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From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XI


brashcandy

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I don't think its wrong to wish for LF to meet Lady Stoneheart. This is does not necessarily equate with having a torture fantasy. For me, I'd like him to be faced with LS mainly because I want him to experience the mental anguish that it would bring. I have no desire to see LF physically tortured in a detailed and disguisting manner (had plenty of that with Ramsay Snow, thanks). BUT....given the havoc and horror that LF has either directly or indirectly caused throughout the series, having him go through a little bit of fear/mental stress before he dies is hardly overkill, imo.

Yes. LF caused too much havoc to get away scott free, I think. Not just to the Stark family, but to all of Westeros. There were simmering resentments before he came along, but not civil war and famine. Maybe he should have to face the starving smallfolk wondering where their bread is. (There still would be a woman with dragons who wanted her family's throne back, though...)

And LF meeting Lady Stoneheart - even just meeting her, not being killed by her - would be a perfect karma, because he's spent his lifetime being obsessed with Catelyn. OK, Petyr, you wanted Catelyn, now here she is...I hope for someone to have a POV if that happens.

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I don't think its wrong to wish for LF to meet Lady Stoneheart. This is does not necessarily equate with having a torture fantasy. For me, I'd like him to be faced with LS mainly because I want him to experience the mental anguish that it would bring. I have no desire to see LF physically tortured in a detailed and disguisting manner (had plenty of that with Ramsay Snow, thanks). BUT....given the havoc and horror that LF has either directly or indirectly caused throughout the series, having him go through a little bit of fear/mental stress before he dies is hardly overkill, imo. That said, GRRM rarely gives the villains such a 'neat' and tidy ending.....LF could die or be defeated without ever even realizing what is going on, but somehow I think (or hope) that such a significant player as he will at least know what is happening to him. If GRRM can have Varys 'taunting' (if it was that) Kevan Lannister while killing him, I'd hope LF could at least be taunted a bit before he dies (not necessarily by Sansa's hands!). Will it happen like that? Eh....who knows? :P

So, a little bit of mental torture is okay, but physical torture is going too far? Got it. I suppose that makes Cersei's walk of shame was all right, because she only experienced mental anguish during and after that episode, and wasn't physically injured.

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So, a little bit of mental torture is okay, but physical torture is going too far? Got it. I suppose that makes Cersei's walk of shame was all right, because she only experienced mental anguish during and after that episode, and wasn't physically injured.

Nah.....its just me being unrealistically hopeful that LF will get a traditional villain's 'ending'. Just a hope for a pure story-telling trope (forgive the rhyme). With Cersei, I did not actually view her as a villain getting her 'just desserts'.....that entire scene was horrifying to read, because it was both physical and mental assault on her as a WOMAN, and it really was NOT a just punishment. She did do bad things in the series, but that Walk of Shame was not a punishment for those things. It was actually a statement by the Faith saying: 'watch out, this is what happens to a queen/woman in power who strays. '

Totally unfair to compare a hypothetical situation with LF meeting Lady Stoneheart with Cersei's Walk of Shame, imo. :dunno:

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Nah.....its just me being unrealistically hopeful that LF will get a traditional villain's 'ending'. Just a hope for a pure story-telling trope (forgive the rhyme). With Cersei, I did not actually view her as a villain getting her 'just desserts'.....that entire scene was horrifying to read, because it was both physical and mental assault on her as a WOMAN, and it really was NOT a just punishment. She did do bad things in the series, but that Walk of Shame was not a punishment for those things. It was actually a statement by the Faith saying: 'watch out, this is what happens to a queen/woman in power who strays. '

Totally unfair to compare a hypothetical situation with LF meeting Lady Stoneheart with Cersei's Walk of Shame, imo. :dunno:

Well, there are many who do indeed view the Walk of Shame as just deserts. I think they are wrong. However, I would argue that the impulse to cheer or wish for a sadistic punishment, whether mental or physical, whether meted out in payment for a crime or inflicted upon a person for prejudicial reasons, must always be acknowledged to be distasteful. Moreover, I would say that a punishment cannot be just if its degree of severity is calibrated against some feeling of retribution; if it were so calibrated, the excessiveness of the punishment would only serve to satisfy bloodlust.

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I think I'm allowed to have my own little hopes for the ending of certain character's arcs, however unrealistic or 'distasteful' they may be to some. I have literally no feeling whatsoever for LF, other than loathing. That said, GRRM is the MASTER of making us readers feel things for previously-loathed characters, so if LF does meet some horrible demise, I can only image that reading it will not be nearly as 'satisfying' as we might hope it would be.

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Well, there are many who do indeed view the Walk of Shame as just deserts. I think they are wrong. However, I would argue that the impulse to cheer or wish for a sadistic punishment, whether mental or physical, whether meted out in payment for a crime or inflicted upon a person for prejudicial reasons, must always be acknowledged to be distasteful. Moreover, I would say that a punishment cannot be just if its degree of severity is calibrated against some feeling of retribution; if it were so calibrated, the excessiveness of the punishment would only serve to satisfy bloodlust.

The main reason why we want LF dead it is so Sansa can be free. So long he lives Sansa will continue to be locked. He has, metaphorically speaking, more then anyone, the key to the golden cage that keeps Sansa from setting her wings out and fly away. I want Sansa to chose her own path and life, and he stands in the way. That is imo more then enough justification of wanting him dead.

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I think I'm allowed to have my own little hopes for the ending of certain character's arcs, however unrealistic or 'distasteful' they may be to some. I have literally no feeling whatsoever for LF, other than loathing. That said, GRRM is the MASTER of making us readers feel things for previously-loathed characters, so if LF does meet some horrible demise, I can only image that reading it will not be nearly as 'satisfying' as we might hope it would be.

I don't think I said you weren't allowed to feel whatever you wanted with respect to certain characters. I'm not saying that it's bad to wish for certain characters' aspirations to fail, or that the use of violence to thwart nefarious schemes necessarily* is excessive, but I am saying that wishing for pain for pain's sake is the very definition of sadistic, even if some attempt is made at rationalization.

*But sometimes even the attempt to thwart a nefarious scheme is immoral, if its consequences are predictably awful. Almost all decisions to declare war in this series of books fall into this category; no matter how aggrieved or righteously justified the principal movers might feel they are, they still consign thousands to horrible deaths by declaring war.

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The main reason why we want LF dead it is so Sansa can be free. So long he lives Sansa will continue to be locked. He has, metaphorically speaking, more then anyone, the key to the golden cage that keeps Sansa from setting her wings out and fly away. I want Sansa to chose her own path and life, and he stands in the way. That is imo more then enough justification of wanting him dead.

A very disingenous reply. What was it you wrote earlier?

Stripping him of his title and exile him out of the vale so he will be under the mercy of shadowcats and even better.... lady stoneheart. In my opinion LF doesn't deserve the mercy of a quick death.

If you wish him dead so as to prevent him from causing more bloodshed, or so that Sansa can be free, fine. But that's not what you wrote, and that's not what I have been discussing in these past posts.

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I don't think I said you weren't allowed to feel whatever you wanted with respect to certain characters. I'm not saying that it's bad to wish for certain characters' aspirations to fail, or that the use of violence to thwart nefarious schemes necessarily* is excessive, but I am saying that wishing for pain for pain's sake is the very definition of sadistic, even if some attempt is made at rationalization.

*But sometimes even the attempt to thwart a nefarious scheme is immoral, if its consequences are predictably awful. Almost all decisions to declare war in this series of books fall into this category; no matter how aggrieved or righteously justified the principal movers might feel they are, they still consign thousands to horrible deaths by declaring war.

Well, thanks for calling me sadistic, when all I'm talking about is a hypothetical and admittedly somewhat unrealistic hope for LF's downfall. Which we've been discussing in relation to Sansa's arc in this thread for ages. :rolleyes:

ETA: Perhaps there is a way for LF to survive this mess and survive the series in general, and still allow for Sansa to come out from under his power. If so, great, but I cannot see LF living with the knowledge that Sansa outsmarted him and at least not be suffering mentally *somewhat* by that very knowledge. That is not being sadistic, that is just trying to figure out how else a storyline could possible end.

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Well, thanks for calling me sadistic, when all I'm talking about is a hypothetical and admittedly somewhat unrealistic hope for LF's downfall. Which we've been discussing in relation to Sansa's arc in this thread for ages. :rolleyes:

I said that wishing for pain for pain's sake is sadistic, not that you were a sadist. Do you disagree with my characterization? If you would care to dispute it, I promise that I would take it seriously. I will certainly retract that statement and apologize to you if you convince me I'm wrong; I think there's enough evidence in this thread and threads past that I'm willing to change my mind sometimes.

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A very disingenous reply. What was it you wrote earlier?

If you wish him dead so as to prevent him from causing more bloodshed, or so that Sansa can be free, fine. But that's not what you wrote, and that's not what I have been discussing in these past posts.

I admit I was a bit too colorful at how I would want Sansa to outsmart LF and him coming to his end :P. However I never stated in my previous posts WHY I want him dead. Like I said I want him dead because he is in the way of Sansa plus I want karma for all he has done. And like yourself said there is justification why I want him gone.

And Valkyrja I also can't imagine LF living further when Sansa escapes him grasp/outsmarts him.Simple because his obsession for Sansa is way to great.

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ETA: Perhaps there is a way for LF to survive this mess and survive the series in general, and still allow for Sansa to come out from under his power. If so, great, but I cannot see LF living with the knowledge that Sansa outsmarted him and at least not be suffering mentally *somewhat* by that very knowledge. That is not being sadistic, that is just trying to figure out how else a storyline could possible end.

Now you are mischaracterizing my position. Allow me to quote myself:

I'm not saying that it's bad to wish for certain characters' aspirations to fail

Were certain characters' aspirations to fail, that would almost necessarily entail some kind of discomfort, maybe even mental suffering. I have no objection to anyone wishing that LF fails, and there would certainly be uncomfortable personal consequences for him were that to happen, but I do think it's in poor taste to hope for him to actually suffer.

EDITED TO ADD: To be clear, I don't think it's wrong to hope for LF's demise, even if that would mean that he would suffer in some fashion. But that's NOT what I have been responding to.

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Well, there are many who do indeed view the Walk of Shame as just deserts. I think they are wrong. However, I would argue that the impulse to cheer or wish for a sadistic punishment, whether mental or physical, whether meted out in payment for a crime or inflicted upon a person for prejudicial reasons, must always be acknowledged to be distasteful. Moreover, I would say that a punishment cannot be just if its degree of severity is calibrated against some feeling of retribution; if it were so calibrated, the excessiveness of the punishment would only serve to satisfy bloodlust.

Daidalos, I found this comparison to be extremely disingenuous on your part. Wishing that LF meet his death at the hands of Lady Stoneheart is a desire for a kind of karmic justice. This can in no way be compared to Cersei who was subjected to a specific form of sexual humiliation deemed necessary by characters within the text. And Cersei was being punished for admitting to sleeping with men, not for the crimes she's actually committed against others. Personally, I've never heard anyone really expand on what they would like to happen to LF - someone who's responsible for more pain and misery than anyone else in this series - but I think what we all want is for him to really be made to feel whatever vengeance comes his way. Whatever form his punishment takes, and whoever delivers it, all I want is that it is satisfying in the end.

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Daidalos, I found this comparison to be extremely disingenuous on your part. Wishing that LF meet his death at the hands of Lady Stoneheart is a desire for a kind of karmic justice. This can in no way be compared to Cersei who was subjected to a specific form of sexual humiliation deemed necessary by characters within the text. And Cersei was being punished for admitting to sleeping with men, not for the crimes she's actually committed against others. Personally, I've never heard anyone really expand on what they would like to happen to LF - someone who's responsible for more pain and misery than anyone else in this series - but I think what we all want is for him to really be made to feel whatever vengeance comes his way. Whatever form his punishment takes, and whoever delivers it, all I want is that it is satisfying in the end.

I agree, brash. And there is absolutely nothing sadistic about that.....it is purely a wish for satisfying storytelling. Which GRRM doesn't always deliver, of course, at least not in the traditional way. So we will just have to see. :)

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I agree, brash. And there is absolutely nothing sadistic about that.....it is purely a wish for satisfying storytelling. Which GRRM doesn't always deliver, of course, at least not in the traditional way. So we will just have to see. :)

Yeah, and most people want Sansa to be the one to kill LF, and I don't think anyone of us expects Sansa to be sitting around flaying his toes one by one or anything like that. When it comes to LF, it's much more "appropriate" that he meets his demise at the hands of the family he's worked to personally fuck over.

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Daidalos, I found this comparison to be extremely disingenuous on your part. Wishing that LF meet his death at the hands of Lady Stoneheart is a desire for a kind of karmic justice. This can in no way be compared to Cersei who was subjected to a specific form of sexual humiliation deemed necessary by characters within the text. And Cersei was being punished for admitting to sleeping with men, not for the crimes she's actually committed against others. Personally, I've never heard anyone really expand on what they would like to happen to LF - someone who's responsible for more pain and misery than anyone else in this series - but I think what we all want is for him to really be made to feel whatever vengeance comes his way. Whatever form his punishment takes, and whoever delivers it, all I want is that it is satisfying in the end.

I objected to the tendency to relish the prospect of a horrible, unnecessary punishment. This relish exists among certain posters with respect to Cersei's ordeal, and among other posters with respect to some of the other less-than virtuous characters that populate the world of ASoIaF (e.g. Ramsay, LF, Gregor). In this sense, the comparison is fair, I think. I would also point out that many regard Cersei's walk as a form of karmic justice as well, even if it was administered by a religious zealot for reprehensible reasons. Furthermore, my understanding of karma is that it's supposed to ensure that a character's moral conduct has some kind of rebounding/teleological moral consequence, not that a character's specific crimes precisely and justly come back to bite them. Finally, I don't think you could claim that Lady Stoneheart's justice is much fairer than High Septon's.

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I agree, brash. And there is absolutely nothing sadistic about that.....it is purely a wish for satisfying storytelling. Which GRRM doesn't always deliver, of course, at least not in the traditional way. So we will just have to see. :)

"Satisfying storytelling" can be used to rationalize away all the horrific abuses that have been visited upon the various fallen villains of this series.

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Well, on the demise of LF, I must say that first of all I'd like to see him beaten at his own game and brought low.

I'd like to see him outwitted, somehow, by someone he doesn't expect (maybe Sansa, somehow). And then afterward...once he realizes he's been "found out", if he's to meet his death, while something "bloody" might be nice to fantasize about ( :devil:) , I'd like it to be something more.....elegant.

Something that will leave the instrument of his demise with "clean hands". ;)

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I objected to the tendency to relish the prospect of a horrible, unnecessary punishment. This relish exists among certain posters with respect to Cersei's ordeal, and among other posters with respect to some of the other less-than virtuous characters that populate the world of ASoIaF (e.g. Ramsay, LF, Gregor). In this sense, the comparison is fair, I think.

But that isn't what was taking place in this thread. By making such a comparison, you were trying to implicitly suggest that somehow taking joy in what happens to LF is the same as being happy for what happens to Cersei. This is what I am disputing. Wanting LF to be punished for his crimes is very different from experiencing glee over arbitrary punishment meted out to a character. I want Cersei to pay for her crimes just as much as anyone else, but what happened to her during the Walk of Shame was not justice.

I would also point out that many regard Cersei's walk as a form of karmic justice as well, even if it was administered by a religious zealot for reprehensible reasons. Furthermore, my understanding of karma is that it's supposed to ensure that a character's moral conduct has some kind of rebounding/teleological moral consequence, not that a character's specific crimes precisely and justly come back to bite them. Finally, I don't think you could claim that Lady Stoneheart's justice is much fairer than High Septon's.

Karmic justice entails someone getting what they deserve often via the same methods they've employed to do harm, or by a person they've particularly affected. This is why it would be nice karma if LF is brought down by Sansa, his pupil in the game. Many people might feel Cersei got what she deserved, but even with those views, we cannot assert that the person is bloodthirsty or being sadistic. And I do believe that we can consider Lady Stoneheart's justice to be fairer than the High Septon's, at least with respect to LF and Cersei. The HS wanted to teach Cersei a lesson, to bring her low and diminish her power. If Cat were to find out what LF did to her family, she would be directing punishment for real crimes done by this man. That's a world of difference in my book.

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