From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XI

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Off the top of my head I would consider as positive-

• "get her a dog, she'll be happier for it" - more satisfying relationship with Sandor
  
• Sansa's keeping of Sandor's cloak beneath her summer silks - waiting for a better time
  
• slaying the giant in the castle of snow - defeating her enemy
  
• "If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me." - a different understanding of power
  
• When Cersei tells her to keep waiting for Aemon the Dragonknight and Symeon Star eyes to rescue her - well those two figures fit Jaime and Brienne pretty well.
  

What dream exactly are you referring to with Joffrey?

Remember the dream where she wears a golden gown and everyone she knows bows for her and show their courtesies. Yeah it probably mean nothing. However do you think that Sansa's line to Cersei: I will be a queen just like you" means anything? And really I never thought that would be an foreshadow. Though the word save quite nerves me a bit since i want sansa to save herself since it would fit her arc, but the idea of sansa, brienne and jaime together is like a ASOIAF dream coming true. My three favorite characters together. You just made my day.

[Queen of Winter]

Remember the dream where she wears a golden gown and everyone she knows bows for her and show their courtesies. Yeah it probably mean nothing. However do you think that Sansa's line to Cersei: I will be a queen just like you" means anything? And really I never thought that would be an foreshadow. Though the word save quite nerves me a bit since i want sansa to save herself since it would fit her arc, but the idea of sansa, brienne and jaime together is like a ASOIAF dream coming true. My three favorite characters together. You just made my day.

You mean this one, QSS? :

"That night Sansa dreamt of Joffrey on the throne, with herself seated beside him in a gown of woven gold. She had a crown on her head, and everyone she had ever known came before her, to bend the knee and say their courtesies."

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Off the top of my head I would consider as positive-

• "get her a dog, she'll be happier for it" - more satisfying relationship with Sandor
  
• Sansa's keeping of Sandor's cloak beneath her summer silks - waiting for a better time
  
• slaying the giant in the castle of snow - defeating her enemy
  
• "If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me." - a different understanding of power
  
• When Cersei tells her to keep waiting for Aemon the Dragonknight and Symeon Star eyes to rescue her - well those two figures fit Jaime and Brienne pretty well.
  

More off the top of my head:

"My skin has turned from porcelain, to ivory, to steel" - she is hardening and becoming ever stronger (steel is both armor and weapon in battle)

Her ability to navigate perilous footholds both escaping from King's Landing (the steps carved in the cliff face) and descending from the Eyrie (ability to navigate perilous political and personal situations on a larger level)

"Gentle Mother, Font of Mercy" - she not only sings this to Sandor, she sings it to a crowd of women to calm them down (Mother to her people as well as a personal mother?)

- She thinks to herself that she will have children named after her family: while I hope this is foreshadowing on a personal level for her :) the fact that she is thinking of Stark family names makes me think she will rebuild Winterfell and restore the good rule of the Starks to the north

- Her casting an eye on the purple and blue dresses before choosing a simpler one: Purple is the color of royalty, and blue of winter roses. Will she be the Rose of the North or the Winter Queen?

- She eats a blood orange while Petyr eats a pomegranate: we've discussed the pomegranate symbol but IIRC oranges grew in the glass gardens of Winterfell, as did lemons and blue roses: more rebuilding of Winterfell

- Out of left field and cracktastic, but I've been doing a sort of mini-Theon-reread and note that he mentions several times he wishes he could have married Sansa (mostly because she was Eddard Stark's daughter, and yes, we all know what Theon was like, and yes, Sansa was pretty, but I think he wanted her more so he could be a true Stark and belong) - once he wishes she were there to marry to keep his hold on Winterfell. Then the fake Arya he meets as Reek (and rescues as Theon, finally) is in fact Sansa's friend Jeyne. Is Sansa the soul of Winterfell?

Tyrion turns into Sandor in Sansa's marriage bed: Oh I hope so! :D

[Queen Sansa Stark]

You mean this one, QSS? :

"That night Sansa dreamt of Joffrey on the throne, with herself seated beside him in a gown of woven gold. She had a crown on her head, and everyone she had ever known came before her, to bend the knee and say their courtesies."

Yes I meant that one, but changes are big it means nothing. I only remember it because Sansa on a throne - any throne - deeply satisfies me. Ignore my Sansa fangirl moods. I just was in one of those moods.

[brashcandy]

Yes I meant that one, but changes are big it means nothing. I only remember it because Sansa on a throne - any throne - deeply satisfies me. Ignore my Sansa fangirl moods. I just was in one of those moods.

I get those moods too :) I don't know if she'll actually ever be a sitting Queen, but she could be a Queen of hearts type figure based on the compassion and empathy she's shown throughout the series. Sansa I think is meant to be more than just a figure head monarch at the end of it all.

[Queen of Winter]

Yes I meant that one, but changes are big it means nothing. I only remember it because Sansa on a throne - any throne - deeply satisfies me. Ignore my Sansa fangirl moods. I just was in one of those moods.

I get those moods too :) I don't know if she'll actually ever be a sitting Queen, but she could be a Queen of hearts type figure based on the compassion and empathy she's shown throughout the series. Sansa I think is meant to be more than just a figure head monarch at the end of it all.

True, that Sansa may never sit as Queen (which will be fine w. me as long as she's happy). If she does become a Queen, she might be like Queen Alysanne Targaryen.

Also remember when he was imprisoned in the Eyrie, one of the songs Marillion sang was called "Alysanne". Sansa thought to herself the songs he was singing were sad.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

One more thing I thought of - something that is so offhand if you blink you will miss it: In the middle of the "Alayne" chapter where she is waiting on the Lords Declarant, "Alayne" sees Ser Lyn Corbray's sword, Lady Forlorn, which is made of Valyrian steel. "...it put Sansa in mind of Ice, her father's greatsword." For that one fleeting moment, she is Sansa - then she slips back into Alayne, where she remains for the rest of the book.

Does this mean that Sansa will collect Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail and re-forge Ice? Or perhaps that she will bring her surviving siblings back together again?

[Milady of York]

ETA: As an open question for the thread: Do you think Martin has been too subtle with Sansa's defiance?

I much prefer it to be that subtle, even if the way it's usually interpreted is frustrating. Reasons I can cite include:

a. Subtlety challenges the reader. It gives food for thought.

b. It forces you to pay more attention to details in a way lack of subtlety can’t. Some of us have to credit ASOIAF for making us more alert when reading.

c. Sometimes overt/extroverted defiance mask the real mental state of the character; he/she could be suffering horribly in the inside while doing the deed and we’ll miss it by focusing too much on the badassery of it all. On the contrary, going into his/her head gives you a better understanding of his/her mental state at the moment.

d. Quiet/introverted reactions give a glimpse of the richness of her interior. You get to know her thought process, her feelings, her strengths and her flaws.

e. It makes her believable and the Starks as well, for if there were no differences and contrasts subtly and not so subtly described, they wouldn’t feel like a real family, but cartoonish action figures. Come on, you know that in real life all large/medium size families have girly girls who cry quietly and resist with dignity and tomboys who'd break your teeth if offended, crazies and smarts, saints and sinners, relatives you adore and relatives you’d gladly pay for them to go into perpetual spiritual retirement in the Himalayas.

f. Personal preference, I favour a character with a rich mentality because he/she knows/can learn how to use both passive resistance and the kick-them-where-it-hurts sort of defiance. Sansa isn't too subtle, she already has given us some small, often overlooked, examples of her less-than-passive side. It reminds me of an old saying that peaceful beings can be more lethal than naturally aggresive beings because with the first you know they are dangerous and are prepared for you know their ways, but with the latter you don't, for you've been understimating them for ages and they catch you unprepared.

[Newstar]

"get her a dog, she'll be happier for it" - more satisfying relationship with Sandor

Viewing the Hound as a Lady substitute must be a little weird for those who see a current or future romantic relationship between Sansa and Sandor, since her connection with Lady was not at all romantic or sexual (at least I hope not). She doesn't seem to view the Hound as an adequate or satisfactory Lady substitute--she tells the dog she addresses as the "sad old hound" "I wish you were Lady" after she dreams of the Hound menacing her with "I'll have a song from you"--and nor should she, because that would be gross. I don't get how her relationship with the Hound, even if it was/will be awesome, could be more satisfying than her relationship with Lady. Lady was a part of her; the Hound is just some dude. If you lose a leg and someone offers you their arm to lean on to walk, I'm pretty sure you would appreciate the help but that you wouldn't "be happier" for having lost the leg.

Sansa's keeping of Sandor's cloak beneath her summer silks - waiting for a better time

A lot of characters anticipate things getting better, and yet...

Slaying the giant in the castle of snow

This could refer to the Sweetrobin/Littlefinger incident in ASOS, and things have deteriorated considerably for Sansa since then.

"If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me." - a different understanding of power

Sure, she has that understanding of power, but will she ever get to apply it? Look at her trajectory, in cold terms of title:

1. AGOT: Future Queen

2. ACOK: Future Queen

3. ASOS: Married to Lord of a great house, heir to Winterfell

4. AFFC: (As Alayne) Bastard/(As Sansa) Accused of regicide, treason

5. ???

There definitely seems to be a downward trend there in terms of her prospects for future queenship, on paper anyway. At this rate, Jaime's tongue in cheek vision for her--anonymous blacksmith or innkeeper's wife--is starting to look less like a snarky comment and more like a prophecy. Sure, she might be happier that way--her titles certainly don't say anything about her happiness at those stages--but it seems quite unlikely she'll wind up anywhere near ladyship, let alone queenship, the way she's going. And "Lady" did die, after all (Sansa also describes Lady taking food from her fingers "as delicate[ly] as a queen").

Speaking of the queen comment, she bitterly reflects a while after this conversation takes place that the smallfolk love Margaery even as they hated Sansa, even if Margaery had done nothing to earn their love and Sansa had done nothing to earn their hatred. So she seems to have a more nuanced understanding, that the love of your people often has absolutely no relation to your actions and that "making the people love you" is not something that can be done by sheer choice.

When Cersei tells her to keep waiting for Aemon the Dragonknight and Symeon Star eyes to rescue her - well those two figures fit Jaime and Brienne pretty well

She also tells Sansa "I'm sure it won't be long now." Well, as of ADWD, Brienne agreed to choose Jaime's life over Pod's, and Jaime has mysteriously gone missing...If Sansa waits for Jaime and Brienne to save her, as Cersei "predicted," she'll be waiting a long time. And there seems to be a trend in Sansa's arc of all her "saviours" privileging their own agendas over hers (I realized on reread that the Hound only made his offer to rescue Sansa after he had lost everything by fleeing the battle...convenient!), turning on her, or abandoning her. She has not had one disinterested protector in the whole series,and I don't expect that to change, as it's deliberate: the message is that damsels waiting to get saved wind up with crappy saviours. (The extension of that would be "Save your own damn self," I guess, but I don't see Sansa learning that lesson anytime soon, what with her increasing identification with Littlefinger. Why save herself if she increasingly comes to believe that she doesn't need to be saved from him?)

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Personal preference, I favour a character with a rich mentality because he/she knows/can learn how to use both passive resistance and the kick-them-where-it-hurts sort of defiance. Sansa isn't too subtle, she already has given us some small, often overlooked, examples of her less-than-passive side. It reminds me of an old saying that peaceful beings can be more lethal than naturally aggresive beings because with the first you know they are dangerous and are prepared for you know their ways, but with the latter you don't, for you've been understimating them for ages and they catch you unprepared.

That reminds me of what Doran Martell said about himself and Oberyn - that he let Oberyn be the flamboyant, obviously "dangerous" one, while he was like the quiet serpent that lurked in the grass and got you when you weren't looking. I can almost see Sansa and Arya as like Doran and Oberyn in that regard (though I hope Arya doesn't meet Oberyn's fate!).

Just as people disregard Doran (hur hur, he's just a fat cripple who sits in his wheelchair! He can't possibly be dangerous...) they disregard Sansa as being weak, stupid, beaten-down, or just too damn sweet and mannerly to be of any danger. Even with Sandor, Sansa is "little bird" while Arya is "wolf bitch." Now I do not think that Sansa is going to go rampaging around killing people right and left, but I think she is going to be very dangerous to some people - especially a certain Lord Littlefinger, once she finds out who was really responsible for Ned's death and the fate of her family.

I think Sansa will be the more dangerous because she is beautiful, gracious and sweet - and I think she is genuinely all of these things. But I think Cersei is going to find out that the "stupid little girl" is someone to be reckoned with, and Littlefinger is going to regret thinking that Sansa is so gentle, harmless and powerless (and so much like Catelyn) that he can murder her aunt right in front of her and spill all his nefarious means of plotting to her.

[Kittykatknits]

<snip>

Yeah, we get it. Sansa's on a horrible downward trajectory with no hope or way out. The next step is for her to embrace Teh Evils. It's likely she'll be wandering the Riverlands by the end of WoW with no shoes and begging for her next meal. Unless she's to broken and beaten down to do that much....

[Newstar]

Yeah, we get it. Sansa's on a horrible downward trajectory with no hope or way out. The next step is for her to embrace Teh Evils. It's likely she'll be wandering the Riverlands by the end of

WoW with no shoes and begging for her next meal. Unless she's to broken and beaten down to do that much....

I'm saying that even the "optimistic" quotes could be interpreted in such a way that is consistent with a more realistic--some might say pessimistic, but these are pessimistic books--interpretation of her prospects within the story. That's all. Am I wrong when I show the downward trend of her titles? Am I wrong to point out that Sansa wishing for a better time is no guarantee that a better time will ever come for her? Am I wrong to suggest that it's highly unlikely that Jaime and Brienne will save her? Am I wrong to state that whatever her relationship with Sandor might be, it's no replacement for what she lost when she lost Lady? Am I wrong to state that AFFC shows that Sansa is increasingly identifying with Littlefinger and is less likely to view him as a danger or threat from which she wants to be saved? I'm also hardly the first to point out that Lady's death might well portend the end of Sansa's life as any kind of noble. This all seems quite reasonable and based on what is actually happening in the books, rather than what I want to have happened or to happen. If your strongest response to same is contempt and sarcasm rather than reasoned argument supported by the text, then I tend to think that strengthens my points rather than undermines them.

About Elba the Intoner's comments about the views of Sansa being a glass half-empty/half-full difference in viewpoint...To borrow a quote from The West Wing, "Half-empty, half-full, can we at least agree it's not full yet?" Still, these are cruel books and cruel things happen (I'm occasionally shocked by just how cruel), and I think that's important to keep in mind when analyzing Sansa's arc.

The books have their own moral code as well, where exceptionally cruel things happen to those who harm innocent children and to oathbreakers, even Stark oathbreakers. Robb and Jon's oathbreaking earned them both death. Whether Sansa is truly bound by her marriage vows is highly debatable (vows made at swordpoint have no force), but she is (unintentionally) harming and might be harming Sweetrobin intentionally in the future. If she ever becomes complicit in the plot to murder Sweetrobin--and given her previous complicity in covering up Lysa's death and her attitude about the medicine, there's an argument that she might--it's game over for her: she may as well slit her throat now and be done with it. GRRM might take the choice out of her hands by having Sweetrobin die before she realizes what's going on, but there is a possibility she discovers the truth and lets him die. I'm not saying she will; I'm saying she might. If that happens, she's definitely going to die, one way or another. Because she's a Stark, she'd probably "earn" a quick death (like Ned, Robb, and Cat), so she'd probably be spared Theon-style torture by GRRM, but yeah, no way is she living through that, even if she only goes along with Littlefinger because he's threatened her with death or whatnot.

[Tony Soprano]

Dear Sansa fans,

I don't know how many of you know about this, but we have an Elimination game going on in the Forum Games section. The Stark girls have managed to get to the finals, and are now facing each other.

Everyone's favorite young lady is barely hanging on in the fight against Arya Horseface. So, I come here on a recruiting mission.

We need you.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0u91w7Psn1qe6mdpo1_500.jpg

Sansa needs YOU!

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0s9foJKiL1r4kjgqo1_500.gif

Vote for her here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/73371-asoif-elimination-game-22-greatest-female-character-final/page__st__1440

Vote and help us proclaim her The Greatest Female Character of the 22nd ASoIaF Elimination Games. :D

[Queen Sansa Stark]

That reminds me of what Doran Martell said about himself and Oberyn - that he let Oberyn be the flamboyant, obviously "dangerous" one, while he was like the quiet serpent that lurked in the grass and got you when you weren't looking. I can almost see Sansa and Arya as like Doran and Oberyn in that regard (though I hope Arya doesn't meet Oberyn's fate!).

Just as people disregard Doran (hur hur, he's just a fat cripple who sits in his wheelchair! He can't possibly be dangerous...) they disregard Sansa as being weak, stupid, beaten-down, or just too damn sweet and mannerly to be of any danger. Even with Sandor, Sansa is "little bird" while Arya is "wolf bitch." Now I do not think that Sansa is going to go rampaging around killing people right and left, but I think she is going to be very dangerous to some people - especially a certain Lord Littlefinger, once she finds out who was really responsible for Ned's death and the fate of her family.

I think Sansa will be the more dangerous because she is beautiful, gracious and sweet - and I think she is genuinely all of these things. But I think Cersei is going to find out that the "stupid little girl" is someone to be reckoned with, and Littlefinger is going to regret thinking that Sansa is so gentle, harmless and powerless (and so much like Catelyn) that he can murder her aunt right in front of her and spill all his nefarious means of plotting to her.

This post of yours reminds me of little fingers question in ASOS of what is more dangerous, the sword in front of you ore the knife behind your back? And just like Sansa answered the knife is far far more dangerous, because it will strike at a moment you won't expect. I can definitely see Sansa working with this method when she becomes a player :D

[Snowborn]

Dear Sansa fans,

I don't know how many of you know about this, but we have an Elimination game going on in the Forum Games section. The Stark girls have managed to get to the finals, and are now facing each other.

Everyone's favorite young lady is barely hanging on in the fight against Arya Horseface. So, I come here on a recruiting mission.

We need you.

http://25.media.tumb...e6mdpo1_500.jpg

Sansa needs YOU!

http://27.media.tumb...4kjgqo1_500.gif

Vote for her here: http://asoiaf.wester.../page__st__1440

Vote and help us proclaim her The Greatest Female Character of the 22nd ASoIaF Elimination Games. :D

I came here to say the same :laugh:

Sansa needs us! Vote for her!

[Tony Soprano]

I came here to say the same :laugh:

Sansa needs us! Vote for her!

Great minds think alike. :P

Spread the word people. The more, the merrier.

[Caro99]

That reminds me of what Doran Martell said about himself and Oberyn - that he let Oberyn be the flamboyant, obviously "dangerous" one, while he was like the quiet serpent that lurked in the grass and got you when you weren't looking. I can almost see Sansa and Arya as like Doran and Oberyn in that regard (though I hope Arya doesn't meet Oberyn's fate!).

Just as people disregard Doran (hur hur, he's just a fat cripple who sits in his wheelchair! He can't possibly be dangerous...) they disregard Sansa as being weak, stupid, beaten-down, or just too damn sweet and mannerly to be of any danger. Even with Sandor, Sansa is "little bird" while Arya is "wolf bitch." Now I do not think that Sansa is going to go rampaging around killing people right and left, but I think she is going to be very dangerous to some people - especially a certain Lord Littlefinger, once she finds out who was really responsible for Ned's death and the fate of her family.

I think Sansa will be the more dangerous because she is beautiful, gracious and sweet - and I think she is genuinely all of these things. But I think Cersei is going to find out that the "stupid little girl" is someone to be reckoned with, and Littlefinger is going to regret thinking that Sansa is so gentle, harmless and powerless (and so much like Catelyn) that he can murder her aunt right in front of her and spill all his nefarious means of plotting to her.

Hey Milady, your comparison of Sansa to Doran made me remember a post i was in yeasterday about how he is The last player of the game since the start (taking ned, robert, rhaegar, jon arryn... into account.. Others then said that the real players were LF & Varys IIRC) and i think your points about how Sansa is the quiet snake hidden beneath the grass (or how Queen Sansa Stark said in her post: the dagger at the back) is really good!! Nice catch! i've always liked doran and been intrigued by what exactly happened between him and mellario, but we can all agree that he is indeed a wise ruler and very smart and knows how to play the game. he shares with Sansa the gift of patience and i recall Oberyn telling tyrion that someone said it was a good thing Doran had been the firstborn and thus the ruler of dorne, because if oberyn had been born before...

Well, i see this being similar to the starks: sansa is the most politicaly active sibling, and the second child so i'm sure she'll survive the game till the end in a way Robb couldn't. I don't know about Bran & arya's paths ending in some political/regent/king/queen thing but i can see sansa resembling doran and rickon arianne. though i hope she confides a bit more in him than doran did with arianne to avoid any misunderstandings...

oh and alex baratheon and dani snowborn, thanks for the link! i've already voted for sansa!

[brashcandy]

I'm saying that even the "optimistic" quotes could be interpreted in such a way that is consistent with a more realistic--some might say pessimistic, but these are pessimistic books--interpretation of her prospects within the story. That's all. Am I wrong when I show the downward trend of her titles? Am I wrong to point out that Sansa wishing for a better time is no guarantee that a better time will ever come for her? Am I wrong to suggest that it's highly unlikely that Jaime and Brienne will save her? Am I wrong to state that whatever her relationship with Sandor might be, it's no replacement for what she lost when she lost Lady? Am I wrong to state that AFFC shows that Sansa is increasingly identifying with Littlefinger and is less likely to view him as a danger or threat from which she wants to be saved? I'm also hardly the first to point out that Lady's death might well portend the end of Sansa's life as any kind of noble. This all seems quite reasonable and based on what is actually happening in the books, rather than what I want to have happened or to happen. If your strongest response to same is contempt and sarcasm rather than reasoned argument supported by the text, then I tend to think that strengthens my points rather than undermines them.

My point about Jaime and Brienne was never to suggest they might literally save Sansa, as I think most of us expect she will be taking an active role in her own deliverance; however, this doesn't negate the fact that Jaime and Brienne did want to help her, with Brienne actively involved in the search, and she could very well still be committed to this despite the unfortunate turn of events. They do not have to literally take Sansa out of the Eyrie on their backs to be of some assistance, and this is why I think we can appreciate the irony involved in Cersei's comments.

You may not believe that Sandor played a more important role for Sansa than Lady could have, but I think the textual evidence speaks for itself. The animal never had a chance, and would have been killed sooner or later during Sansa's captivity. Sandor played a crucial part in not only teaching Sansa some hard truths, but rescuing her on a number of occasions. That she's able to get some romantic traction out of this is what I would consider as a bonus.

About Elba the Intoner's comments about the views of Sansa being a glass half-empty/half-full difference in viewpoint...To borrow a quote from The West Wing, "Half-empty, half-full, can we at least agree it's not full yet?" Still, these are cruel books and cruel things happen, and I think that's important to keep in mind when analyzing Sansa's arc.

Of course it's not full, and we appreciate that these are cruel books. Sansa has to reach her full potential and seize the agency that has been out of her reach since the first book. We're not likely to agree about her characterization in AFFC or where she's headed, so let me just focus on the fact that Martin has said he's aiming for two more books in the series. He also indicated that Sansa's arc will take a new turn in TWOW. Given the time frame left in the books, I don't expect Martin to invest considerable time showing Sansa's demise into darkness. I cannot see the narrative purpose this would serve, not to mention it being at odds with the bulk of her characterisation. Martin has shown a broken world so far and it's about to get worse before it gets better with the threat of the Others and god knows what else, but characters have to emerge who can provide resistance to this threat and begin to chart a better path forward. Obviously, we feel very strongly that Sansa is one of these characters.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Huh newstar if you agree that Sansa will need to save herself then rely on saviours what makes you think Sansa won't do so? Sure this is a realistic and cruel book series, but Grrm fully intents to make the starks rise. Like Brashcandy said why on earth would Grrm take all this time and book space for Sansa to transform from pawn to player to not complete the growth. For crying out loud ADOS original title was a time a wolves. Sansa will obviously triumph over Little Finger.

[King Euron Swagjoy]

The recount has been finished in the elimination thread, vote for Sansa and help her win!

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