Jump to content

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XI


brashcandy

Recommended Posts

I must say, I agree with you on the chocolate thing. Nothing beats chocolate. ;) That said, I was never into lemon-y desserts.....until Sansa become one of my favourite characters, that is. Now, I eat lemony treats (most recent favourite has been lemon macarones) whenever I can.....in her honour of course! :D

OT: Really? :o Lemon cake rocks....I make a mean lemon cake! B)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sansa fans, how do you see Sansa's journey continuing? Brashcandy mentioned in one of her post that Grrm told Sansa's story will take a turn in TWOW. Is this a spoiler to what we can expect to her story? I for one suspect that Sansa will make allies at the vale, and that lf dies at the TWOW. That would make Sansa and the vale the perfect ending for TWOW. It has far more cliffhanger then the one we have here. And that says something because this one is getting me NUTS.

LF dying is for me 100% certain. I consider him a dead man walking. I for one think that him having harrenhal is a death sentence. Plus he has a bad prophecy looming over him. Sansa vs. Little finger, innocence vs. Corruption will happen sooner then later and I see LF to go down in an epic way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As much as we can be fairly certain about Sansa's character traits, her actual story line going forward is still a big mystery. Like you, I think she'll make allies in the Vale, but who will these be? I'm leaning towards Mya Stone and Lothor Brune (he's LF's man but Sansa could make the steal) in the near future, with a possible alliance with Bronze Yohn later on. Will the Blackfish show up in the Vale? If he does, how will this affect the dynamics? All these things we have to wait and see. I feel secure in saying that the HtH marriage will not come to pass, and that Sansa will be eventually reconnecting with Sandor. As much as I want to see LF's downfall, I don't see it happening until ADOS, and that goes for any reconnection Sansa may have with her remaining siblings. There are so many variables though - Dany and Tyrion, the Others, will Sansa learn to warg an animal, these tapestries that LF asked for, etc etc. I guess this is why we honestly don't spend a lot of time forecasting what will happen to Sansa, but rather concentrating on her qualities and her desires, which provide us with more substantive insight into how she might respond to whatever developments and challenges she meets in the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They fail to touch me because they contain neither complexity nor verisimilitude. The endlessly forgiving, pure thinking, utterly non judgmental, vaguely perfect literary figures like Ester Summerson may be comforting on behalf of their unthreatening nature, they will never be real or challenging to me. In order to be compelling, I think characters have to do what we, real people, do—suffer, feel, struggle. A character who never feels hatred or thirsts after vengeance would leave most people utterly cold; since such a state is both uninteresting and unrelatable.

So, besides agreeing with your amazing post Queen Cersei, i just had to make a quick remark about the bolded bit cause i am a BIG fan of Bleak House (that, great expectations & little dorrit are my favorite novels by dickens)... But about Esther, i see what you are trying to say. she was just too white a character at times, and she was never apealing to me. sure, for me a big influence in my decision is because she didn't want to stay with Mr. jarndyce :( (who btw was described as the best and kindest man ever to appear in a novel), but she never did anything that touched me the way lady Deadlock did- now that's an intresting fictional character! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sansa fans, how do you see Sansa's journey continuing? Brashcandy mentioned in one of her post that Grrm told Sansa's story will take a turn in TWOW. Is this a spoiler to what we can expect to her story? I for one suspect that Sansa will make allies at the vale, and that lf dies at the TWOW. That would make Sansa and the vale the perfect ending for TWOW. It has far more cliffhanger then the one we have here. And that says something because this one is getting me NUTS.

LF dying is for me 100% certain. I consider him a dead man walking. I for one think that him having harrenhal is a death sentence. Plus he has a bad prophecy looming over him. Sansa vs. Little finger, innocence vs. Corruption will happen sooner then later and I see LF to go down in an epic way.

I just want to say that first of all, I am not convinced that the series will end in seven books. GRRM himself has now said that "it's not written in blood" (paraphrasing) so we might well be up to eight. Which means that Sansa's story may unfold a bit more slowly than we'd assume - or maybe not.

And, FWIW, I read an interview with GRRM (and I promise to try to find the link) in which he says "when" (not "if") he brings Osha back into the story...With all my heart, I take that to mean that Sansa will be reunited with her little brother. :) (I mean, how disappointing would it be to read Osha saying "derp, Rickon's gone.") Of course, Rickon will still be a child at this point, and the Gods only know what the Manderlys will think after Davos dumps a wild child, a spearwife, and a huge ferocious direwolf on their doorstep. Be careful what you wish for, Wyman Manderly! :D I hope they don't present Sansa with the bill for Shaggydog trashing their merman's castle...

I agree that Petyr is dead man walking, especially with the prophecy that Sansa will slay a giant in a castle filled with snow - for reasons I've stated before, I think that is Petyr, not Gregor Clegane, Petyr being much more central to Sansa's story. Oh, and can I mention how much I hate when people say "oh, well, THAT prophecy is just about Sweetrobin's doll!" dismissing Sansa as someone of no importance, especially when other prophecies are taken seriously. :rolleyes:

As to who her allies are, besides the oft-mentioned Mya and Lothor, I have a feeling that Bronze Yohn thinks that something is up with "Alayne." He's met her before, at Winterfell and the tournament later in King's Landing. Just dying one's hair doesn't necessarily make one look that different; Sansa still has the same face, eyes and build, although she's grown up a bit. BY might well be wondering "except for her hair, that looks mighty like a young Catelyn Stark...hmmm..." In ADWD, when Jon is going through the Night Watch's food inventory, he muses that the Vale is fertile and preserved from the war, but no way would Lysa Arryn help Eddard Stark's bastard; he has no way of knowing that Lysa is good and dead by now. We also know (though Sansa doesn't) that BY really did want to fight for Eddard and Robb but Lysa wouldn't let him.

Anya Waynwood - there's a curious passage in AFFC, where she speaks up for "Alayne" when Lyn Corbray is making lewd comments about her - "The girl is young and gently bred, and has seen enough horrors." It could be that she is talking about Lysa going out the Moon Door, but it sounds almost as if she is speaking of the real Sansa.

Finally, again, blink and you'll miss it: when Lyn Corbray's sword "reminded Sansa of her father's greatsword, Ice..." I wonder if she is Sansa at that one moment among the Lords Declarant for a reason? That one or more will help her? She is not Sansa before or again in that or subsequent chapters.

HtH I think is a red Harryng. (sorry! But the Harrdyng coat of arms is red and black; that + the name makes me wonder) I've noted before that LF is such a liar and BS artist that I doubt Sansa is trusting that this plan involving a handsome knight riding to her rescue is at all true. LF is using this bait to lure in the old Sansa, who believed in fairy tales of knights riding to the rescue of distressed damsels. The Sansa of AFFC is so over all that. She might appear to go along with it but I don't think she believes that Petyr means what he says, nor do I think Petyr means what he says. He's no doubt planning to marry her himself. In any event, I think Sansa is learning how to come to her own rescue and that is just what she will do (with the help of allies, yes, but not some handsome knight like in the stories).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sansa fans, how do you see Sansa's journey continuing? Brashcandy mentioned in one of her post that Grrm told Sansa's story will take a turn in TWOW. Is this a spoiler to what we can expect to her story? I for one suspect that Sansa will make allies at the vale, and that lf dies at the TWOW. That would make Sansa and the vale the perfect ending for TWOW. It has far more cliffhanger then the one we have here. And that says something because this one is getting me NUTS.

A recent thread had me hopeful that Sansa will be a mentor and protector for SweetRobin. If you're going to make allies in the Vale, who better than it's lord?

This would also be furthering the idea of Sansa as a deconstruction of the damsel in distress: here she would be the one rescuing the helpless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And, FWIW, I read an interview with GRRM (and I promise to try to find the link) in which he says "when" (not "if") he brings Osha back into the story...With all my heart, I take that to mean that Sansa will be reunited with her little brother. :) (I mean, how disappointing would it be to read Osha saying "derp, Rickon's gone.") Of course, Rickon will still be a child at this point, and the Gods only know what the Manderlys will think after Davos dumps a wild child, a spearwife, and a huge ferocious direwolf on their doorstep. Be careful what you wish for, Wyman Manderly! :D I hope they don't present Sansa with the bill for Shaggydog trashing their merman's castle...

I read the same interview, it was after season 1 of the show. He said that he liked the changes made to her character and would give her a bit more to do when she reappears. Since her primary purpose at this point is to be foster mother to Rickon, I think that's a clear sign that we will see him again. I combine that to Jojen Reed telling Bran that the wolves would return to WF and I think there is some evidence to support the idea that Sansa and Rickon will reunite.

I agree that Petyr is dead man walking, especially with the prophecy that Sansa will slay a giant in a castle filled with snow - for reasons I've stated before, I think that is Petyr, not Gregor Clegane, Petyr being much more central to Sansa's story. Oh, and can I mention how much I hate when people say "oh, well, THAT prophecy is just about Sweetrobin's doll!" dismissing Sansa as someone of no importance, especially when other prophecies are taken seriously. :rolleyes:

I think it is possible that the ghost of HH was just talking about the snow castle and Sweetrobin's doll but I also believe that Martin was doing something else with her prophecy. I think including the snow castle in the ghost's dreams is Martin's way of telling the reader to pay attention to that scene and really think about what is happening here. It's the literary equivalent of an obnoxious neon sign in flashing lights in the shape of a giant arrow. That entire chapter is filled with symbolism and foreshadowed and I'm convinced Martin wanted the reader to pay attention.

HtH I think is a red Harryng. (sorry! But the Harrdyng coat of arms is red and black; that + the name makes me wonder) I've noted before that LF is such a liar and BS artist that I doubt Sansa is trusting that this plan involving a handsome knight riding to her rescue is at all true. LF is using this bait to lure in the old Sansa, who believed in fairy tales of knights riding to the rescue of distressed damsels. The Sansa of AFFC is so over all that. She might appear to go along with it but I don't think she believes that Petyr means what he says, nor do I think Petyr means what he says. He's no doubt planning to marry her himself. In any event, I think Sansa is learning how to come to her own rescue and that is just what she will do (with the help of allies, yes, but not some handsome knight like in the stories).

LOL at the play on words there. And I agree completely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that Petyr is dead man walking, especially with the prophecy that Sansa will slay a giant in a castle filled with snow - for reasons I've stated before, I think that is Petyr, not Gregor Clegane, Petyr being much more central to Sansa's story. Oh, and can I mention how much I hate when people say "oh, well, THAT prophecy is just about Sweetrobin's doll!" dismissing Sansa as someone of no importance, especially when other prophecies are taken seriously. :rolleyes:

As one of those who believe that particular prophesy has already come to pass, I disagree that it indicates Sansa's irrelevance, because is it not paired with the vision of the maid with purple snakes in her hair? The purple wedding is one of the biggest things to happen in Westeros, by which i mean the ramifications are huge. I personally think that it is more indicative of the unreliability of the prophesies than a reflection on Sansa herself. This unreliability is in the same vein as the Red Comet prophesy, the Valonqar, Maggi, etc...

Just thought I'd give you the perspective of someone who is not clearly insane, but who holds the opposite view. Anyone who says Sansa is irrelevant because of the giant episode is delusional :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most of you would be familiar with what Martin said regarding the finale of the tv show Lost, but I'll repost it here just as a refresher, and a reminder that he doesn't like loose endings and plot holes:

"By the time we reached the finale, I was still hoping for the best, but expecting the worst. I still think 'Lost' told a terrific story... a terrific story with a terrible ending. If the payoff had been equal to the set-up, I'd rank LOST among the very best series in the history of television. It didn't, so I can't. If LOST had delivered an ending that tied everything together in some brilliant and unexpected but satisfying fashion, I would have been first in line to buy the boxed set of DVDs so I could go back and watch it again episode by episode, exclaiming with pleasure, "Aha, so that's what that meant," and, "Oho, now I see, I thought that meant X, but it really meant Y."

Instead, I fear, watching the series over again would give me more frustration than pleasure, and I'd find myself muttering, "Well, that was never explained," and "Oho, that was a great puzzle that led nowhere," and "Hmmm, that was kind of arbitrary." Maybe if I did I would see that I was wrong, that the eventual end was actually being hinted at and foreshadowed in the first season, that all the puzzles are explained if only I looked a little deeper. Maybe. I have my doubts, though. Unlike Locke, I am not a man of faith. I am a man of skepticism."

I think it is possible that the ghost of HH was just talking about the snow castle and Sweetrobin's doll but I also believe that Martin was doing something else with her prophecy. I think including the snow castle in the ghost's dreams is Martin's way of telling the reader to pay attention to that scene and really think about what is happening here. It's the literary equivalent of an obnoxious neon sign in flashing lights in the shape of a giant arrow. That entire chapter is filled with symbolism and foreshadowed and I'm convinced Martin wanted the reader to pay attention.

This is interesting. Could it have been about setting up the end of AFFC/beginning of TWOW where Sansa realises who the real culprit is and moves to protect, not destroy the fake giant represented by Sweetrobin and his doll? LF in that scene is apparently trying to help her build the castle, just like at the end of AFFC where he's offering her Winterfell. In the former scene as well it's the first time he kisses her, but in the latter one he's become much more hands on and familiar. Destroying the giant has as much to do with recognizing who the giant is and the danger one faces.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brashcandy mentioned in one of her post that Grrm told Sansa's story will take a turn in TWOW.

The fact that GRRM has (cruelly) withheld a Sansa chapter in the TWOW readings to date, and the lack of any mention of Sansa in ADWD (there are maybe, like, ten, between Jon's discussion with Stannis about "Lady Lannister," Jeyne talking about never being as pretty as Sansa, Tyrion comparing Penny to Sansa, Tyrion mentioning his marriage to fend off Penny's interest, Brienne's lie about finding Sansa, etc.) or hint as to what was going on in the Vale after AFFC, suggests to me that there is a big plot twist leading off Sansa's (well, Alayne's) first chapter in TWOW. Possibilities:

1. Sweetrobin dies.

2. Ser Shadrich kidnaps Sansa and successfully escapes from the Vale with her.

3. Someone recognizes Sansa (Myranda Royce, maybe). Because Sansa can't have nice things, maybe this person uses the information to blackmail her or immediately sells her out to Cersei.

4. Harry the Heir dies, turning Littlefinger's plan on its head.

5. Something with the mountain clans, maybe (their ongoing guerilla warfare seems like it could come up again).

6. Sansa married Harry the Heir sometime in ADWD (unlikely, since you'd think news would have traveled if she'd revealed herself as Sansa Stark).

7. Sansa learns the truth about one or all of Littlefinger's misdeeds against her and her loved ones (betraying Ned, marrying off "Arya" to Ramsay, everything he did to Jeyne Poole, poisoning Sweetrobin) and starts planning to move against him (unlikely as well, in my opinion, but possible)

There are probably others, but those are the main ones I can think of right now. As annoying as it is to read about Sansa being shuffled this way and that, there seems to be a fair amount of foreshadowing for a rematch with Cersei, and for Sansa getting dragged back to King's Landing for Round 2, so Ser Shadrich outing Sansa or even kidnapping her seems likely. It would be very fitting with Sansa's arc if she were "rescued" from Littlefinger's clutches by someone whose sole aim is to drag her back to King's Landing to face certain torture and death. Out of the frying pan and into the fire, as they say, which sums up Sansa going from perilous situation to perilous situation over the books.

If Sansa is outed to the Vale lords, even though the Vale lords are loyal to the Starks, I very much doubt they would do anything to help her, or if they did, they would fail (since, again, Sansa can't have nice things, and a group of powerful people who actually care about her safety would be a very nice thing). I suppose they could "help" her by disposing of Littlefinger but make their assistance conditional on her agreeing to marry Harry the Heir to secure her claim.

I like the theory that was put forward that Sweetrobin never woke up after going to sleep in the last Sansa chapter of AFFC, but wouldn't that mean that Littlefinger would try to ram through the Sansa/Harry marriage ASAP? That would tend to support #6 on my list, that Sansa will already be married to Harry the Heir as of TWOW.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read the same interview, it was after season 1 of the show. He said that he liked the changes made to her character and would give her a bit more to do when she reappears. Since her primary purpose at this point is to be foster mother to Rickon, I think that's a clear sign that we will see him again. I combine that to Jojen Reed telling Bran that the wolves would return to WF and I think there is some evidence to support the idea that Sansa and Rickon will reunite.

I think it is possible that the ghost of HH was just talking about the snow castle and Sweetrobin's doll but I also believe that Martin was doing something else with her prophecy. I think including the snow castle in the ghost's dreams is Martin's way of telling the reader to pay attention to that scene and really think about what is happening here. It's the literary equivalent of an obnoxious neon sign in flashing lights in the shape of a giant arrow. That entire chapter is filled with symbolism and foreshadowed and I'm convinced Martin wanted the reader to pay attention.

LOL at the play on words there. And I agree completely.

But we are the only ones who are willingly to see further and analyse it. I have to agree with Kitten on there this. I think the main reason why people dismiss the prophecy , is because they, in generally, dismiss Sansa as a character.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most of you would be familiar with what Martin said regarding the finale of the tv show Lost, but I'll repost it here just as a refresher, and a reminder that he doesn't like loose endings and plot holes:.

I remember reading an interview with one of the producers of Lost who was responding to the backlash over the final episode. The show had always been meant as a character piece so much of the mystery was being made up as the show went along. The interview you quoted seems to be a reaction to some of that, a fact which I am very glad to hear. He seems to have a pretty clear road map that he is working on even if he doesn't know every street and path he'll use to arrive at the final destination. I'm expecting very few loose ends once the series is done actually. Of those left, I expect they will be very minor ones or red herrings.

His thoughts on plot holes I think can be considered an argument on characterization and character story arcs too. We may not know what the future holds for Sansa, but we can do analysis of how she will respond and react based upon who she is.

This is interesting. Could it have been about setting up the end of AFFC/beginning of TWOW where Sansa realises who the real culprit is and moves to protect, not destroy the fake giant represented by Sweetrobin and his doll? LF in that scene is apparently trying to help her build the castle, just like at the end of AFFC where he's offering her Winterfell. In the former scene as well it's the first time he kisses her, but in the latter one he's become much more hands on and familiar. Destroying the giant has as much to do with recognizing who the giant is and the danger one faces.

I still think LF is the giant that Sansa will slay, however that turns out to happen. She accepts winter in to her body, builds the godswood, challenges LF, and more. I'm pretty convinced that we're given several hints about not just future plot lines but how she may end the story - helping to rebuild WF.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But we are the only ones who are willingly to see further and analyse it. I have to agree with Kitten on there this. I think the main reason why people dismiss the prophecy , is because they, in generally, dismiss Sansa as a character.

I think there are a couple different things going on here. This goes back to the conversation that Lummel and I had yesterday regarding Sansa. Martin has said more than once that he has written this series to require a re-read, he wants us to look deeper and reexamine initial impressions. Superficial readings are what lead to comments such as Sansa needed to redeem herself, a statement that I find absurd. There are those who are dismissing Sansa as a character, I completely agree, but that's not due to Martin's failure at writing. It's because some readers are doing a superficial job at reading the text.

I'd also disagree that people in this thread are the only ones willing to look into that prophecy and the snow castle scene further, threads on the topic tend to come up fairly regularly. Ragnorak put together an amazing OP breaking down that chapter to look for foreshadowing and what it could mean for Sansa's future storyline. Also, believing that the ghost of HH was about the snow castle does not necessarily negate the importance of that scene in general. My point is that Martin wanted to highlight and draw the reader's attention to Sansa's chapter and used the ghost as a way to do so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember reading an interview with one of the producers of Lost who was responding to the backlash over the final episode. The show had always been meant as a character piece so much of the mystery was being made up as the show went along. The interview you quoted seems to be a reaction to some of that, a fact which I am very glad to hear. He seems to have a pretty clear road map that he is working on even if he doesn't know every street and path he'll use to arrive at the final destination. I'm expecting very few loose ends once the series is done actually. Of those left, I expect they will be very minor ones or red herrings.

His thoughts on plot holes I think can be considered an argument on characterization and character story arcs too. We may not know what the future holds for Sansa, but we can do analysis of how she will respond and react based upon who she is.

I still think LF is the giant that Sansa will slay, however that turns out to happen. She accepts winter in to her body, builds the godswood, challenges LF, and more. I'm pretty convinced that we're given several hints about not just future plot lines but how she may end the story - helping to rebuild WF.

Sansa excepting the winter in her body eh :D. You know the castle of snow could represent Sansa herself then instead of a real castle. And maybe the slaying won't mean LF death, but doing the thing that would really strike a nerve within him. Stripping him of his title and exile him out of the vale so he will be under the mercy of shadowcats and even better.... lady stoneheart. In my opinion LF doesn't deserve the mercy of a quick death.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sansa excepting the winter in her body eh :D. You know the castle of snow could represent Sansa herself then instead of a real castle. And maybe the slaying won't mean LF death, but doing the thing that would really strike a nerve within him. Stripping him of his title and exile him out of the vale so he will be under the mercy of shadowcats and even better.... lady stoneheart. In my opinion LF doesn't deserve the mercy of a quick death.

I have never understood the appeal of these torture fantasies. Death is terrible enough in itself; to gleefully wish for an even more horrific end for certain characters, no matter their depravity, must surely be considered depraved as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have never understood the appeal of these torture fantasies. Death is terrible enough in itself; to gleefully wish for an even more horrific end for certain characters, no matter their depravity, must surely be considered depraved as well.

Nothing wrong with a little depravity..... Wait, what?

Seriously though, torture fantasies are quite commonplace, I don't think they do much harm when they are lighthearted. All in good fun, and it is good to recognise the darker side of our own humanity. That's my opinion anyway. The problem lies in the motive behind the remarks. I frequently joke about hanging Freys etc.. but that is vastly different to the indignant call for "X character to be raped" because they deserve it.

i don't know, maybe I'm wrong and am trying to justify my own sick and twisted mind :devil:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have never understood the appeal of these torture fantasies. Death is terrible enough in itself; to gleefully wish for an even more horrific end for certain characters, no matter their depravity, must surely be considered depraved as well.

I don't think its wrong to wish for LF to meet Lady Stoneheart. This is does not necessarily equate with having a torture fantasy. For me, I'd like him to be faced with LS mainly because I want him to experience the mental anguish that it would bring. I have no desire to see LF physically tortured in a detailed and disguisting manner (had plenty of that with Ramsay Snow, thanks). BUT....given the havoc and horror that LF has either directly or indirectly caused throughout the series, having him go through a little bit of fear/mental stress before he dies is hardly overkill, imo. That said, GRRM rarely gives the villains such a 'neat' and tidy ending.....LF could die or be defeated without ever even realizing what is going on, but somehow I think (or hope) that such a significant player as he will at least know what is happening to him. If GRRM can have Varys 'taunting' (if it was that) Kevan Lannister while killing him, I'd hope LF could at least be taunted a bit before he dies (not necessarily by Sansa's hands!). Will it happen like that? Eh....who knows? :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have never understood the appeal of these torture fantasies. Death is terrible enough in itself; to gleefully wish for an even more horrific end for certain characters, no matter their depravity, must surely be considered depraved as well.

Huh I want LF to meet lady stoneheart because I want some karma for all the bad he has done. Nothing wrong with that :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...