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Jon Snow is Azor Ahai (the text proofs)


Jon's Queen Consort

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Can I ask you what this passage mean (Melisandre POV):

"The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the hearthfire. One more time. She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R'hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument."

One more time? She had to be certain? What does that mean exactly? Does it mean she had seen Stannis in her visions, the first time she had prayed to see AA?

What it means, I believe (please don't hate me for this), is that Melisandre had uncertainty, and had to look just one more time to feel more certain. Unfortunately, what she saw (or didn't see) in the flames probably didn't help increase her certainty.

The feeling I got when reading her POV chapter was that she was starting to doubt that she was correct in guessing that Stannis is AAR. And I read this before ever going onto the forums and before hearing any theories about R+L=J, etc.

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It seems GRRM is leading us toward 3 different possibilities for AA. Dany (most evidence) Stannis (some evidence) Jon (some evidence). Is he tricking us? We will find out eventually. Then there is the question is AA and TPTWP the same person? Probably not. Best guess, 50%, Dany is AA and Jon is TPTWP. Mr. Martin sure stirs the pot well and he keeps us on our toes and he may completely shock us all.

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It seems GRRM is leading us toward 3 different possibilities for AA. Dany (most evidence) Stannis (some evidence) Jon (some evidence). Is he tricking us? We will find out eventually. Then there is the question is AA and TPTWP the same person? Probably not. Best guess, 50%, Dany is AA and Jon is TPTWP. Mr. Martin sure stirs the pot well and he keeps us on our toes and he may completely shock us all.

Martin says they are.

I think Dany turns out to be AA/PtwP while Jon plays Last Hero. Or Nissa Nissa-I'm not picky. :devil:

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Proof that Dany probably isn't AAR

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

So according to prophecies AAR is the Warrior of the Light in the war of the Dawn against Others and has "a flaming sword" Lightbringer and wakes the dragons from stone.

Those who believe Dany is AAR state that her dragons are the Lightbringer. But if those dragons are the ones she awakes from the stone isn't it strange that it's her "sword" at the same time. I know that there's no evidence that Lightbringer is not the stone dragons but, its formulated in a way that suggests the opposite...

Personnaly I want it to be Jon or Stannis but it mayhaps more than one person is AAR, as the Lightbringer could symbolicly represent Night's Watch.

This shows it with some quotes : http://www.the-mainboard.com/index.php?threads/azor-ahai-prophecy-crazy-spoilers-for-all-books.110363/

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Proof that Dany probably isn't AAR

So according to prophecies AAR is the Warrior of the Light in the war of the Dawn against Others and has "a flaming sword" Lightbringer and wakes the dragons from stone.

Those who believe Dany is AAR state that her dragons are the Lightbringer. But if those dragons are the ones she awakes from the stone isn't it strange that it's her "sword" at the same time. I know that there's no evidence that Lightbringer is not the stone dragons but, its formulated in a way that suggests the opposite...

Personnaly I want it to be Jon or Stannis but it mayhaps more than one person is AAR, as the Lightbringer could symbolicly represent Night's Watch.

This shows it with some quotes : http://www.the-mainb...l-books.110363/

I agree that it's difficult to believe that dragons are Lightbringer.

I see no reason why Lightbringer couldn't just be the Valyrian-steel sword that Jon already owns, but after some future event that involves fire. There's no reason there has to be yet another Nissa Nissa. That event already happened. Azor Ahai reborn does not have to do everything that Azor Ahai did in a previous life.

This kind of brings it back to the original post, which was about supporting arguments for Jon = AA. He already owns a sword that is made of Valyrian steel, which is probably synonymous with Dragonsteel, which is said to be very useful in fighting the Others.

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For Mel to figuratively say that she 'saw' something in her flames only means that she interpreted visions in her flames. We've seen this time and time again. Case in point: she 'saw' Jon's sister riding for the Wall in her fires. This is the same way (I believe) that she saw that Stannis was AA.

On the other hand, for her to literally see something, i.e. a vision in response to a very specific question, is completely different, because it is not something that she interpreted and is not subject to the same assumptions. She made a huge assumption here, that turned out to be false.

The word 'see' is confusing, because in our vernacular, it can be used literally and figuratively. See what I mean??

Are you agreeing with me that when Melisandre prayed to see AA in her fires on previous occasions, she saw an image of Stannis?

I must disagree. I think that when we try to understand the meaning of the text, we must realize that GRRM is using the language purposefully. At least in this particular case.

If Mel had said that she was searching for Stannis and she saw Jon Snow, it would be completely different than the actual case, when she asked to be shown AA, and got Jon Snow. She's just so set on Stannis being AA that she is disappointed in being shown images of the wrong person.

Again, I think GRRM's wording here is subtle, but very important. I think he purposely left the one 's' capitalized, and the other not capitalized, to show the very keen reader: AA --> Snow, and Stannis --> snow.

Actually, Melisandre asked to be shown Stannis before seeing fleeting images of Bran, Bloodraven, her past, Jon Snow etc. These were her exact words:

"Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument."

What it means, I believe (please don't hate me for this), is that Melisandre had uncertainty, and had to look just one more time to feel more certain. Unfortunately, what she saw (or didn't see) in the flames probably didn't help increase her certainty.

The feeling I got when reading her POV chapter was that she was starting to doubt that she was correct in guessing that Stannis is AAR. And I read this before ever going onto the forums and before hearing any theories about R+L=J, etc.

Why would I hate you for saying that?

Anyway, I also believe that Melisandre has her "doubts" (albeit very minor) that Stannis is Azor Ahai due to certain events. These "doubts" were also augmented, as you say, when she couldn't locate her king. However, I do not believe she guessed that Stannis is Azor Ahai. In her mind, Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn because she saw it in her flames and she read it in the prophecies. It is no guess. When she enquired about Azor Ahai before coming to the wall, she was shown glimpses of Stannis.

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I agree that it's difficult to believe that dragons are Lightbringer.

I see no reason why Lightbringer couldn't just be the Valyrian-steel sword that Jon already owns, but after some future event that involves fire. There's no reason there has to be yet another Nissa Nissa. That event already happened. Azor Ahai reborn does not have to do everything that Azor Ahai did in a previous life.

This kind of brings it back to the original post, which was about supporting arguments for Jon = AA. He already owns a sword that is made of Valyrian steel, which is probably synonymous with Dragonsteel, which is said to be very useful in fighting the Others.

If there is no Nissa Nissa, then where is the Lightbringer supposed to come from?

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Proof that Dany probably isn't AAR

So according to prophecies AAR is the Warrior of the Light in the war of the Dawn against Others and has "a flaming sword" Lightbringer and wakes the dragons from stone.

Those who believe Dany is AAR state that her dragons are the Lightbringer. But if those dragons are the ones she awakes from the stone isn't it strange that it's her "sword" at the same time. I know that there's no evidence that Lightbringer is not the stone dragons but, its formulated in a way that suggests the opposite...

Personnaly I want it to be Jon or Stannis but it mayhaps more than one person is AAR, as the Lightbringer could symbolicly represent Night's Watch.

This shows it with some quotes : http://www.the-mainb...l-books.110363/

I checked the link. Interesting one post thought Jon was named Aegon by R&L but Ned renamed him Jon to hide his identity. But if he had already named one son Aegon its doubtful he would use the name a second time. So many possibilities and so many opinions. Enjoy all the perspectivies.

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There's no reason there has to be yet another Nissa Nissa. That event already happened. Azor Ahai reborn does not have to do everything that Azor Ahai did in a previous life.

This. I don't think GRRM would have us so easily guess the outcome, i.e. "oh if Jon is AAR than I guess Val is Nissa Nissa, so bye bye Val." Unless of course AAR is Dany and Daario is her Nissa Nissa, then I'm all for it, except I'm pretty sure it is in fact Jon.

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Proof that Dany probably isn't AAR

So according to prophecies AAR is the Warrior of the Light in the war of the Dawn against Others and has "a flaming sword" Lightbringer and wakes the dragons from stone.

Those who believe Dany is AAR state that her dragons are the Lightbringer. But if those dragons are the ones she awakes from the stone isn't it strange that it's her "sword" at the same time. I know that there's no evidence that Lightbringer is not the stone dragons but, its formulated in a way that suggests the opposite...

Personnaly I want it to be Jon or Stannis but it mayhaps more than one person is AAR, as the Lightbringer could symbolicly represent Night's Watch.

This shows it with some quotes : http://www.the-mainb...l-books.110363/

“In the ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour, a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness will flee before him.”

--CoK, pg. 148

_______________________________________________________

“It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.” ASoS pg. 289

To be honest, both of these prophecies point to Daenerys.

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It is not difficult to consider the possibility that the dragons are the new Lightbringer when you examine the deliberate, conscious attempts by the author to make their origination (and the effects of their fire breath) fit as closely as possible with the Azor Ahai legend. Especially when you add in the fact that characters have noted that a magical sword, no matter how great, would always be more limited in power, specifically in comparison to dragons. There is no reason why the burning "sword" must be a literal sword. Various kinds of flaming weapon-like things/entities could technically fulfill that.

I suspect that one reason why Martin has avoided make the fire visions explicitly reveal the truth about the myth (at least as of yet) is to avoid having a plot hax make it so obvious that it is pointless to bother drawing for the reader any parallels. There are other ways that the answer could be made "obvious," but having the flames just say "X = Azor Ahai come again" would be one of the most extreme ways to do it.

The three slayer of lies scenes most likely suggest the following:

The lie that Stannis is AA, the lie used to gain Aegon the throne based on his supposed Targaryen lineage (possibly also more here as well), and the stone beast being a kind of counterfeit dragon. Daenerys, naturally, is best positioned to challenge each of these premises.

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ok here are two things we know

1. Lightbringer is a flaming sword.

2. Fire cannot harm the dragon.

Therefore, being able to weild lightbringer could be taken as proof you are a Targ. If R+L really does =J then lets take a look at J

Jon the stark from the icey north. Serves at the wall. Comes from the Kings of winter line.......the ice Jon.

Jon the targ. Fire in his blood. Cannot burn, wields burning sword. Blood of the dragon......the fire Jon.

His is the song of ice and fire.

Ofcourse in AGOT Martin makes it crytsal that he burns his hand, infact he mkes a point of but surely he's to be reborn and connect to his inner Targ and weild a burning sword proving his ligitimacy and winning support.

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Are you agreeing with me that when Melisandre prayed to see AA in her fires on previous occasions, she saw an image of Stannis?

No, the point is actually that we have no evidence that she ever saw Stannis when explicitly asking to see AA. The other point is that the word see can have different meanings. When a fortune teller 'sees' something in flames/tea leaves, etc., it doesn't always mean literally; it can mean figuratively (hence my joke, 'See what I mean?').

She saw AA reborn in her flames. She probably saw other details we do not know about, such as that she had a future in Westeros. She even admits in the text that she chose Dragonstone because its name fits the prophesy of dragons being awoken from stone. It just so happens that Stannis was in command of Dragonstone at the time, so he was chosen by default. The prophesy was then made to fit around him (e.g. she magicked a new Lightbringer for him).

Actually, Melisandre asked to be shown Stannis before seeing fleeting images of Bran, Bloodraven, her past, Jon Snow etc. These were her exact words:

"Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument."

Yes, Melisandre definitely wanted news on Stannis. She asked to see him in her flames. I don't see how this is supporting your argument though. Unless you are just pointing out that she believed him to be AA, which we already know to be true.

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ok here are two things we know

1. Lightbringer is a flaming sword.

2. Fire cannot harm the dragon.

Therefore, being able to weild lightbringer could be taken as proof you are a Targ. If R+L really does =J then lets take a look at J

Jon the stark from the icey north. Serves at the wall. Comes from the Kings of winter line.......the ice Jon.

Jon the targ. Fire in his blood. Cannot burn, wields burning sword. Blood of the dragon......the fire Jon.

His is the song of ice and fire.

Ofcourse in AGOT Martin makes it crytsal that he burns his hand, infact he mkes a point of but surely he's to be reborn and connect to his inner Targ and weild a burning sword proving his ligitimacy and winning support.

Just wanted to point out that Targaryens are not fireproof, and that GRRM has stated that Dany having walked into the fire and not getting burnt was a unique, magic-related event.

Reposting the link from earlier to an interview: http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

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ok here are two things we know

1. Lightbringer is a flaming sword.

2. Fire cannot harm the dragon.

Therefore, being able to weild lightbringer could be taken as proof you are a Targ. If R+L really does =J then lets take a look at J

Jon the stark from the icey north. Serves at the wall. Comes from the Kings of winter line.......the ice Jon.

Jon the targ. Fire in his blood. Cannot burn, wields burning sword. Blood of the dragon......the fire Jon.

His is the song of ice and fire.

Ofcourse in AGOT Martin makes it crytsal that he burns his hand, infact he mkes a point of but surely he's to be reborn and connect to his inner Targ and weild a burning sword proving his ligitimacy and winning support.

How will Jon be able to wield a burning sword? Hasn't his sword-hand already been burned by fire?

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Is it possible, that dany seems too obvious as AA, because the books ended up longer than should of been. If it was kept to the shorter series it was meant to be, dany being AA would not be too predictable because she would then shortly go to westeros and do her thing. But now, we got a lot more speculation due to the longer length of the books and over analysis? I mean, I want jon to be AAR cos I love him and kit is hot as ice but right now, dany fulfilled every bit of the prophecy

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How will Jon be able to wield a burning sword? Hasn't his sword-hand already been burned by fire?

From wikia: Lightbringer is the sword of Azor Ahai, a legendary hero who is prophesied to fight the Great Other. Lightbringer is thought to be a sword made of living fire. It is also known as the Red Sword of Heroes.[1]. Many believe the Legend of Lightbringer's creation is metaphorical, while others believe it is a physical sword. Possibilities:

I can see NW as Lightbringer

also in Jon’s dream:

Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again.
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