From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XI

[Newstar]

What you've just done is to construct Sansa's development as some free fall into defeat, and completely ignored the true relevance of her maturity and growth and her triumph over adversity.

It doesn't look like maturity or growth from where I'm standing. It looks like Sansa's self being shredded, for the reasons I outlined at some length, just as Bran and Arya's are being shredded. Where's the triumph? In staying alive? What's survival worth if you lose everything you ever were or ever valued--even your very self--in the process? GRRM is asking us this very question. At least Bran is gaining something worthwhile. What's Sansa gaining? All the things which made Sansa herself are being carved away, and she's doing a lot of the carving these days herself. What's left looks a lot like Sansa, walks like Sansa, talks like Sansa, and even thinks occasionally of things Sansa would have thought of, but it isn't Sansa. It's Alayne. It's Littlefinger's creation. Sansa might reappear, she might not. I think she can turn it around, but I see very little basis in the text for this undiluted optimism that a lot of Sansa fans seem to show.

<snip>

These areas of her life, as you've described, aren't really lessons, though. I mean, you can look at them that way if you wish--many readers do--but I don't view them that way. It's how Sansa starts off with something she feels and is right to feel and has it taken away from her to the point where she glumly or even happily accepts something she once properly violently rejected (and the same thing with things she once wanted). It's an erosion of her standards, her expectations, her dreams, her hopes, her values, her compassion, her gentleness, her romanticism, quite possibly her morals...everything that makes Sansa herself. It's not triumphant, it's grim and it's sad.

As for the other items in your list, they're not tied to her changing attitudes/standards over the course of the series, which is what I was getting at. You know what Sansa's arc reminds me of? That bit from the X-Files episode The Simpsons with Moe and the lie detector. It keeps detecting lies, so he keeps changing his story as to where he was when X, Y and Z happened. He starts off sounding very cool, but he gets worn down by successive lie detections, continually downgrading the coolness of his story until he gets a "true" bing (which is something like staying at home ogling the ladies in the Sears catalogue). What's Sansa's final "bing" going to be? Whatever it is, it will be something that would have horrified AGOT!Sansa, and it will be something that ADOS!Sansa will be happy with, or even grateful for.

I understand why many want to have a positive viewpoint of Sansa's arc and want to skip over the disturbing and unpleasant overtones in Sansa's arc and the disquieting hints as to her potential future actions, but it's important to take the good with the bad, and are we agreed at least that there is a lot of "bad" in what is happening to Sansa's soul and what may happen to Sansa's soul? Can we agree that there is some bad, creepy stuff going on with Sansa that she may not be able to handle on her own without rushing to classify her traumas and losses as useful important life lessons and her continually giving up more and more of her hopes/dreams/ambitions/feelings/self in favour of resignation and acceptance as some form of laudable growth or maturity?

I see the same Pollyanna-type interpretations of Arya's arc--which I also disagree with--but this extremely optimistic interpretation of where Sansa's currently at totally baffles me. It seems to border on denial, given the Bran/Arya/Sansa parallels and what she's up to in the last chapter of AFFC (bullying Colemon into giving Sweetrobin dangerous medicine despite being told it's dangerous, mentally relegating Sansa to the past tense, blushing when Littlefinger kisses her, and so on).

I always hear this idea that love affairs are disastrous, but people seem to forget that the love affair wasn't what started the problem in these relationships.

They are treated as disastrous in the books, particularly when they result in a character neglecting his or her (mostly her) duty in favour of same. Barristan goes on about this in ADWD: "Rhaegar loved Lyanna, etc. etc. etc." From a modern perspective, I'd never argue that following the dictates of your love life instead of your duty was invariably a bad idea, and yet that's exactly how it's treated in the books, especially for women. In fact, insofar as the books seem to have a moral law apart from the usual ones, it's "Choose Duty Over Love." Problems arise when characters have conflicting duties (as Jaime pointed out), or duties that aren't easily identifiable, but that seems to be the big one. Characters who violate this law pay so, so dearly. Sansa's big "sins" in AGOT are both violations of this rule: choosing her love over her duty to her family. Big, big, big mistake.

It's the negation of female desire and the idea that marriage is a duty where one has to fulfil the will of a patriarch. What caused the disaster of the W5K was not Lysa and Littlefinger, but Lysa and Jon Arryn and the frustrations that built up over time in that marriage.

In the books, it's Lysa being an unfaithful, insane villainess and Littlefinger being the supervillain of Westeros who caused disaster. Jon Arryn is treated as the innocent old dude, not the marriage. It is Lysa's love for Littlefinger and her neglect of her duty to Jon Arryn which leads to disaster. Lysa is treated as the villainess, and her love for Littlefinger is treated in the text as risible. Not saying it should be, but that's how the books are written. It seems quite clear to me that GRRM is not interested in telling stories about the plight of downtrodden Westeros women bravely fighting off loveless marriages; if he were, Cersei, who was trapped in an abusive marriage and who has actively fought against societal expectations for women, would not be the most villainous female character in the books by a country mile. From what I can tell, we're not supposed to feel bad for Lysa, as sad as her story is. We're not supposed to view the marriage as the problem. Lysa is a comically evil figure and we are supposed to find her repulsive and loathe her actions and her choices, even as justifiable as they might objectively seem given her sad history. I get the sense that we're supposed to cheer when Littlefinger shoves her out the Moon Door, as indeed many do. The actions which specifically trigger Lysa's death are also an example of her choosing her crazed, obsessive love for Littlefinger over her duty to Sansa as her aunt.

Lyanna Stark was expected to marry a whoring charmer like Robert Baratheon and instead as we suspect rebelled against this and chose Rhaegar.

And this was a horrific decision which caused misery and strife. Given how Robert Baratheon mooned after his intended after her death, we'll never know how things would have otherwise turned out. Lyanna may have said Robert would never keep to one bed, but would she have been right? It is safe to say that her rejection of love in favour of duty was the problem, not the arranged marriage. Kevan seems to think that if the Rhaegar/Cersei match had gone through, Rhaegar wouldn't have looked twice at Lyanna and the whole mess could have been avoided. I don't know how I feel about that, given that it seems to blame Elia for not being hot enough, but Rhaegar submitting to an arranged marriage isn't treated as the problem. As Barristan says, "Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and thousands (?) died," etc. etc.

The problem is not romantic love, but the requirement of women (and men) to ignore their wants and needs within loveless, abusive marriages.

Again, maybe ideally, but that's not how it's treated in the text. Women who honour their wants and needs and reject their arranged marriages are treated as selfish, immoral and even evil. The worst female characters we've come across are both adulteresses, but the text doesn't seem to treat the marriages as the problem. Indeed, the narrative seems to be "they're crazy, and their adulterous actions are not reflective of the unfair strictures of an arranged marriage, but of their selfishness and moral bankruptcy."

[brashcandy]

It doesn't look like maturity or growth from where I'm standing. It looks like Sansa's self being shredded, for the reasons I outlined at some length, just as Bran and Arya's are being shredded. Where's the triumph? In staying alive? What's survival worth if you lose everything you are--even your very self--in the process? GRRM is asking us this very question. At least Bran is gaining something worthwhile. What's Sansa gaining? Sansa's self is being carved away. What's left looks a lot like Sansa and even thinks occasionally of things Sansa would have thought of, but it isn't Sansa. It's Alayne. It's Littlefinger's creation. Sansa might reappear, she might not. I think she can turn it around, but I see very little basis in the text for this undiluted optimism that a lot of Sansa fans seem to show.

What I consider a triumph for Sansa is that she's gotten through some terrible experiences without ever losing that sense of self and that compassion and empathy that defines her character. She's never broken, not in her marriage to Tyrion, not when Joffrey had her beaten daily and I don't expect we'll see it happen with LF. Being committed to hiding one's identity does not mean that one has lost one's sense of self. Whether or not Sansa ever reclaims the Stark name, the image of herself as "bastard brave" tells me all I need to know about her mental health and enduring spirit; and her ability to still relate to others, and actually laugh and enjoy sharing stories, reveal that she still has hope, regardless of how bleak things might seem. Sansa's self has not been shredded, and that applies to Bran and Arya as well. The Stark children have all suffered, experienced harsh lessons, and known loss, but haven't lost the core of themselves. When I'm analysing Sansa's arc, I look at the full picture of what Martin is showing us. He began by detailing just what was wrong with this society and gradually revealing what needed to change about it. I see all the Stark children as having some vital role to play in that change, and Sansa in particular with the qualities she's shown and her ability to reach out to those less fortunate than herself. LF undoubtedly represents the darkest force in her life at this point, but when you consider that Sansa remains fundamentally caring and thoughtful, added to what she's already experienced and desires, I think there's every reason to be optimistic that she won't be suffering much longer under his influence or authority.

These areas of her life, as you've described, aren't really lessons, though. I mean, you can look at them that way if you wish--many readers do--but I don't view them that way. It's how Sansa starts off with something she feels and is right to feel and has it taken away from her to the point where she glumly or even happiliy accepts something she once violently rejected (and the same thing with things she once wanted). It's not triumphant, it's grim and it's sad.

Of course they are lessons. Are you trying to claim that learning to see past pomp and pageantry isn't a lesson, or that she didn't learn something valuable when Sandor tells her that knights are for killing, or when she rejects Septa Mordane's teaching that all men are beautiful? You honestly think that it makes sense to construe those lessons as somehow taking away Sansa's right to feel something, or that now she's now glumly accepting these things. There are lots of things in life we start out violently rejecting, but we sometimes come to see the error of our ways. I would be more concerned if Sansa started to think like Cersei Lannister and view people as mere pawns in a game.

As for the other items in your list, they're not tied to her changing attitudes/standards over the course of the series, which is what I was getting at. You know what Sansa's arc reminds me of? That bit from the X-Files episode The Simpsons with Moe and the lie detector. It keeps detecting lies, so he keeps changing his story as to where he was when X, Y and Z happened. He starts off sounding very cool, but he gets worn down by successive lie detections, continually downgrading the coolness of his story until he gets a "true" bing (which is something like staying at home ogling the ladies in the Sears catalogue). What's Sansa's final "bing" going to be?

Oh you've managed to communicate your nihilistic vision of Sansa's arc very well, I just don't think it holds any water. But you're welcome to it by all means and this will be my last reply to you concerning how you view her development.

I understand why many want to have a positive viewpoint of Sansa's arc and want to skip over the disturbing and unpleasant overtones in Sansa's arc and the disquieting hints as to her potential future actions, but it's important to take the good with the bad, and are we agreed at least that there is a lot of "bad" in what is happening to Sansa's soul and what may happen to Sansa's soul? Can we agree that there is some bad, creepy stuff going on with Sansa that she may not be able to handle on her own without rushing to classify her traumas and losses as the stuff important life lessons and her continually giving up more and more of her hopes/dreams/ambitions/feelings in favour of resignation and acceptance as some laudable growth or maturity?

No, you see, this isn't about "wanting" to have a positive viewpoint about Sansa's arc at all. We have all hashed out these very same concerns about her relationship with LF and her treatment of SR, but we've never seen Sansa as being dead on the inside, and humbled to the point of lacking all resistance. That simply does no justice to the kind of character Martin has created and to the fighting spirit he's repeatedly shown throughout the four books. My positive reading of Sansa is based on Sansa and what we know of her, just as I can have a fairly negative reading of Tyrion based on what we know of him.

I see the same Pollyanna-type interpretations of Arya's arc--which I also disagree with--but this extremely optimistic interpretation of Sansa totally baffles me. It seems to border on denial, given the Bran/Arya/Sansa parallels and what she's up to in the last chapter of AFFC (bullying Colemon into giving Sweetrobin dangerous medicine despite being told it's dangerous, mentally relegating Sansa to the past tense, blushing when Littlefinger kisses her, and so on).

Again, that's how you choose to interpret those scenes. When Sansa blushes as LF kisses her, we should know that this isn't a sign of pleasure but an involuntary reaction to someone overstepping their boundaries and placing her in an uncomfortable position. Every time something happens to a character Martin is not going to deign to give us a clear cut response. Anyways, we're not likely to agree on this topic, ever, so that's that.

[brashcandy]

They are treated as disastrous in the books, particularly when they result in a character neglecting his or her (mostly her) duty in favour of same. Barristan goes on about this in ADWD: "Rhaegar loved Lyanna, etc. etc. etc." From a modern perspective, I'd never argue that following the dictates of your love life instead of your duty was invariably a bad idea, and yet that's exactly how it's treated in the books, especially for women. In fact, insofar as the books seem to have a moral law apart from the usual ones, it's "Choose Duty Over Love." Problems arise when characters have conflicting duties (as Jaime pointed out), or duties that aren't easily identifiable, but that seems to be the big one. Characters who violate this law pay so, so dearly. Sansa's big "sins" in AGOT are both violations of this rule: choosing her love over her duty to her family. Big, big, big mistake.

Sigh. No. Sansa's big mistake was in having the wrong impression about her betrothed and his mother. Had Cersei and Joffrey been decent people she wouldn't have even needed to make the choice in the first place since the engagement would not have been called off. This is what I'm talking about with blaming the effect and not the cause. The problem was not Sansa's "lack of duty" since one could argue she had a duty to the family her parents had selected for her; it's that she's too young and naive, and kept in the dark about these people. It's laughable to suggest that these books advocate choosing duty over love. What Martin seems to be showing is that relationships where people are wholly incompatible and/or naive and inexperienced will be destined to fail. Arranged marriages can work, just as love affairs can work, but they're not going to if the people have their heads in the clouds, or have been forced to accept a partner they do not want and cannot get along with for whatever reason. "Duty" should never be the starting point for any relationship, arranged or otherwise.

In the books, it's Lysa being an unfaithful, insane villainess and Littlefinger being the supervillain of Westeros who caused disaster. Jon Arryn is treated as the innocent old dude, not the marriage.

And how pray tell did Lysa turn into this insane villainess in the first place? It was because of what Hoster did to her and what she suffered being married to Jon Arryn. And I don't know how innocent Jon is portrayed at all. Sure he was the victim, but we simply aren't told much about him outside of his enabling of Robert B.

It is Lysa's love for Littlefinger and her neglect of her duty to Jon Arryn which leads to disaster.

Had Lysa not been put in the position to be dutiful to a fossil then she wouldn't have had the compulsion to be treacherous now would she?

Lysa is treated as the villainess, and her love for Littlefinger is treated in the text as risible. Not saying it should be, but that's how the books are written. It seems quite clear to me that GRRM is not interested in telling stories about the plight of downtrodden Westeros women bravely fighting off loveless marriages;

I think GRRM does give us reasons to view Lysa sympathetically, even if he doesn't, but anyways, he's telling a lot of stories in this tale, and it does include these women, considering that the whole mess begins because they are trapped in these marriages.

if he were, Cersei, who was trapped in an abusive marriage and who has actively fought against societal expectations for women, would not be the most villainous female character in the books by a country mile.

The problem is that Cersei isn't fighting against societal expectations for women. She wants to assume the role of the patriarch, not so much as to defeat them.

From what I can tell, we're not supposed to feel bad for Lysa, as sad as her story is. We're not supposed to view the marriage as the problem.

I wonder why Martin highlights Hoster Tully's last days of suffering repeating tansy over and over again, then?

Lysa is a comically evil figure and we are supposed to find her repulsive and loathe her actions and her choices, even as justifiable as they might objectively seem given her sad history. I get the sense that we're supposed to cheer when Littlefinger shoves her out the Moon Door, as indeed many do.

Speak for yourself. Myself, and many others are quite sympathetic to Lysa and appreciate who the real villain was there.

The actions which specifically trigger Lysa's death are also an example of her choosing her crazed, obsessive love for Littlefinger over her duty to Sansa as her aunt.

Again, the villain is LF. Sansa and Lysa are unfortunate victims, and it's not the first time a woman has incorrectly identified the cause of her suffering. Lysa's attack of Sansa reeks of desperation.

More later...

[Pod The Impaler]

What I see is that Sansa is truly in danger of being unable to reclaim her Stark identity. ... . [ Sansa, Bran & Arya ] seem to be undergoing some form of ego-death (especially Arya). However, Bran and Arya, no matter how deeply they go into their new identities, have something to anchor them to their Stark selves (direwolves, Needle), to pull them back from the brink. Sansa lost her direwolf. She has no anchor to her Stark identity, and it's showing.

The only protection she had against Littlefinger was her courtesy armour, and the way she thinks of Littlefinger as Petyr, values him, admires him, and accedes to his requests with little resistance, suggests that he's hacked her courtesy armour. She's in real danger of losing herself, and I think it's overly optimistic to pretend otherwise. ... She's not lost yet, but she's well on her way to being completely lost: she's mentally beaten down and the fight's gone out of her (as I've discussed before), she's increasingly identifying with Littlefinger, and she doesn't have the protections that the other Stark kids in similar predicaments do.

I don't see her stint as a bastard as a fun roleplaying exercise or a refreshing new take on life and love. Rather, to me it's part and parcel of Littlefinger's assault on her self and on her soul. Littlefinger's assault is itself an extension of the assault on Sansa's soul that's taken place over the course of the series, where her ideals, her hopes, her dreams, her ambitions, her expectations, her ideas about what she deserves, her pride, her self-esteem, her ego, and ultimately her self have all been dismantled one by one. ... Littlefinger's launched a full-out assault on her very being, which is a logical extension of Sansa's soul being taken apart over the course of the series.

"Hacking" her courtesy armour is an interesting way to put it, and perhaps appropriate. Petyr has has his own version of it, with his way of disarming contentious people with his charm - his appeals to their self-interest, his japes and witticisms, his false shows of deference, and yes, his courtesy. As for Sansa being "beaten down", I suppose another way to put it would be "worn down" by constant but subtle pressure - that is Littlefinger's method, rather than the sort of outright terrorizing that was applied by Joffrey and Cersei and Tywin.

[brashcandy]

And this was a horrific decision which caused misery and strife.

I'm not going to claim that Rhaegar and Lyanna necessarily went about it in the right way, but I'd argue that the misery and strife comes from how people react to their actions, not the actions themselves.

Given how Robert Baratheon mooned after his intended after her death, we'll never know how things would have otherwise turned out. Lyanna may have said Robert would never keep to one bed, but would she have been right?

Of course Robert moons over her; she's the one that got away so he can continuously invest in idealised dreams about their relationship that would probably have been shattered very early in the marriage.

It is safe to say that her rejection of love in favour of duty was the problem, not the arranged marriage. Kevan seems to think that if the Rhaegar/Cersei match had gone through, Rhaegar wouldn't have looked twice at Lyanna and the whole mess could have been avoided. I don't know how I feel about that, given that it seems to blame Elia for not being hot enough, but Rhaegar submitting to an arranged marriage isn't treated as the problem. As Barristan says, "Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and thousands (?) died," etc. etc.

Well, I don't view Rhaegar's arranged marriage with Elia as quite the problem there either. There's still so much we don't about that relationship that's it hard to talk about it, but I don't think it's fair to claim that Lyanna choosing love over duty brought disaster down necessarily. Had she chosen to marry Robert, that disaster could have ensued just as easily. I think romances have to have a mature foundation, but I'm not certain that this was present between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Again, maybe ideally, but that's not how it's treated in the text. Women who honour their wants and needs and reject their arranged marriages are treated as selfish, immoral and even evil. The worst female characters we've come across are both adulteresses, but the text doesn't seem to treat the marriages as the problem. Indeed, the narrative seems to be "they're crazy, and their adulterous actions are not reflective of the unfair strictures of an arranged marriage, but of their selfishness and moral bankruptcy."

Well I guess we'll have to disagree again. I do think the marriages are treated as the problem and they have a direct hand in creating these selfish, amoral women. Even Cersei as you noted above had hopes of being a good wife to Rhaegar, and Lysa became bitter after Hoster's treatment. Perhaps these women might have struggled to make it in any relationship, but I don't think the text supports this.

[Ragnorak]

Personally, I don't read books because I can relate or identify with a character, but I've often seen people say that men can't relate to Sansa. Is this true? Can we get some guy opinion here? I think it's very silly. Sansa isn't defined by her girliness imo. She has many many qualities and personality traits that are very interesting and have nothing to do with her privates. Unless some people don't want to identity with her because she is a girly-girl, and that's another matter entirely. Brashcandy (in one of my favourite posts on tumblr) once wrote a list of ways anyone can identify with Sansa, even a little bit.

...

But I'm curious about what you guys have to say about Sansa's ambitions. Do you agree with Stefan that she has no ambition to take power for herself in the future? Do you think she does not want to be queen?

I'll take a crack at it. First point is that I think Sansa's struggles (and just about everyone's struggles) are primarily human struggles. Gender can strongly flavor the feel of a story but in the end we're all human. Any of us who have felt trapped, been mistreated by someone in a position of authority, acted out of a naive innocence in our youth, or found ourselves alone in a new place and had to fend for ourselves can find ample ground to relate to Sansa. Also even on the gender front, Sansa is a daughter, an older sister, and a younger sister to POV characters so even that offers grounds for relating even if the "girly" part removes the self-identification aspect of her own POV. Personally, Sansa's roles as a sister and a daughter are some of the strongest sympathy ties to her character for me-- ties that in some ways are stronger than personal identification.

I think the single most influencial factor in men not identifying with Sansa is the internal and subtle nature of her character development up until now. There is a big difference in feel between Arya stabbing the Tickler repeatedly while she asks him his own questions and Sansa's refusing to kneel for Tyrion at her own wedding. Arya was so expressive that even Sandor was somewhat taken aback while one of Sansa's greatest acts of defiance isn't even from her own POV. Arya has a very obvious in your face Xena Warrior Princess appeal while Sansa's story is far more subtle. Not to get too stereotypical here, but ninja with a wolf army training as a member of an uber assassin cult is a much easier male sell than defending one's very identity against an artful mind game of deceit amidst dying dreams and crushed innocence.

Also Sansa doesn't get rescued. On a first read Sansa is the damsel in distress and her POVs show an ever increasing distress to build tension and give us insight into the villians while her heroic brother struggles to rescue her. It is very easy on a first read to fall for this and largely or entirely miss what is actually going on with Sansa-- though I would expect that to change on a reread.

Recalling my own frustration with Sansa's story first time around it centered largely on false starts tied to my own inaccurate expectations. I had some hopes for her engineering her own escape amidst the Dontos and Tyrell offers. The first time I got angry(?) with Sansa's character was when she told Dontos about the Tyrell offer. She finally escaped after the wedding and I hoped to see her spread her wings only to find her a prisoner in the Eyrie. Then she builds Snow Winterfell and I just knew Littlefinger was a dead man walking but then Lysa gets a bit psycho with her homicidal Moon Door fetish and again Sansa's emergence is delayed. The last delay didn't bother me so much because Snow Winterfell was just that cool. There was no longer a shred of doubt that I would eventually read a very satisfactory outcome.

I missed a good deal with Sansa's story my first read, but I did catch her repeated defiance and that was a big factor in my expectations. I wonder if this defiance without any overt follow through contributes to some of the disconnect with Sansa.

I don't personally see Sansa as power hungry or even desiring to be a Queen-- unless it is Queen in the North and involves rebuilding her home. I don't see this as a negative. Jon never sought power or tried to be LC and it is one of the things I admire in his character. Ned's saying that it was all meant for Brandon is something I would expect to be mirrored in Sansa and it is all to the positive as far as I'm concerned. I expect Sansa to seek and gain power just not out of an ambition for that power itself.

[brashcandy]

I think the single most influencial factor in men not identifying with Sansa is the internal and subtle nature of her character development up until now. There is a big difference in feel between Arya stabbing the Tickler repeatedly while she asks him his own questions and Sansa's refusing to kneel for Tyrion at her own wedding. Arya was so expressive that even Sandor was somewhat taken aback while one of Sansa's greatest acts of defiance isn't even from her own POV. Arya has a very obvious in your face Xena Warrior Princess appeal while Sansa's story is far more subtle. Not to get too stereotypical here, but ninja with a wolf army training as a member of an uber assassin cult is a much easier male sell than defending one's very identity against an artful mind game of deceit amidst dying dreams and crushed innocence.

Just a small correction Ragnorak - the whole shebang with the wedding is written from Sansa's POV. Anyways, I think your assessment is pretty spot on in terms of the reason for a lot of the disconnect with a lot of readers who appreciate overt, "violent" acts of rebellion. Added to this is the fact that Tyrion is a fan favourite, and Sansa's actions here are often construed as petty or cruel, with no appreciation for the fact that she was resisting the violence being done to her self esteem and identity.

I missed a good deal with Sansa's story my first read, but I did catch her repeated defiance and that was a big factor in my expectations. I wonder if this defiance without any overt follow through contributes to some of the disconnect with Sansa.

I think this is a great observation. Sansa can be defiant, but that isn't followed by an explosion of fireworks and anger for the most part. It doesn't mean that she's forgotten the moment of defiance though, or that we should either. And this is why I think she will be eventually triumph over LF, who will misread the signs of her defiance/unwillingness for consent. Sansa's most effective weapon to date has been this ability to keep her emotions in check. I think it's even more vital that she continue to do this around someone as dangerous as LF.

ETA: As an open question for the thread: Do you think Martin has been too subtle with Sansa's defiance?

[greensleeves]

ETA: As an open question for the thread: Do you think Martin has been too subtle with Sansa's defiance?

No. I love Sansa's subtleness! I think it shows strength and maturity while highlighting her dire circumstances.

[Ragnorak]

Just a small correction Ragnorak - the whole shebang with the wedding is written from Sansa's POV.

Damn, I always get that crossed in my head. Yeah, the Purple Wedding is where it switches from Sansa to Tyrion.

Thank you for the correction.

I also think "No" on the too subtle question. Besides, if Sansa was too subtle for someone for the first three books there's always Snow Winterfell-- that's not exactly subtle. Hmmm... why is that timid Tully girl with the dead wolf turning into some Old God Queen of Winter. Maybe I missed something important.

[brashcandy]

Damn, I always get that crossed in my head. Yeah, the Purple Wedding is where it switches from Sansa to Tyrion.

Thank you for the correction.

I also think "No" on the too subtle question. Besides, if Sansa was too subtle for someone for the first three books there's always Snow Winterfell-- that's not exactly subtle. Hmmm... why is that timid Tully girl with the dead wolf turning into some Old God Queen of Winter. Maybe I missed something important.

I feel the same way. Anyways, I was just going through the Heresy 22 and they're having some really interesting discussion which I've requested some help figuring out.

[Kittykatknits]

ETA: As an open question for the thread: Do you think Martin has been too subtle with Sansa's defiance?

I read your question right after you posted this and needed to think about it for a bit before answering as I have somewhat mixed feelings on it. For me as a reader, I do not think she is to subtle. Sansa makes me work as a reader and I identify with how she displays her defiance as I'm very similar to her in that way. I also think that Sansa is a character that demands a re-read, to a greater degree than some others in the series. Her subtly leads to a certain level of complexity that I think can be missed by readers. Her story is not just told via her words or actions, you need to go past the actual scenes in her chapters and analyze her actions as well as the actions of others, her thoughts, and the imagery included to get a full picture of what is taking place. She does not spoon feed anything to the readers. I love this, personally.

However, I think an argument can be made that Martin is not always successful with how he chooses to write Sansa when it comes to her level of defiance. The biggest complaint that I see against Sansa is that she is a passive character who should do something.yet many of those same readers then criticize her when she does just that. Is this because her acts of defiance are done in a way that the reader can't recognize or identify with? Sansa refused to kneel at her wedding which was a deliberate act of defiance against the Lannisters yet she is criticized for hurting Tyrion's feelings. I think Sansa suffers for being pitted against one of the most popular characters in the series and so this act is sometimes viewed as cruel or petty rather than recognized for what it is. If we look at the death of Lady, Sansa receives much of the blame for this which I think is a very inaccurate statement to make. She felt what I believe is justified anger with her sister since Arya is the one that created the situation in the first place. Yet, it seems this is not apparent to many readers. I also admit that I wish Martin was just a bit more obvious at times just so it would shut some readers up. :)

I also think "No" on the too subtle question. Besides, if Sansa was too subtle for someone for the first three books there's always Snow Winterfell-- that's not exactly subtle. Hmmm... why is that timid Tully girl with the dead wolf turning into some Old God Queen of Winter. Maybe I missed something important.

Yesterday in the Confessions thread, I had written that I sometimes feel compelled to ask posters if they have actually read the books (but with less polite language) and your example is one of the very ones I had been thinking of. Sansa literally accepts the product of winter in to her body during this scene and yet people still make comments that Sansa has lost her Starkness or doesn't belong in the North.

[Queen of Winter]

Yesterday in the Confessions thread, I had written that I sometimes feel compelled to ask posters if they have actually read the books (but with less polite language) and your example is one of the very ones I had been thinking of. Sansa literally accepts the product of winter in to her body during this scene and yet people still make comments that Sansa has lost her Starkness or doesn't belong in the North.

Yes, I've always loved the imagery that evoked! Not to mention what comes after:

"A mad rage seized hold of her. She picked up a broken branch and smashed the torn doll’s head down on top of it, then pushed it down atop the shattered gatehouse of her snow castle.

The servants looked aghast, but when Littlefinger saw what she’d done he laughed. “If the tales be true, that’s not the first giant to end up with his head on Winterfell’s walls.” "

I don't think that will be the last one either! (hint, hint) ;)

[Lummel]

I read your question right after you posted this and needed to think about it for a bit before answering as I have somewhat mixed feelings on it. For me as a reader, I do not think she is to subtle. Sansa makes me work as a reader and I identify with how she displays her defiance as I'm very similar to her in that way. I also think that Sansa is a character that demands a re-read...I also admit that I wish Martin was just a bit more obvious at times just so it would shut some readers up. :)...

Hmmm. What you see is all there is.

GRRM is pretty blatant, the issue is that as a reader once you get an idea or an impression of a character in your head it's hard to shift despite everything you read to the contrary. I'm sure that you can list the ways quicker than I can how your expectations are either built up against Sansa or in a less positive manner than Arya or Tyrion in the first couple of chapters of AGOT. Generally those early impressions are very sticky and you read the character forever (eh, more or less ;) ) in the light of those first impressions. Which is why rereading can end up being such a revelation.

As an off Sansa example I reread the AGOT Tyrion chapters for the first time since ADWD and was shocked that there were about three or four times that Tyrion cold bloodedly referred to his desire to murder his father or sister. It is blatantly and clearly printed on the page but it just hadn't stuck in my mind, but for me it's only after reading him saying the same things but with more leering in ADWD it's become unmissable.

...The servants looked aghast, but when Littlefinger saw what she’d done he laughed. “If the tales be true, that’s not the first giant to end up with his head on Winterfell’s walls.” "

I don't think that will be the last one either! (hint, hint) ;)

Oh no! Poor Hodor! :crying:

ETA spelling, spelling, spelling

[Queen of Winter]

Oh no! Poor Hodor! :crying:

:rolleyes: Lummel...! :lol:

[Kittykatknits]

Hmmm. What you see is all there is.

GRRM is pretty blatent, the issue is that as a reader once you get an idea or an impression of a character in your head it's hard to shift despite everything you read to the contrarty. I'm sure that you can list the ways quicker than I can how your expectations are either built up against Sansa or in a less positive manner than Arya or Tyrion in the first couple of chapters of AGOT. Generally those early impressions are very sticky and you read the character forever (eh, more or less ;) ) in the light of those first impressions. Which is why rereading can end up being such a revelation.

As an off Sansa example I reread the AGOT Tyrion chapters for the first time since ADWD and was shocked that there were about three or four times that Tyrion cold bloodiedly referred to his desire to murder his father or sister. It is blatently and clearly printed on the page but it just hadn't stuck in my mind, but for me it's only after reading him saying the same things but with more leering in ADWD it's become unmissable.

I finished GOT about a month ago, paying very close attention to the Tyrion chapters in part because of the re-read that is coming up. Now, I don't think much of his behavior or what he says in Dance should be much of a surprise. We got all the hints in the first few Tyrion chapters but the sympathetic writing prevents me from seeing it. When does that re-read start BTW? I remember it was the middle of September so think it should be soon.

I also agree with your thoughts re: Sansa and first impressions, it's what leads to statements that she needs to redeem herself at some point, a thought that I find absurd. I agree with you that Martin is blatant on a re-read if the reader is willing to re-examine their initial impressions. My very first read-through of the series was more about keeping track of people, places, and needed plot lines. The re-reads is where I was able to slow down and examine the characters themselves and get inside their head. It's when the words are wind theme is more obvious and better helped me to question what they are actually saying and doing.

[brashcandy]

Kittykat, it's started already: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/73793-rereading-tyrion/

[Kittykatknits]

Kittykat, it's started already: http://asoiaf.wester...reading-tyrion/

Thank you, I didn't think to look in the re-read sub forum.

[Lummel]

I finished GOT about a month ago, paying very close attention to the Tyrion chapters in part because of the re-read that is coming up. Now, I don't think much of his behavior or what he says in Dance should be much of a surprise. We got all the hints in the first few Tyrion chapters but the sympathetic writing prevents me from seeing it. When does that re-read start BTW? I remember it was the middle of September so think it should be soon.

I also agree with your thoughts re: Sansa and first impressions, it's what leads to statements that she needs to redeem herself at some point, a thought that I find absurd. I agree with you that Martin is blatant on a re-read if the reader is willing to re-examine their initial impressions. My very first read-through of the series was more about keeping track of people, places, and needed plot lines. The re-reads is where I was able to slow down and examine the characters themselves and get inside their head. It's when the words are wind theme is more obvious and better helped me to question what they are actually saying and doing.

Yes, it's very interesting, in retrospect there really aren't surprises in GRRM it's all quite clear but you can blind yourself to it, or GRRM cunningly leads you up the garden path. But like you say he gives clues like 'words are wind' that should prompt you to look beyond what's said

The notion that Sansa has to redeem herself is absurd - but easy and natural to fall into (although personally I don't think that GRRM is really interested in redemption), but now that you've done the reread and got the thread you can always just link to it to give people a push in the right direction :)

Yeah, this time we are starting in the re-read forum. We thought it would be best to keep the riff-raff away :). Things are a bit slower in the sub-forum and that suits what we want to achieve I think - something a bit more relaxed than the zippy fast moving threads you get here in General. Rereading Tyrion will be a long reread and we have only just started.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

So if we could get hints/foreshadows for the fate ore path of the characters. Then i would like to ask are there any good foreshadows for Sansa. And does Sansa's dream about herself and joffrey count?

[brashcandy]

So if we could get hints/foreshadows for the fate ore path of the characters. Then i would like to ask are there any good foreshadows for Sansa. And does Sansa's dream about herself and joffrey count?

Off the top of my head I would consider as positive-

• "get her a dog, she'll be happier for it" - more satisfying relationship with Sandor
  
• Sansa's keeping of Sandor's cloak beneath her summer silks - waiting for a better time
  
• slaying the giant in the castle of snow - defeating her enemy
  
• "If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me." - a different understanding of power
  
• When Cersei tells her to keep waiting for Aemon the Dragonknight and Symeon Star eyes to rescue her - well those two figures fit Jaime and Brienne pretty well.
  

What dream exactly are you referring to with Joffrey?