From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XI

[Elba the Intoner]

Also, when she calls upon her "bastard bravery," it's not for fighting her fate, rebelling or rejecting her identity as Alayne Stone; it's to help her endure something horrible and terrifying (crossing the pass). There's a difference between the bravery to fight for your goals and for autonomy, and the bravery to endure something that you would never be able to otherwise tolerate. Sansa seems to be building the latter type of bravery (just as she told herself "I can be brave" before going through with the awful wedding to Tyrion). That seems significant. Sansa's still a survivor, but I don't think she's a fighter anymore.

I am just getting caught up here and I had to comment on this because the part that I highlighted in bold is just not true. It is Sansa who summons up the courage to take Sweetrobin and cross that treacherous land saddle, not Alayne. Just before she crosses over, she hears the wind howling and thinks as Sansa that it sounds like a wolf. This thought as Sansa is what gives her the strength to cross the land saddle. It is a decidedly Sansa moment, not Alayne.

There is clearly a struggle gong on between the Alayne and Sansa personalities, but while you seem to take a pessimistic, glass is half empty view, that any time Sansa comes to the forefront Alayne beats her down, I take a more optimistic, glass is half full view, that Sansa keeps popping up every time Alayne tries to shut her down.

[brashcandy]

This whole debate reminds me of the one we had concerning her wedding night to Tyrion. Just because Sansa does not articulate or voice her resistance in a boisterous, defiant manner does not invalidate her refusal. She doesn't have to cuss LF out for us to know that she's not happy about the marriage arrangement. There's always a whiff of victim blaming in these kinds of assertions that is unsettling. Oh she didn't fight hard enough, or she didn't refuse loudly enough for something to be recognized. We've talked a lot about the subtlety with which Martin writes Sansa, and that always has to be taken into account when we are reading her reactions and trying to guage what she's feeling.

I am just getting caught up here and I had to comment on this because the part that I highlighted in bold is just not true. It is Sansa who summons up the courage to take Sweetrobin and cross that treacherous land saddle, not Alayne. Just before she crosses over, she hears the wind howling and thinks as Sansa that it sounds like a wolf. This thought as Sansa is what gives her the strength to cross the land saddle. It is a decidedly Sansa moment, not Alayne.

This is a great point Elba. Regarding the point about Sansa's bastard bravery, I just don't see how that can be read negatively. Here's the scene where she mentions it:

Up here where the slope was steepest, the steps wound back and forth rather than plunging straight down. Sansa went up the mountain, but Alayne Stone is coming down. It was a strange thought. Coming up, Mya had warned her to keep her eyes on the path ahead, she remembered. "Look up, not down," she said ... but that was not possible on the descent. I could close my eyes. The mule knows the way, he has no need of me. But that seemed more something Sansa would have done, that frightened girl. Alayne was an older woman, and bastard brave.

Now, no matter what we may think of the psychology of Alayne Stone, it seems clear to me that Sansa is drawing strength from this identity and that her construction of "bastard brave" is something positive and courageous. She's not using it to endure her trials, but to confront and overcome them. Indeed, had she only been about endurance, she would have closed her eyes, and let the mule do what it's trained for.

[Kittykatknits]

This whole debate reminds me of the one we had concerning her wedding night to Tyrion. Just because Sansa does not articulate or voice her resistance in a boisterous, defiant manner does not invalidate her refusal. She doesn't have to cuss LF out for us to know that she's not happy about the marriage arrangement. There's always a whiff of victim blaming in these kinds of assertions that is unsettling. Oh she didn't fight hard enough, or she didn't refuse loudly enough for something to be recognized. We've talked a lot about the subtlety with which Martin writes Sansa, and that always has to be taken into account when we are reading her reactions and trying to guage what she's feeling.

This is a great point brashcandy. One of the goals of these threads is to attempt to see the world through Sansa's eyes and understand events from her position. This way, we understand how she thinks and how to interpret what she says and does. Otherwise, the reader will begin to evaluate Sansa's actions based upon what he or she would do or determine what constitutes the appropriate level of defiance from her. By doing so, we are negating her and ignoring how she thinks. In past threads, there have been many conversations that have pointed out Sansa's internal nature. She doesn't just conceal her thoughts from those around her, she does it to the reader at times too. That often means that we need to pull single lines or thoughts from multiple chapters and books to see what she is thinking. With Sansa, we look to patterns. If a reader relies on merely a single line or phrase in a Sansa chapter, quite a bit is being missed.

She does not need to fight back or use a particular combination of words in order for us to recognize defiance. We can recognize it because we know her and have gone through the exercise of seeing Sansa's world through her eyes.

[Lady Lea]

This whole debate reminds me of the one we had concerning her wedding night to Tyrion. Just because Sansa does not articulate or voice her resistance in a boisterous, defiant manner does not invalidate her refusal. She doesn't have to cuss LF out for us to know that she's not happy about the marriage arrangement. There's always a whiff of victim blaming in these kinds of assertions that is unsettling. Oh she didn't fight hard enough, or she didn't refuse loudly enough for something to be recognized.

She does not need to fight back or use a particular combination of words in order for us to recognize defiance.

This is a very important point. We often hear people saying that Sansa isn't fighting hard enough, and that if she was resisting she would use an X combination of words, or attempt to fight physically (her time as captive, the marriage to Tyrion, the marriage bed, the match with SR or HtH, or any number of things). It's very a very dangerous thing to do. She is resisting and fighting the only way she can and knows how. Maybe it would be more obvious if she tried to smack Joff over the head every time she ran into him in the Red Keep, but considering he was beating her without her doing anything, what would that get her?

Society has allowed aggressors to definite was resistance is: screaming, crying, scratching, pushing, kicking, biting, punching. Reality is never quite as clear cut. Sometimes you can't resist like that, but that doesn't mean you are willing or participating or even resigned.

[brashcandy]

What is Harrys type? All we know is that he has a couple of bastards.

From two different women at 15. He's managed to surpass good old Bob. Harry could turn out to be sweet and wonderful, but I doubt it. He's already proven to be reckless with his affections, and Sansa has learnt to be wary of these charming flashy types.

Randa does not like him because her family is not wealthy enough to arrange a marrige to him. In fairness to Harry he is the equivalent of a rock star and young women probaly throw themselves at him. A few youthful indiscretions are not enough for me to judge him on. I have a soft spot for Robert Arryn, I would like to see him survive but I don't think he will, nor is Sansa the arbiter of his fate. She is not a healer or a Maegi, she can prevent him from being poisoned maybe but she can not cure him or prevent his illness from killing him.

Randa is not the discerning type when it comes to men - she slept with Marillion after all. However, whether her opinion of Harry is based on jealousy or not, Sansa has her own reasons to not want to be tied to someone like him.

On the other hand Petyr can not keep her locked up in the Eyrie anymore nor is her disguise as his bastard likely to hold up on the long run. What Sansa needs is allies who are loyal to her and not Petyr. In order to get allies and to get people to do what she wants she has to give them what they want. Just because she might turn on Littlefinger does not mean she won't marry Harry. Robert is sickly and shows no apptitude for being a ruler, the Vale Lords do not want him to rule. Most of them would see Roberts death as sad but inevitable.

The Vale lords wanted to protect SR from LF, at least the conscientious ones. LF has to be very careful how he deals with the child. Once again, there's nothing suggesting that Sansa would be willing to see SR die in order to source allies in the Vale.

[Newstar]

On the contrary, I think Newstar is doing a good job here, though clearly he (she ?) has poked holes in some of the wishful thinking / positivity of others.

I appreciate the comment, although I agree I don't share the optimism other posters have as to Sansa's current headstate. It doesn't mean I think she's permanently lost with no hope of ever being a Stark again or making her own way in the world, just that I see nothing in her last AFFC chapter except hopelessness (in the sense of "without hopes" rather than despair per se), resignation and acceptance of her bastard status, and without rehashing my previous posts, I've cited a lot of textual support for that interpretation. It's not the only interpretation, sure, but I find it a lot more plausible than the "Sansa is just getting comfortable with her bastard identity for kicks and is secretly keeping her cards close to her chest in the hopes of screwing over Littlefinger later." Before that last AFFC chapter, that interpretation seemed somewhat more likely, despite her increasing identification with "Petyr" ("Why, I scarcely know myself," "Lies and arbour gold," "I must be Alayne all the time," etc. etc.) After? ("Bastard brave," "She had been born on the wrong side of the blanket," "That could never be. Alayne had no brothers," "I am married, you know," "He kissed her for a long time") Not so much.

So please explain to me how Sansa is suddenly beaten down and resigned to being a bastard, when in ASOS, in the very same chapter where it was proposed to her, she's already viewing it as a fairly positive thing, which can safeguard her from predatory individuals

But that passage you quoted fits exactly with my described pattern. Sansa balks at Littlefinger's suggestion, he threatens to pass her off as somebody even lower, Sansa accepts and rationalizes to herself it won't be so terrible when she realizes he could do worse. Unpalatable suggestion/resistance/threat/acceptance and resignation to suggestion/Littlefinger gets what he wants and Sansa has to suck it up.

On Sansa's recurring thoughts of Jon Snow, the Hound, and her flash of "Sansa" thinking of the wolf on the mountain pass might be signs that she can't repress "Sansa" no matter how hard she tries. However, the ephemeral nature of the "Sansa" flash and her easy mental dismissal of Sansa, all thoughts of the Hound, and even the dream of ever seeing her half-brother ever again, make it seem less like an itch that can't be scratched and more like the last few embers glowing after the fire has long since gone out. Both interpretations are possible, but the way she mentally deals with her thoughts of the Hound, Loras Tyrell, and Jon--in a "This is permanent," not a "This is a fun roleplaying exercise where I pretend to be Alayne all the time" way--suggests that she isn't mentally making that distinction anymore.

What I see is that Sansa is truly in danger of being unable to reclaim her Stark identity. She is resigned to being a bastard forever (and again, I've cited evidence of her holding this view in the last chapter). She is very psychologically vulnerable to Littlefinger's manipulations, and views him almost entirely as the benevolent "Petyr" as of the end of AFFC (her "lies and arbour gold" forgotten). She's undergoing the same kind of identity crisis as Bran, who wed the trees, since he thought no one was ever likely to wed him, and Arya, who reasons that "No one" is an improvement on "Arya Horseface." All three are under the protection of creepy, sinister mentors with whom they've started to identify. All three seem to be undergoing some form of ego-death (especially Arya). However, Bran and Arya, no matter how deeply they go into their new identities, have something to anchor them to their Stark selves (direwolves, Needle), to pull them back from the brink. Sansa lost her direwolf. She has no anchor to her Stark identity, and it's showing.

The only protection she had against Littlefinger was her courtesy armour, and the way she thinks of Littlefinger as Petyr, values him, admires him, and accedes to his requests with little resistance, suggests that he's hacked her courtesy armour. She's in real danger of losing herself, and I think it's overly optimistic to pretend otherwise. GRRM himself said "Sansa may be dead as well. There's only Alayne Stone." She's not lost yet, but she's well on her way to being completely lost: she's mentally beaten down and the fight's gone out of her (as I've discussed before), she's increasingly identifying with Littlefinger, and she doesn't have the protections that the other Stark kids in similar predicaments do.

I don't see her stint as a bastard as a fun roleplaying exercise or a refreshing new take on life and love. Rather, to me it's part and parcel of Littlefinger's assault on her self and on her soul. Littlefinger's assault is itself an extension of the assault on Sansa's soul that's taken place over the course of the series, where her ideals, her hopes, her dreams, her ambitions, her expectations, her ideas about what she deserves, her pride, her self-esteem, her ego, and ultimately her self have all been dismantled one by one. It's funny that there's so much handwringing over Littlefinger (likely) stepping up his sexual abuse to full-out rape at some point in the future, when what he's been doing is just as bad, a violation of Sansa's identity and sense of self. At least Cersei and the Hound only deliberately tore apart her ideals/worldview (a sort of philosophical violation, and there was a predatory sexual flavour to the way they tore apart her notions about the world with obvious relish). Littlefinger's launched a full-out assault on her very being, which is a logical extension of Sansa's soul being taken apart over the course of the series.

Like Arya, Sansa seems to rationalize the loss of the less desirable aspects of her former self as no great loss, and a lot of fans cheer on Sansa's transformation, but it looks less like growing up by the end of AFFC and more like a hollowing out, to me. I guess we're going to find out what's left when everything that made Sansa who she is has been burned away, but her new "father" being Littlefinger--Alayne's "creator"--is not reassuring.

We've talked a lot about the subtlety with which Martin writes Sansa, and that always has to be taken into account when we are reading her reactions and trying to guage what she's feeling.

Well, we know what she thinks--no marriage, not now and not ever--and what she says: "I am married, you know." It is what it is. She tells us what she feels, and we see what she says. It doesn't mean that she's weak or that she should lash out and that her failure to do so is some kind of indictment of her character or an indication of weakness, only that she doesn't. In the context of the last AFFC chapter, when she otherwise externally and internally displays complete and permanent acceptance of her Alayne identity and acquiescence to Littlefinger's requests and demands of her, her mild language, her hesitance, her lack of outright refusal and her unwillingness to voice even a real, clear-cut objection say something as well about Sansa's ability and willingness to even try to resist Littlefinger. And what they say isn't subtle or difficult to discern. It's right there.

[brashcandy]

But that passage you quoted fits exactly with my described pattern. Sansa balks at Littlefinger's suggestion, he threatens to pass her off as somebody even lower, Sansa accepts and rationalizes to herself it won't be so terrible when she realizes he could do worse. Unpalatable suggestion/resistance/threat/acceptance and resignation to suggestion/Littlefinger gets what he wants and Sansa has to suck it up.

Newstar, I'm genuinely puzzled by this. Could you specify exactly what you're speaking about with regard to her realising LF could do worse? Because when I read that chapter, we see LF telling her she has to be his natural daughter to offset suspicion. She initially balks at the idea of being called a bastard, but then accepts it easily enough after LF points out why it's necessary to tell that particular lie - he has no knights in his service who could pose as her father etc etc. After this, he tells her who was really responsible for Joff's death, and that Marg will go on to marry Tommen. Sansa doesn't know how she feels about this, but expresses relief to herself to be out of that situation and able to create a new life as Alayne. What threat does LF issue? At this point, Sansa is a wanted for Joffrey's murder, so she too is quite mindful of the need to remain hidden. Instead of resigning herself to her fate, she sees the positive potential in it, as it frees her from the claim which others wanted to exploit.

On Sansa's recurring thoughts of Jon Snow, the Hound, and her flash of "Sansa" thinking of the wolf on the mountain pass might be signs that she can't repress "Sansa" no matter how hard she tries. However, the ephemeral nature of the "Sansa" flash and her easy mental dismissal of Sansa, all thoughts of the Hound, and even the dream of ever seeing her half-brother ever again, make it seem less like an itch that can't be scratched and more like the last few embers glowing after the fire has long since gone out. Both interpretations are possible, but the way she mentally deals with her thoughts of the Hound, Loras Tyrell, and Jon--in a "This is permanent," not a "This is a fun roleplaying exercise where I pretend to be Alayne all the time" way--suggests that she isn't mentally making that distinction anymore.

It suggests to me that she's being realistic and keeping focused on her role play as Alayne Stone which she knows is important to her survival. What good would it do her to have long drawn out thoughts about Sandor or Jon when she cannot run to them for help, and Sansa Stark is being hunted throughout Westeros?

What I see is that Sansa is truly in danger of being unable to reclaim her Stark identity. She is resigned to being a bastard forever (and again, I've cited evidence of her holding this view in the last chapter).

I don't think Martin would have included the mention of the ghost wolf if he wanted us to think that Sansa was in danger of losing her Stark identity. And she certainly remembers Sansa Stark's married status quickly enough when LF proposes the marriage to HtH. And just for the record, if Sansa was to decide to remain Alayne Stone, it's not a terrible thing. The important point would be that she's making this conscious choice, and not being forced into it. She has positive role models in Jon Snow and Mya Stone, and could very well opt for the anonymity bastardy might provide. It does not have to mean that she's been brainwashed and/or broken.

She is very psychologically vulnerable to Littlefinger's manipulations, and views him almost entirely as the benevolent "Petyr" as of the end of AFFC (her "lies and arbour gold" forgotten). She's undergoing the same kind of identity crisis as Bran, who wed the trees, since he thought no one was ever likely to wed him, and Arya, who reasons that "No one" is an improvement on "Arya Horseface." All three are under the protection of creepy, sinister mentors with whom they've started to identify. However, Bran and Arya, no matter how deeply they go into their new identities, have something to anchor them to their Stark selves (direwolves, Needle). Sansa lost her direwolf. She has no anchor to her Stark identity, and it's showing.

Again, not true. Sansa may have lost Lady, but Robert did say to get her a dog and she'd be happier for it. We've talked about how her dreams of Sandor and the unkiss play a similar role to Arya's Needle and she also hid his bloody cloak. Although Lady is dead, she's still able to hear the ghost wolf, and even though Sansa is posing as Alayne, most of her preoccupations and interests are classic Sansa.

The only protection she had against Littlefinger was her courtesy armour, and the way she thinks of Littlefinger as Petyr, values him, admires him, and accedes to his requests with little resistance, suggests that he's hacked her courtesy armour. She's in real danger of losing herself, and I think it's overly optimistic to pretend otherwise. She's not lost yet, but she's well on her way to being completely lost: she's mentally beaten down and the fight's gone out of her (as I've discussed before), she's increasingly identifying with Littlefinger, and she doesn't have the protections that the other Stark kids in similar predicaments do.

So far, everything Sansa has done by way of supporting or identifying with LF has been to ensure her own survival. Yes, we know the man is manipulative and shady, but your view of Sansa as beaten down with no fight left in her is simply not supported in the text, and seems to just be how you want to read her state of mind at the end of AFFC.

Well, we know what she thinks--no marriage, not now and not ever--and what she says: "I am married, you know." It is what it is. She tells us what she feels, and we see what she says. It doesn't mean that she's weak or that she should lash out and that her failure to do so is some kind of indictment of her character or an indication of weakness, only that she doesn't. In the context of the last AFFC chapter, when she otherwise externally and internally displays complete and permanent acceptance of her Alayne identity and acquiescence to Littlefinger's requests and demands of her, her mild language,her hesitance, her lack of outright refusal and her unwillingness to voice even a real, clear-cut objection say something as well about Sansa's ability and willingness to even try to resist Littlefinger. And what they say isn't subtle or difficult to discern. It's right there.

Did you read tze's reply to your earlier post? When she makes clear that Sansa's objection to LF's plan is not some timid refusal, but that she's presenting him with a real obstacle to marrying her off? She was going to refuse outright, but then realises that isn't going to really change matters. Given that now she knows LF has something in the works to see her safely annulled, not to mention kill off her cousin, it stands to reason that she'll develop another strategy to stop him.

[jarl the climber]

The Vale lords wanted to protect SR from LF, at least the conscientious ones. LF has to be very careful how he deals with the child. Once again, there's nothing suggesting that Sansa would be willing to see SR die in order to source allies in the Vale.

The Lord Declarants wanted to remove Robert from Petyrs custody because that is the basis of his power in the Vale. Petyr does have to be careful but as he holds his power in the Vale on the basis of being Roberts guardian his death by posoining would most likely be blamed on one of his enemies if his death is even scutinized closely. His illness is well known in the Vale and while none of the more honest Lords would wish for the murder of Jon Arryns son or even his death by natural causes, they would welcome the ascension of Harry and a new regime more in line with their veiws after a proper period of mourning for poor Robert.

[brashcandy]

I don't see her stint as a bastard as a fun roleplaying exercise or a refreshing new take on life and love. Rather, to me it's part and parcel of Littlefinger's assault on her self and on her soul. Littlefinger's assault is itself an extension of the assault on Sansa's soul that's taken place over the course of the series, where her ideals, her hopes, her dreams, her ambitions, her expectations, her ideas about what she deserves, her pride, her self-esteem, her ego, and ultimately her self have all been dismantled one by one. It's funny that there's so much handwringing over Littlefinger (likely) stepping up his sexual abuse to full-out rape at some point in the future, when what he's been doing is just as bad in its way, a violation of Sansa's identity and sense of self. At least Cersei and the Hound only deliberately tore apart her ideals/worldview (a sort of philosophical violation). Littlefinger's launched a full-out assault on her very being which is a logical extension of Sansa's self being taken apart over the course of the series.

Like Arya, Sansa seems to rationalize the loss of the less desirable aspects of her former self as no great loss, and a lot of fans cheer on Sansa's transformation, but it looks less like growing up by the end of AFFC and more like a hollowing out, to me. I guess we're going to find out what's left when everything that made Sansa who she is has been burned away, but her new "father" being Littlefinger--Alayne's "creator"--is not reassuring.

OK, you keep editing in new comments, so I'll reply to this as well. In the very first chapter of AFFC, LF makes a request to Sansa to be Alayne Stone in her heart. She agrees, telling him what he wants to hear without actually making any such commitment - lies and arbor gold. LF might want assault her identity and her soul, but it's not going to be so bloody easy at all. She remains as always vested in her Stark identity, even whilst she herself might not realise it.

where her ideals, her hopes, her dreams, her ambitions, her expectations, her ideas about what she deserves, her pride, her self-esteem, her ego, and ultimately her self have all been dismantled one by one

I don't think you quite understand the journey Sansa has gone through in the novels. She lost the naivete and some of the dangerous idealism she once held, but there's been no systematic dismantling of her self esteem, ego and such things. As much as the Hound tried to get her to accept his cynical world view, she ends up rescuing him with her compassion and love. Many people have tried to break Sansa down - Joffrey, Cersei and Lysa to name a few - but every time she's held fast to her pride and values. If you think that LF will break her down and accomplish some takeover of her very soul, you're welcome to your opinion, but from where I stand, Sansa still possesses a strong spirit and a determination not to be entrapped anymore.

[Newstar]

What threat does LF issue?

I went back and reread, and nope, you're right. He does suggest that "Kella" be her mother, but that's the extent of it. I was getting that confused with him threatening to have more blood on her hands.

It suggests to me that she's being realistic and keeping focused on her role play as Alayne Stone which she knows is important to her survival. What good would it do her to have long drawn out thoughts about Sandor or Jon when she cannot run to them for help, and Sansa Stark is being hunted throughout Westeros?

Her use of language suggests that she has crossed the line from roleplay to acceptance. She uses words like "never," again implying permanence. I'm not going to run back and requote every passage, since I've done that and you disagree as to their significance.

And just for the record, if Sansa was to decide to remain Alayne Stone, it's not a terrible thing. The important point would be that she's making this conscious choice, and not being forced into it. She has positive role models in Jon Snow and Mya Stone, and could very well opt for the anonymity bastardy might provide. It does not have to mean that she's been brainwashed and/or broken.

That's getting two things confused, though (just as I did with the bastard discussion, apparently). If she does find some autonomy in some Pollyanna-esque future and decides to remain as a bastard because it's not so bad, fine. She is brainwashed and broken now to the point where she is resigned to being a bastard, as long as Littlefinger says she must and not a moment sooner. If that changes, fine, but she won't seek that change herself.

Again, not true. Sansa may have lost Lady, but Robert did say to get her a dog and she'd be happier for it. We've talked about how her dreams of Sandor and the unkiss play a similar role to Arya's Needle and she also hid his bloody cloak.

Sansa herself knows that the Hound (or the sad old hound's replacement) is no fit Lady substitute. She thinks of Lady wistfully in ACOK, and moments later the Hound winds up with a knife to her throat. The sad old hound is unable to defend her from her would-be rapist (so the "hound" couldn't protect her, which he couldn't after ACOK, being unable to protect her either from an unwanted marriage or Littlefinger's predations), and she knows this: "I wish you were Lady" (you, sir, are no Lady). The hound or the Hound is incapable of saving her, as she well knows.

Although Lady is dead, she's still able to hear the ghost wolf, and even though Sansa is posing as Alayne, most of her preoccupations and interests are classic Sansa.

Her preoccupations and interests are feminine, but that's about the end of it. I don't see Sansa anywhere in them. She isn't swinging a sword around, but Alayne's somewhat generic as female characters go.

Yes, we know the man is manipulative and shady, but your view of Sansa as beaten down with no fight left in her is simply not supported in the text, and seems to just be how you want to read her state of mind at the end of AFFC.

I've given several examples of textual support. You may not agree with them, and I agree that they're not the only interpretation, but they are indeed supported in the text. It's not the most optimistic reading, but to my mind, it's the most plausible one, and it's simply unfair to keep stating they're not supported by the text when I've given several examples in several posts showing how they are.

It's also slightly disrespectful to continue to imply, after I've gone to some trouble to cite textual examples in several posts and explain my opinion at length and in detail, that my different viewpoint is due to a misunderstanding of the text or a desire to project my own view of the character onto the books. I might equally say that the misunderstanding of the text and the desire to project your own view of the character onto the books are yours--"There's only Alayne Stone"--but I won't, because I don't think it's a constructive or particularly civilized approach to this discussion. You are free to disagree, but I would prefer you do so in a way that doesn't position yourself as the ultimate arbiter of the interpretation of the text or as an individual with special insight into my psychological processes with respect to a fictional character.

[brashcandy]

I went back and reread, and nope, you're right. He does suggest that "Kella" be her mother, but that's the extent of it. I was getting that confused with him threatening to have more blood on her hands.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Her use of language suggests that she has crossed the line from roleplay to acceptance. She uses words like "never," again implying permanence. I'm not going to run back and requote every passage, since I've done that and you disagree as to their significance.

Well, we'll have to disagree with that. At this point in time, Sansa knows that she has to be Alayne for the foreseeable future, and so her language will reflect that reality, not that she's run out of options or has been defeated by LF.

That's getting two things confused, though (just as I did with the bastard discussion, apparently). If she does find some autonomy in some Pollyanna-esque future and decides to remain as a bastard because it's not so bad, fine. She is brainwashed and broken now to the point where she is resigned to being a bastard, as long as Littlefinger says she must and not a moment sooner. If that changes, fine, but she won't seek that change herself.

Here's the thing: I think at some point Alayne Stone stopped being LF's creation and became Sansa Stark's bastard brave persona. I think what Mya tells her atop the mountain is meant to be significant: "a stone is a mountain's daughter." If Sansa takes that lesson to heart, she's not going to be acquiescing to any plans LF has for her future.

Sansa herself knows that the Hound (or the sad old hound's replacement) is no fit Lady substitute. She thinks of Lady wistfully in ACOK, and moments later the Hound winds up with a knife to her throat. The sad old hound is unable to defend her from her would-be rapist (so the "hound" couldn't protect her, which he couldn't after ACOK, being unable to protect her either from an unwanted marriage or Littlefinger's predations), and she knows this: "I wish you were Lady" (you, sir, are no Lady). The hound or the Hound is incapable of saving her, as she well knows.

This makes no sense to me. She also thought Lothor Brune was Sandor for one bewildering moment, and he's clearly able to protect her. The sad old Hound is blind and crippled; Sandor still has full sight and would probably be just as formidable on horseback if his thigh injury really is permanent. The last time Sansa saw him he promised to kill anyone who hurt her, and had recently saved her life during a riot. She has all reason to associate him with being a protector.

Her preoccupations and interests are feminine, but that's about the end of it. I don't see Sansa anywhere in them. She isn't swinging a sword around, but Alayne's somewhat generic as female characters go.

Alayne is interested in romances, surprise Sansa is too. Alayne wants to dance at the feast and we know who loves to dance. Alayne talks of being bastard brave, guess who has a brother who fits that definition nicely?

I've given several examples of textual support. You may not agree with them, and I agree that they're not the only interpretation, but they are indeed supported in the text. It's not the most optimistic reading, but to my mind, it's the most plausible one, and it's simply unfair to keep stating they're not supported by the text when I've given several examples in several posts showing how they are. It's also slightly disrespectful to continue to imply that my different viewpoint is due to a misunderstanding of the text or a desire to project my own view of the character onto the books. "There's only Alayne Stone."

How is your reading plausible? Is it plausible that Martin would reverse Sansa's careful character development up to this point and have her sink to LF's levels and his corrupt influence? That he would ignore the compassionate qualities which have always seen Sansa through her toughest times, and have her lose her goodness to LF's machinations? And I'm sorry if you think I'm being disrespectful, but I'm calling it as I see it. I honestly think you're profoundly misunderstood when it comes to Sansa's character.

[Stark@heart]

Here's my 2 cents...

I think that Sansa has been trying very hard to put "Sansa" away because "Sansa" has no future. No family or friends that can help her, a charge of regicide/ death warrant and an unwanted marriage hanging over her head.

Why would Sansa want to be Sansa at this point?

It's safer and easier to be Alayne. Alayne has a place in the world and a rich and powerful "father" to protect her. Alayne has a future or atleast she might. Sansa seems a dead end, a song that ended almost as soon as it began. These are Sansa's own thoughts from earlier in the book ( in KL ) and had she stayed in the Eyrie and cut off from real life she might really have lost herself.

Now that she's come back down the mountain and will live amongst people and activities again, she'll find it harder to be Alayne and more Sansa will come through. She's already given herself away to Randa and with Shaddrick there it's only a matter of time before he figures it out too.

Once Randa starts gossiping about Arya being married to Ramsy and Stannis attacking Winterfell - Sansa will have to play her part to a 'T" and I just don't see it. She may have learned a lot at Petyr's knee but Sansa is still Sansa and deep down she'll always be a sweet little dove ( or little lady) as Cersei would say.

If she's ready for it and playing her part as Alayne, she does well but when caught off guard - not so much.

Sansa will truly have to decide now. To be Alayne always ( even in her thoughts/ head - always on guard) as Petyr said or keep "Sansa" tucked away, as she does now. It's a risk to keep "Sansa" around but I think when it comes down to it - she'll take that risk. I'm hoping that after she realizes that she'll also take her fate into her own hands.

Time is running out either way...

I want to see her embrace her Starkness and herself and reign as the Queen of Winter.

*** GRRM looks alot to history when thinking up his wars and power struggles and for some reason I see Sansa's story as being somewhat like Elizabeth I The Virgin Queen

[Newstar]

This makes no sense to me. She also thought Lothor Brune was Sandor for one bewildering moment, and he's clearly able to protect her.

It reminded me of Tyrion's moment of thinking that Jaime had come to save him in ACOK. Of course, it wasn't Jaime, it turned out to be someone else. "Lothor" is actually "Littlefinger" in this situation (just as "the sad old hound" is actually the Hound). This echoes Littlefinger saving Sansa later on from Marillion (and Lysa), only to pose a greater threat himself.

The sad old Hound is blind and crippled; Sandor still has full sight and would probably be just as formidable on horseback if his thigh injury really is permanent. The last time Sansa saw him he promised to kill anyone who hurt her, and had recently saved her life during a riot. She has all reason to associate him with being a protector.

She does, but she knows he can't help her, and she knows that she would prefer Lady at any rate. As for the Hound's battle capabilities, it's hard to know for sure, but he could very well be just as useless in a pinch as the sad old hound was, and he has been just as useless since ACOK. He's no good to Sansa where he is.

Alayne is interested in romances, surprise Sansa is too. Alayne wants to dance at the feast and we know who loves to dance. Alayne talks of being bastard brave, guess who has a brother who fits that definition nicely?

This all seems rather generic to me, again. Even Sansa calling herself "bastard brave" has no connection to Jon (despite her thinking of Jon as a bastard just like her), since she never associated Jon with bravery before, particularly.

Even if these little glimpses of Sansa unconsciously peek through, she seems to have consciously renounced Sansa Stark and is resigned to that ("The day is done," etc. etc.), and these little hints of Sansa's identity, if you can call them that, are unconscious and, when recognized, batted away immediately. These mental hiccups ("I [not Sansa] am married," "Jon Snow?") might just be Sansa's last gasps, rather than some indication that Alayne is holding on to her Sansa identity. We see the opposite at several points.

Is it plausible that Martin would reverse Sansa's careful character development up to this point and have her sink to LF's levels and his corrupt influence?

I'm not saying she will. I'm saying she's in very great danger of doing that, just as Bran and Arya are in very great danger of sinking to Bloodraven/the Faceless Men's levels and their corrupting influences. The parallel is there and it's absolutely deliberate in my view. I'm just as worried about Arya, too, since many Arya fans seem to take her hiding Needle and Nymeria as proof positive that she is just playing the FM and doesn't believe any of their philosophy and will bust out when and how she wants, when I see absolutely no indication of that in her recent chapters. I feel the same about Sansa; she's in trouble, and her path is leading nowhere good, unless she does something drastic to change course. It seems to me that many don't want to look seriously at the permanent language she uses in her last AFFC chapter, at her conscious understanding and acceptance of her lot (regardless of what's going on subconsciously), at her increasing trust and acceptance of Littlefinger. Many seem to want to stop the clock at "Lies and arbour gold" and act as if Sansa's development stops then and there, but she continues to develop and change after that and go deeper and deeper into Alayne Stone, as far as I can tell. The same thing seems to be happening with Arya, and with Bran and his visions. I don't know that any of them can make it out, and I don't see any conscious indication from any of them at this juncture that they ever intend to: Arya's continuing her training and merrily murdering people, Bran's lost in his visions and detached from Meera and Jojen, and Sansa's given up on "Sansa" forever.

That he would ignore the compassionate qualities which have always seen Sansa through her toughest times, and have her lose her goodness to LF's machinations?

Sansa hasn't really been faced with a choice of doing something truly horrible or dying, though. She didn't have to decide whether to go along with the Joffrey murder plot. She didn't have to decide whether she wanted to frame Tyrion (it was too late). She's had her own kind of "plot armour" (sin armour, I guess) in that respect. The worst thing she's done (frame Marillion for murder) is excusable in part, since hey, he was willing to help kill her, but she still did it. However, winter is coming, which means her "sin armour" might not hold up. She might be faced very soon with a choice between doing something horrible or dying. Her "goodness" might not withstand a choice between doing or accepting something horrible (the murder of an innocent child) or dying, just as Brienne couldn't withstand Stoneheart's horrible ultimatum. But really, Sansa's also shown herself willing to throw others under the bus for her own ends (Arya, Ned, Marillion, etc.), more than once. Sometimes it was to survive, sometimes it was just to get what she wanted; I'm not like most Sansa fans, in that I take a very dim view of her actions in AGOT with the Lady/Arya fiasco and with running to Cersei. It doesn't mean she's a traitor or a kinslayer by association or irredeemable or no better than a Lannister or any of that rot, but she's still capable of it. She's done the opposite (helping Dontos, informing Margaery, although they certainly had to pry it out of her), but the foundation is there for her losing her goodness, since her "goodness" seems to be somewhat malleable to begin with.

Littlefinger is all about pushing Sansa's boundaries: moral, psychological, and sexual. I won't get into the sexual or psychological side of things, but he seems to be winning both those battles. He's already successfully pushed her into framing Marillion. Depending on how damning that action is, one may already consider that she's lost some of her "goodness" (although again, there was precedent for what she did to Marillion). So it's not crazy in my mind to worry about Littlefinger pushing her to do worse and worse things, or to believe that Sansa might readily do worse and worse things once Littlefinger talks her into doing them. Her indifference to administering Sweetrobin dangerous medicine, even after Colemon tells her it's dangerous, is also a disturbing sign. True, Sweetrobin's seizures are a valid concern and Sweetrobin's safety will be academic if he shakes himself off a cliff, but Sansa's casual attitude, compared to Colemon's legitimate fears, was downright creepy. And this is, again, Sansa's last chapter in AFFC, the last glimpse we get of her, and the girl we see is not particularly compassionate.

[brashcandy]

It reminded me of Tyrion's moment of thinking that Jaime had come to save him in ACOK. Of course, it wasn't Jaime, it turned out to be someone else. "Lothor" is actually "Littlefinger" in this situation (just as "the sad old hound" is actually the Hound). This echoes Littlefinger saving Sansa later on from Marillion (and Lysa), only to pose a greater threat himself.

There are actually very interesting parallels between Lothor and Sandor in the text. Now, I'm not disputing that Martin wanted us to be reminded of Sansa's affinity with dogs when he had her bonding with the old dog on the Fingers, and there might be foreshadowing invested in that relationship; however, we have to look at that particular scene for what it is and the parallels only stretch so far. When Marillion attacks her, the dog intially protests, but after a kick by Marillion is sent off whimpering. There's no way in hell that would happen if the dog was meant to be a straight representation of Sandor Clegane. But let's take the symbolism out of the discussion for a moment, and look at Sansa's thoughts in the scene. It is Lothor Brune that she mistakes for Sandor. He may have been sent by LF to protect her, but she wishes/thinks he was Sandor. I see it as just another hint of just how blind LF is to that relationship she shares with the Hound, a relationship which he is ironically helping to stoke the fires of by having a man like Lothor around.

She does, but she knows he can't help her, and she knows that she would prefer Lady at any rate. As for the Hound's battle capabilities, it's hard to know for sure, but he could very well be just as useless in a pinch as the sad old hound was, and he has been just as useless since ACOK. He's no good to Sansa where he is.

She certainly would prefer Lady to the old dog, but does this have anything to do with Sandor? I'd argue, no. It needs to be said that by this point, Sandor's relevance to Sansa has crossed into a blurry territory that is no longer defined by him as a warrior, but as a lover.

This all seems rather generic to me, again. Even Sansa calling herself "bastard brave" has no connection to Jon (despite her thinking of Jon as a bastard just like her), since she never associated Jon with bravery before, particularly.

It's not generic. In AGOT she thinks that the brothers of the Night's Watch were the black knights of the wall, and she's sympathetic to Jon's sacrifice. Later she learns that he's been made Lord Commander of the Watch.

Even if these little glimpses of Sansa unconsciously peek through, she seems to have consciously renounced Sansa Stark and is resigned to that ("The day is done," etc. etc.), and these little hints of Sansa's identity, if you can call them that, are unconscious and, when recognized, batted away immediatley. These mental hiccups ("I [not Sansa] am married," "Jon Snow?") might just be Sansa's last gasps, rather than some indication that Alayne is holding on to her Sansa identity. We see the opposite at several points.

Sansa's last gasps? When there's a ghost wolf as big as the mountain she hears? Ok, well, I'm done trying to convince you. You can continue to think that Sansa is barely hanging on by a thread.

I'm not saying she will. I'm saying she's in very great danger of doing that, just as Bran and Arya are in very great danger of sinking to Bloodraven/the Faceless Men's levels and their corrupting influences. The parallel is there and it's absolutely deliberate in my view. I'm just as worried about Arya, too, since many Arya fans seem to take her hiding Needle and Nymeria as proof positive that she is just playing the FM and doesn't believe any of their philosophy and will bust out when and how she wants, when I see absolutely no indication of that in her recent chapters. I feel the same about Sansa; she's in trouble, and her path is leading somewhere dark, unless she does something drastic to change course. It seems to me that many don't want to look seriously at the permanent language she uses, at her conscious understanding and acceptance of her lot (regardless of what's going on subconsciously), at her increasing trust and acceptance of Littlefinger.

No offence, but do you believe you're somehow bringing some new light to the discussions that have taken place in this thread and elsewhere? We've noted many times that Sansa is on a moral precipice, and that she needs to escape LF's corrupting influence. What I'm disputing is your assertion that she's somehow broken or resigned and humbled. It's a deliberate misreading with next to nothing to validate it textually. What we see is a young girl trying her best to survive in dangerous times. She's not diminished or worn down, but she does need to keep certain memories buried within her for the time being. Those memories keep surfacing though, both consciously and unconsciously. Furthermore, the prevailing theme in her arc is the quest for agency. We realise that this agency is being threatened by LF, and that Sansa is going to have to realise that survival is not enough, particularly now when LF is threatening to sacrifice an innocent in SR. We expect to see Sansa oppose his plans in some manner, and to begin the other stage of her development. We definitely do not believe that "Sansa Stark" is going to be gone for long or that she even really ever left. If you are looking for a character who's largely beaten down and resigned to their fate, I would suggest you look to someone like Jeyne Poole, not Sansa, and even Jeyne may surprise us yet.

Many seem to want to stop the clock at "Lies and arbour gold" and act as if Sansa's development stops then and there, but she continues to develop and change after that and go deeper and deeper into Alayne Stone, as far as I can tell. The same thing seems to be happening with Arya, and with Bran and his visions. I don't know that any of them can make it out, and I don't see any conscious indication from any of them at this juncture that they ever intend to: Arya's continuing her training and merrily murdering people, Bran's lost in his visions and detached from Meera and Jojen, and Sansa's given up on "Sansa" forever.

She's goes deeper into Alayne Stone because that's what has to happen, but she's not Alayne Stone in her heart. That's what LF wanted, but the heart belongs to Sansa. She doesn't dwell on her heart and her heart's desires, but that doesn't mean it has stopped beating now does it?

Sansa hasn't really been faced with a choice of doing something truly horrible or dying, though. She didn't have to decide whether to go along with the Joffrey murder plot. She didn't have to decide whether she wanted to frame Tyrion (it was too late). She's had her own kind of "plot armour" (sin armour, I guess) in that respect. The worst thing she's done (frame Marillion for murder) is excusable in part, since hey, he was willing to help kill her, but she still did it. However, winter is coming, which means her "sin armour" might not hold up. She might be faced very soon with a choice between doing something horrible or dying.

And she's now been faced with that awful choice now hasn't she? Go along with SR's death and supposedly you'll get Winterfell again and be the Lady of the Vale.

Her "goodness" might not withstand a choice between doing or accepting something horrible (the murder of an innocent child) or dying, just as Brienne couldn't withstand Stoneheart's horrible ultimatum. But really, Sansa's also shown herself willing to throw others under the bus for her own benefit (Arya, Ned, Marillion, etc.), more than once. Sometimes it was to survive, sometimes it was just to get what she wanted. It doesn't mean she's a traitor or a kinslayer by association or irredeemable or no better than a Lannister or any of that rot, but she's still capable of it. She's done the opposite (helping Dontos, informing Margaery, although they certainly had to pry it out of her), but the foundation is there for her losing her goodness, since her "goodness" seems to be somewhat flexible to begin with.

LOL.

[brashcandy]

Her indifference to administering Sweetrobin dangerous medicine, even after Colemon tells her it's dangerous, is also a disturbing sign. True, Sweetrobin's seizures are a valid concern and Sweetrobin's safety will be academic if he shakes himself off a cliff, but Sansa's casual attitude, compared to Colemon's legitimate fears, was downright creepy. And this is, again, Sansa's last chapter in AFFC, the last glimpse we get of her, and the girl we see is not particularly compassionate.

Being overly compassionate can get you killed in the game of thrones. Sansa made a calculated risk and knew that it was imperative to get SR down the Mountain with the least trouble possible. She now knows that LF doesn't simply intend to medicate the boy, but to actually kill him. I have to say, I think Martin's portrayal of this scene with the maester was quite realistic. We know Sansa hasn't lost her kindness, but she's in charge of running the household and getting everyone off safely to the Gates; she can't afford to let SR have a terrible attack on the way down, but that doesn't mean she's willing to see him die so she can live. She's learning to harden her heart, but she's no where close to being a monster.

[Daidalos]

Sometimes it was to survive, sometimes it was just to get what she wanted; I'm not like most Sansa fans, in that I take a very dim view of her actions in AGOT with the Lady/Arya fiasco and with running to Cersei. It doesn't mean she's a traitor or a kinslayer by association or irredeemable or no better than a Lannister or any of that rot, but she's still capable of it. She's done the opposite (helping Dontos, informing Margaery, although they certainly had to pry it out of her), but the foundation is there for her losing her goodness, since her "goodness" seems to be somewhat malleable to begin with.

Now, I don't think that Sansa is perfectly moral*, but I don't understand how she can be so maligned for the "Lady/Arya fiasco" and for her "running to Cersei." Sansa had no malicious intent, none, when doing the latter, and as for the former, it would be very unfair to judge an eleven year old child because she wasn't perfectly honest when placed in a damned scary situation. Children lie all the time--even the "good" ones do--especially when telling the truth would be uncomfortable, as it most certainly would be were she to speak ill of the boy-prince that she was in love with in front of the king and queen. Even so, terrified as she must have been, her lie was as mild as it could possibly be. I understand why she temporized in that situation, and I don't count it as a mark against her, considering her age, naiveté, and sense of conflicting loyalties.

After and during most of GoT, Sansa has consistently exhibited great empathy, and maintained it through very traumatic times. LF's tutelage has skewed her somewhat, allowing her to convince herself to believe certain things and thus enabling her to prevaricate and dissemble to greater effect, but he hasn't corrupted her yet. Considering what she's been through, Sansa's shown herself to be unusually compassionate. Certainly she might be capable of great (even terrible) deceit, but it would mean a big and surprising shift in her personality if she proved so capable. I wouldn't necessarily be averse to such a development, but I wouldn't expect it, and I definitely wouldn't take the aforementioned events in GoT as evidence of Sansa's corruptibility.

*Well, by modern standards; in Westeros she's among the best of the bunch.

[Newstar]

She now knows that LF doesn't simply intend to medicate the boy, but to actually kill him.

Does she? Sansa's shown herself conveniently dense when the plot required it.

You can continue to think that Sansa is barely hanging on by a thread.

"The day is done, and so was Sansa." "I am a bastard now, just like him." "It does not matter." "There is only Alayne Stone." "Alayne had no brothers." "Bastard brave." "Loras Tyrell would never kiss Alayne Stone. She had been born on the wrong side of the blanket." And so on. And so on. I'm equally unlikely to convince you, so this seems like an "agree to disagree."

We've noted many times that Sansa is on a moral precipice, and that she needs to escape LF's corrupting influence.

You specifically asked whether I thought that Martin would really allow Sansa to succumb to LF's corrupting influence and whether I thought her character development would really tend in that direction, and I laid out exactly why I thought it was plausible that that would happen and provided textual support for same. (I also questioned that Sansa's "goodness" was some incorruptible, inflexible quality and that she's never compromised it. Not true.)

What I'm disputing is your assertion that she's somehow broken or resigned and humbled. It's a deliberate misreading with next to nothing to validate it textually.

Oh, so now it's not nothing, it's next to nothing! Now we're getting somewhere! LOL

I've laid out the textual foundation, so rather than just regurgitate that, since you don't seem to accept that it's textual for whatever reason despite all my quotes to the contrary, I'll talk a bit about the process of Sansa being broken down, resigned and humbled as of the end of AFFC. Sansa seems to go from a starting point with her hopes, ideals, dreams, ambitions, through a progression, and she definitely winds up humbled and broken down as a result. I'll sort of try to show the progression:

Social class: 1) I am aware of and proud of my superior social class (Jon Snow is jealous of Joffrey because Jon Snow's only a bastard), 2) It is important that people respect the differences between social classes and I remember the difference between classes, I also view those distinctions as important and consider it inappropriate to associate with inferior classes (unlike Arya), 3) Social class is no predictor of worth (Joffrey, Cersei, etc.), 4) I agree to masquerade as a bastard, 5) I reject my bastard identity and a proposed marriage to Sweetrobin, I am a woman wed and heir to Winterfell, 6) I know better than to try to resist my bastard identity and know that it's safer to pretend to be a bastard, 7) I consider myself fully a bastard and not a noblewoman and have mentally accepted that I am a bastard and no better than Jon Snow, 8) I associate with all kinds of people, since I am no better than they are and I take no pride in my superior birth, despite the truth of it.

Marriage: 1) I want to marry a handsome man befitting my station who loves me and whom I love, namely Joffrey, and be Queen, 2) I do not want to marry Joffrey, but I still want to marry a handsome high lord befitting my station whom I love, 3) I don't want to marry right away, but if I have to marry now, I want to marry Loras Tyrell, who's an able-bodied, handsome man befitting my station and whom I adore, 4) I want to marry a cripple who might be ugly even if he doesn't love me and he only wants me for my claim, 5) I don't want to be married to a Lannister and especially not Tyrion, but I'll still go through with it, 6) Thank God that marriage is over, screw that noise, 7) I'd rather be married to Tyrion again, a hideous Lannister I didn't love, than to Sweetrobin, 8) I will never marry Sweetrobin even if they try to force me, ever, screw that, 9) I don't want to be married for my claim and no one will ever marry me for love, 10) I don't want to be married and I may never want to get remarried to anyone, but Petyr has a marriage contract in mind for me, so that's probably happening. Welp.

Ambition: 1) I want to be Joffrey's Queen and have his beautiful babies, 2) I don't want to be Joffrey's Queen, but I still want the high lord, husband and babies assuming I live that long, 3) I want to comply with the escape plan and get out of King's Landing and go home and be with my family again, 4) If I can't go home, I'll settle for Highgarden, a high lord and babies and lots of puppies (I'm wiilling to let the handsome part slide), 5) I want to escape King's Landing and go home, even though my entire family has been wiped out, 6) I can't go home since Winterfell is a burnt-out shell, so I'll settle for the Fingers since I'm going there anyway, 7) I may as well get used to the idea of Sweetrobin as a husband, 8) Ugh, screw that, 9) I want to survive first and foremost and that's pretty much the extent of it, so I'll make the most my situation and go along with it, 10) I'll do as Littlefinger suggests since he's my only friend in the world and not think too far beyond that, 11) I don't want anything beyond what Littlefinger wants me to do and I've completely given up on any hope of living any other life than this one, 12) [iNSERT LIKELY COMPLIANCE WITH LITTLEFINGER SCHEME HERE].

Littlefinger: 1) Ugh, this dude is creepy and undresses me with his eyes and is not to be trusted, 2) Why is he kissing me? Screw that, I'm telling Lysa, 3) Whew! Littlefinger saved my bacon, better go along with him for now no matter how shady he is, 4) Littlefinger has two personas, and one of them is warm and funny and lovely, 5) I'll just go along with this Alayne shtick and tell him what he wants to hear, since Petyr's my only true friend, 6) Petyr is smart and clever and I pretty much trust him implicitly, I treat him as something between a friend/father/husband figure, I blush when he kisses me, and I show and feel no reaction to his increasingly creepy behaviour.

Sweetrobin: 1) Ugh, I can't stand this kid, he's a brat and I react to his tantrums with (justified) anger, 2) He's not so bad, but I'd never want to marry him and I'm telling Lysa right now, 3) So now I'm Sweetrobin's mother figure, 4) I'm his full-time caretaker and I put up with his ridiculous, petulant behaviour without comment or complaint.

Ideals (this one would get pretty long, but here's the gist of it): 1) Everything's going to be awesome, just like a song, (....) 2) It's all lies, forever and ever.

And so on, and so on. There's a pretty clear progression showing how Sansa gets ground down by circumstances and by people, to accept things she hated or once disdained, and it doesn't seem to me like a sign of maturity, just resignation and acceptance, as I've been saying.

The thing is that Sansa is not wrong to wants the things she wants (1). Shes not wrong to want marriage to a handsome man she loves. She's not wrong to understand that social class difference is meaningful and important. She's not wrong to find Sweetrobin appalling and react to his behaviour with anger. She's not wrong to have dreams, to be optimistic, to have romantic notions. And yet throughout the books, these are ripped away from her. Since a lot of readers hate the snobbish, spoiled, starry-eyed Sansa they see in AGOT, they love to see her dreams crushed and to see her ground into the dirt and beaten into submission, forced to masquerade as a bastard when she never let Jon Snow forget he was a bastard, etc. etc., but the resignation and acceptance of her fate I see in that last chapter doesn't inspire any joy or satisfaction in me.

What we see is a young girl trying her best to survive in dangerous times. She's not diminished or worn down, but she does need to keep certain memories buried within her for the time being.

The quotes in that last chapter use the words "never" and "ever" a heck of a lot. There's no indication it's for the time being (just as with Arya's FM training).

Furthermore, the prevailing theme in her arc is the quest for agency.

I disagree with this, actually--since the prevailing theme I see in the books, especially where female characters are involved, is "Shut up, do your duty, and be grateful for your lot in life without wishing or grasping for anything more, or else you'll cause all kinds of trouble, suffer horribly, and likely die a horrible death"---but that's a whole other ball of wax. The Feminine Mystique this ain't.

Sansa is going to have to realise that survival is not enough, particularly now when LF is threatening to sacrifice an innocent in SR.

I don't know that LF will let her in on it until after the fact or that she has realized or will realize it in time. Sansa's smart, but GRRM makes her stupid when he needs to.

[jarl the climber]

Being overly compassionate can get you killed in the game of thrones. Sansa made a calculated risk and knew that it was imperative to get SR down the Mountain with the least trouble possible. She now knows that LF doesn't simply intend to medicate the boy, but to actually kill him. I have to say, I think Martin's portrayal of this scene with the maester was quite realistic. We know Sansa hasn't lost her kindness, but she's in charge of running the household and getting everyone off safely to the Gates; she can't afford to let SR have a terrible attack on the way down, but that doesn't mean she's willing to see him die so she can live. She's learning to harden her heart, but she's no where close to being a monster.

Actually the Maester said he could sedate him with milk of the poppy and tie him to a mule nor did she have to allow the maester to give him more for the feast that was to occur after they made it down. She thought to herself that the people must not know the true extent of Roberts fraility and cowardice and that her and her Farthers needs were more important than Roberts. All though at this point I don't think she completly understands the long term effects of the sweetsleep.

[Aleenys]

Just wanted to drop in and add my thoughts on the discussion in light of Newstar's posts. I've been reading these threads and for some time and appreciate the contributions and determination of everyone in this thread. I've learned a lot new things and they enriched my understanding of Sansa and many characters she had interactions with so far. But I have to agree with some of Newstar's point about Sansa's current situation and her development may not be so bright and optimistic as many people believe.

I agree with Elba's glass analogy that there are two ways to look at her situation at the moment, the half-full glass or the half-empty glass. Sansa's last AFFC chapter is written in such a way that it is difficult to look over some things. She's not depressed, nor she's defeated, but she's without hope and dreams for the future and drifting further away from her identity in comparison to her ASoS self. There seems to be a lot of change in terms of her character after the Winterfell Castle scene, her traumatic experience at the Moon Door and her last meeting with Littlefinger. Sure as many people said, Sansa Stark is peeking through at some moments to remind her of her roots and true self, but as evidence can be found of her sense of self so can evidence be found, read and interpreted suggesting otherwise.

My point is neither interpretation is incorrect. That's probably why her chapter ends in such a cliffhanger state. Such differing opinions also point to the fact George has done a good job establishing her story. Otherwise there couldn't be so many people with so much differing opinions. There are so many contradictions, nuances, small details in her last chapter that it can be read in many ways. I don't have the books with me at the moment so if I'm remembering correct, there is a line where Sansa goes to Sweetrobin's room and comments on his looks, thinking to herself "He liked being complimented." These are small things that can be read as Sansa not caring so much for Sweetrobin but playing to his interests, as LF is teaching her manipulation. There's also the fact that during many of their talks Sansa doesn't think he's sweet or lovable, sometimes even getting frustrated at him (not blaming her on that one). There's one line I remember about him Sansa thought "She felt sorry for her little cousin sometimes" but that was during ASoS if I'm correct. There's also the fact that she's a bit uncaring about his health in her talk with Colemon. All the time thinking "Father and I have other concerns".

Your interpretation may suggest that she's not giving it much thought about the medicine and adapting to her role as a bastard, but it also can be quite easily argued to the contrary. All I'm saying is these are not simple things to be overlooked, especially because they are on the last chapter of her story and she indeed is starting to show signs of moral greyness already. To say it is incorrect reading or false interpretation is being quite optimistic. If she was quite sure of her wishes and wasn't showing signs of change, I'd suggest taking a closer look at her last conversation with LF. The last time he kissed her we only get to know that "she blushed". Nothing else. Why isn't there a line saying "She felt nauseous." or "She wanted to break the kiss, but knew better not to." I'd really say these are things to take into consideration. She's aware of LF's deviousness yes, but there's nothing suggesting that she might risk going against whatever he tells him to do. She doesn't dislike him, nor does she want to kill him (unless that changes before whatever LF plans comes into fruition).

There's also the fact Sansa can surprise us with her thought process. Initially, Sansa was afraid of Sandor and didn't like him surprising her & grabbing her wrist etc. But towards the end of Clash we know that she believes she would rather have him in Maegor's Holdfast instead of Ser Ilyn and believes he would never let any harm come to her. Then when he deserts, she misses him and wishes he was near. He saved her many times, but he also often threatened her and put a sword and a knife at her throat. Now I know many people like them as a couple (me as well, to an extent) but how can someone romanticize a person who has done that to you? Yeah, it's good to read in a fiction book but in real life that's not normal and scary to some. Anyways why I brought this example up, is to compare that to Littlefinger. She is initially bothered by his gaze and kisses and at her last conversation with LF (It's the last chapter that's showing some development as Newstar says), strangely, she is not repugnant to that "in her thoughts." She just blushes. Why did GRRM write it that way I wonder? Now, do I want anything further happening between Sansa and LF besides what is happening already? Hell no. Do I think it will surprise me if something were to happen in accordance with the text we have so far? Again No.

I gave all these examples because I often see they are being overlooked and always Sansa's positiveness is mentioned in her chapter while ignoring these kinds of developments. It is as if there's no question Sansa can do something unreliable or surprising again. Or maybe because people don't want think it that way, but it's being argued that "It's not supported by the text" that makes me look at her chapters in different ways.

Long story short, I'd say there's equal chances of Sansa having to endure more unfair treatment and having to take on a moral gray stance for while as there is for her to finally snap and take matters into her own hands. Many people are suggesting the latter, but that may come out worse in the long term. If she creates a plan without falling into desperation and going "No thanks I'm out of here." or doing something rash, meaning she willingly outsmarts LF in a way he never thought possible (maybe even she) it will make a more fulfilling story.

But there's also the fact that George repeatedly said that he hates predictability in a story. From my gatherings on the forums, most people have 2 common opinions on Sansa's future "The student will outstmart the master" or "The Shining Knight will rescue the damsel". I'd say there's an equal chance neither of these are going to happen and it will be a shock to many people, but it will make an exciting and unpredictable story. Martin probably will twist both of these tropes as he has been known to do many times. Either way, it's fun to try to figure out these things. I want to be surprised (in a good way, if possible).

I like my opinions being challenged. Blindly following a belief doesn't help anyone, especially as George said the story and the characters can be interpreted in many different ways and the most important thing to write about is "The human heart in conflict with itself." So Newstar, thanks for your fresh interpretation to her story, really challenges people to look at the story in a different way and I often found myself nodding to both your posts and responses by the contributors of PtP threads.

Needless to say, Sansa is one of my favourite characters and of course, as everyone else here I want a good ending and a good future for her. But at the same time I won't illusion myself into thinking "She will clearly do this because it goes against her story otherwise." Whatever George plans to write for her, I'm sure it will make sense. I just don't want to end up disillusioned Sansa-style when the next book comes out like a Sweet Summer Child. I don't want her to fall into darkness, but I will not ignore the signs in the text for it if I want to understand her correctly. I will support her in her endeavors until we see her thoughts suggesting otherwise (one of my secret of hopes of her being a queen and helping her people until she clearly rejects anything to do with thrones or power games). Sansa's story can take many turns at this point and I can't wait for the next book.

Well, that's enough rambling I think. Just wanted to get this off my chest while Sansa's future storyline discussion was in place. :)

[brashcandy]

<<snip>>

I don't even know what to say to this. What you've just done is to construct Sansa's development as some free fall into defeat, and completely ignored the true relevance of her maturity and growth and her triumph over adversity. I'll make this short:

1. Social class: What Sansa learns is that nobles can be just as corrupt and predatory as anyone else, and that one's social class does not determine the content of one's character.

2. Marriage: She realises that women in her position are often preyed upon because of their status and claims. Whether it's a beautiful man or an ugly man, people can have hidden agendas, and she wants to be loved for herself and to be able to give her love freely in return.

3. Ambition: Sansa has never been truly ambitious when it comes to power. She wanted to be Queen, but she had a very naive concept of what that meant, and related her role more as a wife and mother. Over time, we've seen Sansa displaying queenly behaviour quite naturally, and she may one day assume a prominent public role, but until then, the only thing she's wanted was peace and security and the comfort of home.

4. Littlefinger: She would have left if she could, but has no one else whom she can trust at the moment. She was focused on surviving and knew she had to play LF's game for a while in order to guarantee this.

5. Accepts being a mother to SR because it's really the decent and necessary thing to do. She learns how to manage his tantrums and is actually beginning to have a positive effect.

The thing is that Sansa is not wrong to wants the things she wants (1). Shes not wrong to want marriage to a handsome man she loves.

Of course she's not wrong. I don't think Sansa thinks she was wrong either. But right now her thoughts are with someone she has an actual connection with, and she's not concerned with looks - either ugly or good looking. She knows that good looking men are not any better in terms of character, that's all. She realises that no Tyrell would talk to a bastard, and that's just plain old common sense. She's not bitter about it.

She's not wrong to understand that social class difference is meaningful and important.

Well this I'd like to hear. How exactly is it meaningful and important? Sure, it's the way Sansa's society is structured and she's well aware that her noble status affords certain privileges, but she's beginning to see that these things do not mean much at the end of the day. One can be bastard brave, and one can have the same dreams and hopes as a high ranking lord or lady for love and happiness. When she talks to Lothor Brune, he tells her how his family rejected him, but we know Sansa has thoughts of his loyalty and essential goodness. She's being faced with these examples over and over again.

She's not wrong to find Sweetrobin appalling and react to his behaviour with anger.

LOL. So basically, you'd like it if Sansa was to say "fuck SR, I'm not taking on his problems!" Acting as a mother to the boy in the best way she can is a good thing. He may be difficult and a brat, but he doesn't deserve to be deserted. And we've seen her getting angry with him, but what good will it do in the long run?

She's not wrong to have dreams, to be optimistic, to have romantic notions. And yet throughout the books, these are ripped away from her.

Good lord, what is this? Sansa has suffered just like nearly every other person in the books. Her dreams haven't been ripped away so much as she's been made to see a lot of those dreams for what they were, rethink the nature of them, and formulate new ones that might lead to more fulfillment in the long run.

Since a lot of readers hate the snobbish, spoiled, starry-eyed Sansa they see in AGOT, they love to see her dreams crushed and to see her ground into the dirt and beaten into submission, forced to masquerade as a bastard when she never let Jon Snow forget he was a bastard, etc. etc., but the resignation and acceptance of her fate I see in that last chapter doesn't inspire any joy or satisfaction in me.

Yeah and those readers are ridiculous, but what excuse can one find for those who are supposedly "Sansa fans" and choose to read her development as a series of humiliations? When Sansa talks of being a bastard like Jon Snow, it's a moment of positive identification. Sansa could have very well been forced to pretend to be a bastard and still have no sympathy or understanding towards Jon Snow.

I disagree with this, actually--since the prevailing message I see in the books, especially where female characters are involved, is "Shut up and be grateful for your lot in life without wishing or grasping for anything more unless it's explicitly approved by your patriarch, or else you'll cause all kinds of trouble, suffer horribly, and likely die a horrible death"---but that's a whole other ball of wax. The Feminine Mystique this ain't.

Well I'd suggest you look again. I always hear this idea that love affairs are disastrous, but people seem to forget that the love affair wasn't what started the problem in these relationships. It's the negation of female desire and the idea that marriage is a duty where one has to fulfil the will of a patriarch. What caused the disaster of the W5K was not Lysa and Littlefinger, but Lysa and Jon Arryn and the frustrations that built up over time in that marriage. Lyanna Stark was expected to marry a whoring charmer like Robert Baratheon and instead as we suspect rebelled against this and chose Rhaegar. The problem is not romantic love, but the requirement of women (and men) to ignore their wants and needs within loveless, abusive marriages. So while this isn't some feminist manifesto, you can bet that there are very pertinent issues relating to female desire and autonomy which the author is highlighting and seemingly on the way to validating via this new generation of women.