. These days, she wants to survive, for sure, but anything beyond that--girl talk, a new gown, etc.--is a freebie, and she's willing to endure whatever she needs to rather than reject whatever she's given. It wasn't always true, for sure--her adherence to the escape plan is testament to that--but it is now. She may have been a fighter before, but I see nothing except resignation and acceptance as of the end of AFFC, and I don't expect that to change.

I think this is extremely premature. Sansa's last chapter in AFFC showed Littlefinger announcing his plans to marry her to Harry the Heir, declare her identity publicly as Sansa Stark . . . and then the chapter cut off before we got Sansa's reaction to Littlefinger's plan. I doubt that's a coincidence. Sansa's first chapter in TWOW could easily begin with her taking steps to interfere with/destroy Littlefinger's plans, and that would jive perfectly with the progression of her plot arc thus far.

And ever since her escape, Sansa has had to contend with two harsh realities: 1) she has no access to any resources of her own, and 2) she can't trust anyone. She spent AFFC isolated in the Eyrie, having recently witnessed the murder of her aunt (the only family member who still held any political power), the same aunt who had tried to murder her. Her paranoia is, rather justifiably, off the charts, and even if she'd wanted to clash with Littlefinger, he held all of the cards there---a word from him and she'd have been shipped to King's Landing in chains, and it's not like escaping from the Eyrie of her own volition was at all possible. Her situation in TWOW will necessarily be different, because there are opportunities and people present at the Gates of the Moon that weren't present in the Eyrie.

Bastard brave. Bastard brave. As I said, she is resigned to life as a bastard and there's no indication in her last chapter that she ever expects to resume her former life as Sansa Stark.

She thinks about being "bastard brave" in the same chapter in which she learns that her bastard brother has just gained a position of power at the Wall. I doubt that's a coincidence.

She talked herself into framing Marillion. She talked herself into becoming Sweetrobin's caretaker. She talked herself into cooperating with Littlefinger rather than seeking another protector. She might wish for control and agency, if she paused to think about what she wanted in life (which she doesn't seem to be doing these days), but she doesn't, because she knows better by now to think about things she can't have except to recognize them as unattainable and dismiss them. She may have sought control in her life and agency in the past, but as of the end of AFFC--and I agree she wasn't always like this--she seems to know better on some level.

How can you argue that she isn't exercising control or agency while simultaneously pointing out all of the active choices she made? She didn't have to appoint herself Sweetrobin's caretaker, she chose to do that. She considered the possibility of seeking another protector and actively rejected it. She chose to go along with Littlefinger's plans because those plans benefited her.

She is beaten down and humbled, because she doesn't say "No!" or "I don't want to be married, not now and not ever, NEVER again!" She says "I am married, you know," which sounds far less to me like a "Hell, no!" and more like a "There's a problem with your idea." She doesn't say she objects to the idea; she doesn't imply she objects to the idea. All she does is pose a problem, one Littlefinger is happy to solve for her. She is beaten down to the point where she can't even articulate anything except "There is a problem with your plan," which is halfhearted to me and suggests that she knows on some level that she has no choice but to raise objections for Littlefinger to poke holes in them, one by one. She sounds truly defeated here, since despite her inward emotions about marriage, all she can say is "I am married, you know" and wait for Littlefinger to plow forward with his great scheme and molest her some more.

Actually, it's very clear that she objects to the idea. Look at this scene:

“A marriage...” Her throat tightened. She did not want to wed again, not now, perhaps not ever. “I do not... I cannot marry. Father, I...” Alayne looked to the door, to make certain it was closed. “I am married,” she whispered. “You know.”

First, she has a negative physical reaction to the idea of marrying Harry (her throat tightens). She then immediately thinks to herself that she doesn't want to get married---I don't see how that could have been any clearer. She starts saying "I do not", and then switches to "I cannot marry"---I'd say chances are good that she was originally going to say "I do not want to marry", then changed course midstream because she's a pretty smart person and doubtless realized that her personal wishes were never going to sway Littlefinger---only the practicalities of the situation could do so, so she appealed to those practicalities. She points out that she's already married, not because she's really on board with the idea and sees a problem, but because she's against the idea but knows the only way to potentially stop this plan is to point out the one impediment that Littlefinger is powerless to alter. This is not her meekly doing what she's told, this is her trying to apply her knowledge of the situation and of how best to manipulate Littlefinger in order to most effectively halt this plan in its tracks.

[Newstar]

Quite frankly, you seem resigned to the idea that Sansa is a beaten down and humbled person, that she now exists to take whatever abuse she receives and is willing to submit to whatever others do to her. It's completely contrary to her inner thoughts, her entire story arc since GOT, and all the foreshadowing around her character.

As I see it, her story arc has taken her to the point where she's at in her last chapter in AFFC. Where it goes after that, who knows? She could turn around in TWOW and poison Littlefinger in the first chapter, grab Sweetrobin and make a run for it. I'm just talking about where I see the character now, and I've given examples showing how she's been beaten down, resigned and worn down, how she shrugs at things that would have (properly) disgusted or appalled her before, how she puts up with things she once violently rejected. The "inner thoughts" I cited in her last chapter in AFFC specifically support my interpretation (that she's resigned to her fate and mentally dismissing even the possibility of hopes and dreams for the future).

As for foreshadowing around her character...I don't know that it specifically leads in any one direction. Just as with Arya, there's ample foreshadowing for her death before the end of the series. And her story arc could lead her in any number of directions, which is part of the fun of her character. Part of my investment in Sansa is seeing her claw her way out of this hole she's in at the end of AFFC (although I don't know how she'll do it in the state she's in, which is also part of the fun).

Sansa is extremely internal and has built up her courtesy armor.

Sure, but we see behind the curtain in several instances in the last Sansa (well, Alayne) chapter in AFFC, and what we see is not reassuring on that score. We see that she mentally rejects thoughts of Sansa; we see her reject the memory of Sansa ("the day is done"); we see her dismiss the idea of ever marrying the Loras Tyrells of the world; she dismisses the idea of ever seeing Jon Snow; she thinks of herself as "bastard brave"; and so on. We see her lack of objection--even internal objection--to Sweetrobin, to Littlefinger. We see her refer to him mostly as Petyr, whereas previously in AFFC she was wary of the different personas of Littlefinger and knew that there was Littlefinger in addition to Petyr (whom she described in warm, glowing terms earlier on). We see the contrast between her inner thoughts (ugh, marriage) and her weak objections to Littlefinger. We see her lack of resistance or even displeasure--either overt or internal--to his kisses and touches. We only know that "he kissed her for a long time." So we see behind the curtain in the last Alayne chapter, and it shows us the extent of her resignation and acceptance of her new life. There's no hint of a future beyond that which she is currently experiencing, no dream of another life. She has accepted her lot and that's that.

It's true that her "Lies and arbour gold" to Littlefinger earlier in AFFC is promising, but I see no evidence that she has maintained that wariness and internal distance. The last chapter in AFFC suggests to me the opposite: rather, that she's fully given over to her fate, both on an exterior level (as I argued before) but even more than that, on an interior level, and that she doesn't have the wherewithal to change course absent some drastic change in circumstances. In short, as far as I can tell, in addition to being beaten down, she's pretty much drunk the Kool-Aid, and there's textual evidence (which I've discussed at some length) to support that take. It might be distasteful, for sure, but it is a legitimate interpretation with textual support. It doesn't mean she can't turn it around, but I don't see her having the tools to do so herself.

This is not her meekly doing what she's told, this is her trying to apply her knowledge of the situation and of how best to manipulate Littlefinger in order to most effectively halt this plan in its tracks.

That's not apparent in the text; she's just throwing out her reflexive objection, and that's the strongest thing she can come up with. It's not Sansa the savvy manipulator (manipulatrix?), it's Sansa weakly objecting to something she doesn't want as strongly as she can.

How can you argue that she isn't exercising control or agency while simultaneously pointing out all of the active choices she made? She didn't have to appoint herself Sweetrobin's caretaker, she chose to do that. She considered the possibility of seeking another protector and actively rejected it. She chose to go along with Littlefinger's plans because those plans benefited her.

She rationalizes to herself her lack of choices. To me, that's not exercising agency, that's showing an understanding of how she lacks agency. She tells herself she has "no true friend but Petyr." She doesn't choose him; she realizes that she has no choice. It's like being a prisoner given nothing to eat except a ham sandwich. If you choose to eat the sandwich because you tell yourself that ham sandwiches aren't so bad, is that really a choice?

And given that this occurs right at the end of the chapter, with basically no room for Sansa to process the enormity of what Littlefinger's telling her, I don't see how readers could logically expect "more" resistance here

Given how strong her inward objections are, maybe more resistance than they got, I think. Sansa's initial objection is of a piece with her pattern with Littlefinger's distasteful suggestions in ASOS/AFFC, which seems to be the following:

1. Littlefinger suggests something Sansa doesn't want to do

2. Sansa balks

3. Littlefinger points out a worse alternative (more blood on Sansa's hands, passing Sansa off as something other than his bastard)/Littlefinger explains his reasoning

4. Sansa agrees

I don't see anything to suggest that Sansa will break the pattern. In fact, GRRM cutting it off where he did might just be teasing that Sansa will actually go against Littlefinger, when there's nothing in AFFC to suggest that she will.

[jarl the climber]

Why would she want to halt his plan? As far as she knows she is the last living Stark and all though she is adverse to being used for her claim, this scheme is beneficial to her and would restore her family to Winterfell. She will at least meet Harry and feel the situation out before rejecting it. Keep in mind that at least some of the Vale Lords are genuine in wanting to support the Starks as well as being related to them. She might or might not oppose it later but not right away.

[tze]

That's not apparent in the text; she's just throwing out her reflexive objection, and that's the strongest thing she can come up with. It's not Sansa the savvy manipulator (manipulatrix?), it's Sansa weakly objecting to something she doesn't want as strongly as she can.

It's very apparent in the text. She's not "weakly" throwing out an objection---the fact that she's already married (to a husband whose whereabouts are unknown) is a pretty huge and difficult-to-alter wrench in any "marry Sansa" plans. She doesn't prevaricate, she chooses to point out the one thing that actively prevents her marriage, the one marriage impediment that Littlefinger is personally incapable of altering. And given that this occurs right at the end of the chapter, with basically no room for Sansa to process the enormity of Littlefinger's full plan, I don't see how readers could logically expect "more" resistance here---first she makes this pretty savvvy objection, then Littlefinger spends an inordinate amount of time telling her just who on earth Harry is, then Littlefinger announces that he not only wants to marry her off, but he wants to put her back in the Lannisters' crosshairs (when she's spent all of AFFC telling herself that she's better off with Littlefinger primarily because he's been keeping her off the Lannisters' radar)---and then the chapter ends. GRRM could have had her jumping for joy at the idea. Presumably he chose not to do so, and instead made her negative feelings clear, for a reason.

She rationalizes to herself her lack of choices. To me, that's not exercising agency, that's showing an understanding of how she lacks agency. She tells herself she has "no true friend but Petyr." She doesn't choose him; she realizes that she has no choice.

She doesn't completely lack choices---she could very well have revealed her identity and/or blamed Petyr for Lysa's murder in front of the Lords Declarant---she just looked at the situation and decided that laying low and sticking with Petyr made more sense than taking a risk on one of the other Vale Lords. She knows Petyr isn't planning on turning her over to Cersei, but she can't say the same, 100%, for anyone else. But even though she couldn't be certain of exactly what would happen, she could still have rolled the dice on Bronze Yohn, and actively chose not to do so. I think claiming she's so beaten down that she's been meekly going along with Littlefinger ignores the personal calculations we've seen her making thus far.

[brashcandy]

Why would she want to halt his plan? As far as she knows she is the last living Stark and all though she is adverse to being used for her claim, this scheme is beneficial to her and would restore her family to Winterfell. She will at least meet Harry and feel the situation out before rejecting it. Keep in mind that at least some of the Vale Lords are genuine in wanting to support the Starks as well as being related to them. She might or might not oppose it later but not right away.

Because she doesn't want to be remarried again for her claim, and she certainly isn't likely to do so at the cost of SR's life. Meeting HtH isn't going to change anything; look at the way he has already been depicted by Martin. Sansa is familiar with that type, and she hasn't shown any enthusiasm to him outside of learning how he's heir to the Vale. The quest for agency has been the defining feature of Sansa's arc, and LF is threatening to collapse all of that again. It's simply not a matter of waiting and seeing if Harry turns out to be an alright chap.

[greensleeves]

Personally, I don't read books because I can relate or identify with a character, but I've often seen people say that men can't relate to Sansa. Is this true? Can we get some guy opinion here? I think it's very silly. Sansa isn't defined by her girliness imo. She has many many qualities and personality traits that are very interesting and have nothing to do with her privates. Unless some people don't want to identity with her because she is a girly-girl, and that's another matter entirely. Brashcandy (in one of my favourite posts on tumblr) once wrote a list of ways anyone can identify with Sansa, even a little bit.

OK, I have a confession to make:

I am a woman (that's not the confession). I don't know if it has to do with relating or identifying, but for whatever reason I always gravitated towards books with female protagonists while I was growing up. This started at a very early age (Nancy Drew, Babysitter's Club, The Secret Garden) and continued. I completely devoured most of the sci-fi/fantasy at my local library that starred female characters, but I generally only read the really famous works that starred males. I don't have enough self-knowledge to understand why this is. It's weird to think that there may be guys out there who had some kind of bizarro childhood reading male versions of all my favorite stuff. I genuinely wonder how gender segregated genre reading is; sometimes it seems as though a lot of the differing views over Sansa might come from these different types of media consumers coming together for GRRM's complex and hugely popular series.

[jarl the climber]

Because she doesn't want to be remarried again for her claim, and she certainly isn't likely to do so at the cost of SR's life. Meeting HtH isn't going to change anything; look at the way he has already been depicted by Martin. Sansa is familiar with that type, and she hasn't shown any enthusiasm to him outside of learning how he's heir to the Vale. The quest for agency has been the defining feature of Sansa's arc, and LF is threatening to collapse all of that again. It's simply not a matter of waiting and seeing if Harry turns out to be an alright chap.

What is Harrys type? All we know is that he has a couple of bastards. Randa does not like him because her family is not wealthy enough to arrange a marrige to him. In fairness to Harry he is the equivalent of a rock star and young women probaly throw themselves at him. A few youthful indiscretions are not enough for me to judge him on. I have a soft spot for Robert Arryn, I would like to see him survive but I don't think he will, nor is Sansa the arbiter of his fate. She is not a healer or a Maegi, she can prevent him from being poisoned maybe but she can not cure him or prevent his illness from killing him.

On the other hand Petyr can not keep her locked up in the Eyrie anymore nor is her disguise as his bastard likely to hold up on the long run. What Sansa needs is allies who are loyal to her and not Petyr. In order to get allies and to get people to do what she wants she has to give them what they want. Just because she might turn on Littlefinger does not mean she won't marry Harry. Robert is sickly and shows no apptitude for being a ruler, the Vale Lords do not want him to rule. Most of them would see Roberts death as sad but inevitable. They also do not care much for Littlefinger, he has got money and some influence but once thats gone they do not have much use for him. Probaly a few of them would want him dead at that point. If Sansa can find a way to negotiate this and keep her head on her shoulders it will come down to what she has to do to accomplish that and whether she wants to establish herself in the Vale or go back to the North, if that is even an option for her.

[Pod The Impaler]

Quite frankly, you seem resigned to the idea that Sansa is a beaten down and humbled person, that she now exists to take whatever abuse she receives and is willing to submit to whatever others do to her. It's completely contrary to her inner thoughts, her entire story arc since GOT, and all the foreshadowing around her character. The fact that you expect her to express her dissatisfaction in a particular way just tells me that you are misreading her character. Sansa is extremely internal and has built up her courtesy armor. She is very deliberate and careful with every word she says and what she shows on her face. She is no different her with LF. She does not trust him and is being very careful with what she is saying . That does not equate to being beaten down and humbled.

I would also add that your portrayal of Sansa as nothing but an abuse victim who has given up adds nothing to the conversation and does not further our understanding of her character development. Rather, it is reducing her to a single-dimensional character who exists for no other purpose than to receive pity from the readers and be used by other characters. It's a gross simplification and distasteful to read.

On the contrary, I think Newstar is doing a good job here, though clearly he (she ?) has poked holes in some of the wishful thinking / positivity of others.

Sansa is still a captive, that much is clear. She knows it, and you can see her inner sadness manifest in some of the things she says and thinks in AFFC. She can dream of romance for Mya Stone and Lothor Brune, but not herself. Her reaction to the whole "marry Harry" scheme is really lukewarm - she does not trust it, despite LF's promise about it being a rebirth of Sansa Stark. Aside from it being not of her choosing, there's the little matter of it implicitly costing Sweetrobin's life. (She doesn't like Sweetrobin, but she doesn't hate him either; he is a child)

"Alayne" is a lie she is accepting in order to survive (and her survival is still definitely at stake). Part of the danger in accepting Alayne as a persona is accepting being a liar. Yes, it is to her short-term benefit (because deception = survival), but Alayne is not her construction but Littlefinger's (much as she works diligently to maintain it).

Far from making her character simplified, her predicament (a prisoner of sorts, still) is driving her complexity. Sansa's internal thought processes are quite conflicted, as are her morals. Even as she learns the game from Littlefinger, this increased prescience is showing her just how dangerous he really is, and also that this form of safety may be just anoither sort of captivity. To some degree that gives her motive to try to find a way to reassert her true identity on her own terms. But is she there yet, has she found the way? No.

Littlefinger's way may be Alayne's way, but not Sansa's. What Sansa actually wants is still not what Sansa gets, and I agree with Newstar if Sansa finds an opening in her cage (a real one, of her own making), she is going to fly. I too think she might try to save Sweetrobin by running off with him at some point. She has always been looking for rescue, but she may be her own rescuer in the end (and someone else's too).

Whether that ends well is another matter. Might work, if she's lucky. Then again to do so might just be "pulling a Quentyn". GRRM always keeps us guessing, after all, and we know Starks are not guaranteed happy endings, even as POV's.

How is this not a complex character ? How does it diminish Sansa as a character, make her into a pity-magnet ? You said yourself she is very internal. Well, ask yourself, what is she (still) internalizing ? Newstar may be onto something - don't reject it because it means Sansa is in a pessimistic condition at AFFC's end.

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] A reminder to talk about the topic, not about other people in the thread. Thank you. [/mod]

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Because she doesn't want to be remarried again for her claim, and she certainly isn't likely to do so at the cost of SR's life. Meeting HtH isn't going to change anything; look at the way he has already been depicted by Martin. Sansa is familiar with that type, and she hasn't shown any enthusiasm to him outside of learning how he's heir to the Vale. The quest for agency has been the defining feature of Sansa's arc, and LF is threatening to collapse all of that again. It's simply not a matter of waiting and seeing if Harry turns out to be an alright chap.

There is also the fact that Littlefinger is a known, confessed, liar and bullshit artist. He himself told Sansa that he feeds people "lies and Arbor gold." It may be that Sansa suspects that the proposed HtH marriage is nothing more than proverbial Arbor gold. She may very well be keeping quiet because she suspects that LF has no real intentions of marrying her off to a handsome husband, making her Lady of the Vale, and helping her reclaim Winterfell. LF is telling Sansa what she thinks she wants to hear - "Harry is very handsome and gallant, he's heir to the Eyrie - just your type! - and he can help you reclaim Winterfell!" I see the proposed HtH marriage as nothing more than bait to reel Sansa in. LF wants her for himself and I think the real marriage he is plotting is going to be one between Sansa and himself - and HE will get Winterfell. He'll be the most powerful lord in the realm and have his Catelyn 2.0 by his side, just as he's always obsessed over.

I just don't see the Sansa of AFFC trusting a man who has told her, to her face, that he lies and bribes to get people to do what he wants. A man who pushed her aunt out the Moon Door and then covered it up by blaming a singer. I doubt Sansa is going to fall for this bait, though how she will be able to resist remains to be seen.

[Lummel]

...Bastard brave. Bastard brave. As I said, she is resigned to life as a bastard and there's no indication in her last chapter that she ever expects to resume her former life as Sansa Stark; she also seems to be okay with this, a huge reversal from her horror in ASOS at being passed off as a bastard. That's what I mean by Sansa being beaten down and humbled. She is indifferent to something which once horrified her: not out of any enlightenment or wisdom about bastard life not being so bad, but because she's resigned to her fate and knows not to hope for anything other than what she's been given...

This is quite interesting. Coming out of a reread of Jon in ADWD one idea that came up was is Jon depressed, if the same were true of Sansa it would be another thematic similarity. The potential to see resignation, a hopelessness about the possibility of future happiness and a reoccurant sense of loss of family seem to be there with both of them.

Not that it would be surprising for either or both of them to be depressed considering all they have been through. :dunno:

[Valkyrja]

How are we wishfully thinking? I'm pretty sure everyone on this thread has acknowledged that, while in LF's clutches, Sansa/Alayne may be in danger of choosing a morally questionable path in order to survive/escape/bring him down. There is always the possibility that she does indeed go down that path. But that does not make the rest of the character analysis we've done here invalid -- we've always acknowledged this possibility of increasing dark parth/moral ambiguity, one that all the remaining Stark children are facing. Bran with his warging people and who knows what else, Arya with the FM, etc. GRRM has ended all of their arcs so far at what seems to be a bit of a 'turning point', and we have no idea exactly how things will go for any of them. But we can make educated guesses based on what we have seen previously of their character arcs. I find it hard to believe she will sumbit meekly to yet another betrothal/marriage situation that is not of her choosing. There is always the possibility that she may indeed like HtH, but I cannot help it if the idea leaves a bad taste in my mouth nonetheless. Why? Not because of what LF has said about Harry -- that might all be his spin for all we know. But because this scheme is of LF's choosing, and does not have Sansa's best interests at heart, no matter what LF might claim. Also, most importantly, going through with it exactly as LF has planned erasing any agency Sansa/Alayne might be in the proccess of acquiring. Also, in Sansa's arc, we've seen a great deal of her capacity for great compassion, and her association not just with the Maid, but with the Mother as well. Will she go down the 'dark mother' route wrt to Sweetrobin? Maybe. But I rather think that as we've seen both her mother and her aunt go down this route, Sansa/Alayne will be different. Is that wishful thinking? Its more of a hope that I have for her character based on the re-read and re-thinking we've been doing here. :)

ETA: Thanks for the insight re: the Jon thread, Lummel, I haven't been able to follow it myself. I agree that probably *all* the remaining Stark children (and probably most characters in this series, really) are or have been pretty badly depressed at some point. :(

[Kittykatknits]

<snip>

No one in this thread has made the claim that Sansa is not a prisoner or in a tough spot. She's not running in a field filled with unicorns and rainbows. We get that. However, that is not the same thing as agreeing with the idea that Sansa is a beaten down person who is resigned to her fate and to anything LF might do. She is more than a prisoner content to draw on the wall as she has no hope left for anything in life anymore. To come to that conclusion would require me to ignore a significant amount of textual evidence, which I am unwilling to do.

Sansa may be forced in to the Alayne persona right now but she is also finding a freedom in being a bastard at the same time, a fact that she is enjoying. She made a conscious decision to care for Sweetrobin, no one forced that choice upon her. We've had more than one example of Sansa's growing skills and her enjoyment at figuring out LF's schemes. If she was beaten down, we would not see this. A beaten and resigned Sansa would not have given us lies and Arbor gold. A beaten Sansa would not have heard the ghost wolf. A beaten Sansa would have made no effort to counter the plan to marry HtH. Sansa has always loved Romance, a beaten Sansa would not have found enjoyment at the idea of love between Mya and Lothor.

From the beginning, Sansa's style has been to build a wall of courtesy and to protect her real self away from everyone. She did that with Joff, Cersei, and Tyrion in KL and she is doing it with LF in the Vale. There is a large amount of textual evidence to show just how little LF knows her in many ways, an indicator that Sansa is being succesful with hiding her true self from him - further proof that she is far from the resigned and beaten Sansa that has been claimed. Sansa's style has also been to outwardly give people what they want while maintaining an inner rebellion, biding her time until she can act. Her thoughts regarding Bronze Yohn, hints that she may gain Lothur's trusts, her plan to refuse a marriage to Sweetrobin all point that she will continue to operate this way. Sansa's initial reaction is so strong it elicits a physical reaction and she then goes on to remind LF that she is already married. Clearly, she does not want the marriage - a fact repeatedly confirmed in the text. Martin then left us on a cliffhanger and has stated that he pushed off another chapter to Winds because some new storylines are being started. There is absolutely nothing to indicate here that Sansa will now be resigned to whatever fate that LF hands to her. She may need time to figure something out, she may take a darker path but to state that Sansa is "resigned, resigned, resigned" is not correct and an exaggeration.

We can talk about the fact that she is in a tough spot or theorize on how she will get away from LF. Those are conversations that I would like to engage in. Stating that Sansa is beaten and humbled, resigned to whatever LF may do to her, and a prisoner content to merely draw on the wall are inaccurate statements that are not supported by the text. She may be forced to go along with his schemes right now but she clearly does not trust him, has been thinking of how to get out of her situation, and evidence points to the fact that Sansa will continue the same way that she has in the past - slowly gain allies, bide her time, and then act.

And as for this:

and I agree with Newstar if Sansa finds an opening in her cage (a real one, of her own making), she is going to fly. I too think she might try to save Sweetrobin by running off with him at some point. She has always been looking for rescue, but she may be her own rescuer in the end (and someone else's too).

We've been saying that for months.

[brashcandy]

This is quite interesting. Coming out of a reread of Jon in ADWD one idea that came up was is Jon depressed, if the same were true of Sansa it would be another thematic similarity. The potential to see resignation, a hopelessness about the possibility of future happiness and a reoccurant sense of loss of family seem to be there with both of them.

Not that it would be surprising for either or both of them to be depressed considering all they have been through. :dunno:

This was not a matter of disputing that Sansa may be naturally a little depressed, Lummel. My goodness, she's still a wanted criminal, separated from her family and having to guard her words around people she would like to be naturally open with. But I do not see in that final chapter any kind of deep seated depression, neither do I see how anyone can come to the conclusion that Sansa is humbled and resigned. And it's not wishful thinking either. Look at how quickly she warms up to Randa, telling her about Lothor and Mya. She's even able to think of Tyrion in relation to the marriage bed without a sense of horror. She wonders what she will do when she hears the music at Lord Nestor's feast, etc etc. Sure, you could make the argument that after she's heard LF's plans, now she might be significantly depressed, but there's very little of that in the chapter. We see instead a determined Sansa, buckling down to her duties with SR and trying to make the best of her situation. Is it ideal, is it what she would prefer? No. But is she despairing and broken? Definitely not.

[brashcandy]

Newstar, on 06 September 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

...Bastard brave. Bastard brave. As I said, she is resigned to life as a bastard and there's no indication in her last chapter that she ever expects to resume her former life as Sansa Stark; she also seems to be okay with this, a huge reversal from her horror in ASOS at being passed off as a bastard. That's what I mean by Sansa being beaten down and humbled. She is indifferent to something which once horrified her: not out of any enlightenment or wisdom about bastard life not being so bad, but because she's resigned to her fate and knows not to hope for anything other than what she's been given...

Let me just correct this while I'm at it. In ASOS, Sansa was initially dismayed about having to pose as a bastard. However, she got over that discomfort quite quickly and actually was able to see the benefit ot it. And FYI, this is in the very same chapter where LF proposes the bastard identity:

At least I am safe here. Joffrey is dead, he cannot hurt me anymore, and I am only a bastard girl now. Alayne Stone has no husband and no claim. And her aunt would soon be here as well. The long nightmare of King's Landing was behind her, and her mockery of a marriage as well. She could make herself a new home here, just as Petyr said.

So please explain to me how Sansa is suddenly beaten down and resigned to being a bastard, when in ASOS, in the very same chapter where it was proposed to her, she's already viewing it as a fairly positive thing, which can safeguard her from predatory individuals. What she truly finds offensive, then as of now, is the idea of being married off for her claim and having no agency. The Sansa we see in AFFC is able to find that agency via Alayne Stone. LF leaves her in charge of the Eyrie during his long absences; she takes on a mothering role to Sweetrobin, and is interested in the Lothor/Mya relationship. She tries to push people associated with Sansa Stark aside, but that's really a futile endeavour given how naturally her thoughts turn to these individuals like Jon and Sandor.