Jon Snow is Azor Ahai (the text proofs)

[Pugsley]

Unless, of course, Melisandre is lying about seeing Stannis as AA in the flames

She may not be lying, but she is likely misinterpreting. We don't know what the specific images are that she saw originally to lead her to Stannis.

[Third World King]

Does anyone notice the discrepancy? Does Melisandre mean she saw Snow as in Jon Snow the bastard or snow (ice falling) in her visions?

Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames. Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R' hllor shows me only Snow. "Devan," she called, "a drink." Her throat was raw and parched. - ADWD

___________________________________________________________

A wonder you haven' t had the poor man burned. All it would take was a word in the queen's ear, and Patchface would feed her fires. "You see fools in your fire, but no hint of Stannis?"

"When I search for him all I see is snow."

The same useless answer. Clydas had dispatched a raven to Deepwood Motte to warn the king of Arnolf Karstark's treachery, but whether the bird had reached His Grace in time Jon did not know. The Braavosi banker was off in search of Stannis as well, accompanied by the guides that Jon had given him, but between the war and weather, it would be a wonder if he found him. "Would you know if the king was dead?" Jon asked the red priestess.- ADWD

[Winterfellian]

Would you know if the king was dead?" Jon asked the red priestess.

"He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord's chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragon-stone is the place of smoke and salt."

There is your evidence. Unless, of course, Melisandre is lying about seeing Stannis as AA in the flames and is intentionally leading him on...

This only proves that Mel BELIEVES Stannis to be AA. It doesn't provide conclusive evidence of how she came to that conclusion in the first place, which was my argument in the first place. She might have seen AA doing all those things she said she's seen in her fires (freeing the world from darkness, fightning Others, etc..) but is assuming Stannis will be this figure because that is her interpretation of it. After reading her POV in ADWD I am convinced she is not purposely misguiding Stannis. She does believes he is the real thing.

Analyzing Mel's chapter in ADWD, when she is first glimpsing the fires she asked the following:

Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument

She doesn't receive any vision of Stannis. Most of them are very cryptic like the vision of bloodraven and the crumbling tower. Finally she sees Jon's face floating as if through a curtain and changing back and forth from a man to a wolf. Finally after reflecting on the price she paid for mastering her art she thinks to herself:

I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai and R'hllor shows me only Snow

This passage proves how very conditioned are fire visions and why there are many candidates filling the AA requirements according to the Red Priests. I have trouble associating Jon with the specific AA figure because is a figure that has seems to have very little to do with Westeros.

I am firmly convinced that the red priest's story of AA isn't all there is. We are missing pieces of the puzzle. This pieces will be filled when we have the full Westerosi version what was probable the original story.

[Winterfellian]

A wonder you haven' t had the poor man burned. All it would take was a word in the queen's ear, and Patchface would feed her fires. "You see fools in your fire, but no hint of Stannis?"

"When I search for him all I see is snow."

I actually think this works against the argument you are making. We don't know how she's been asking the question. However, if we take this literally we get the following:

Mel- Show me Stannis

Red God's vision- snow

Mel- Show me Stannis, your king, your instrumen, AA

Red's God's vision: Only Snow

[Third World King]

This only proves that Mel BELIEVES Stannis to be AA. It doesn't provide conclusive evidence of how she came to that conclusion in the first place, which was my argument in the first place. She might have seen AA doing all those things she said she's seen in her fires (freeing the world from darkness, fightning Others, etc..) but is assuming Stannis will be this figure because that is her interpretation of it. After reading her POV in ADWD I am convinced she is not purposely misguiding Stannis. She does believes he is the real thing.

Would you know if the king was dead?" Jon asked the red priestess.

"He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord's chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragon-stone is the place of smoke and salt."

Read the high-lighted part carefully. Melisandre claims to have seen Stannis as AA in her flames. It says so clearly in the text...

PS. If she has truly seen AA fighting the Others, then she would definitely know that it's not Stannis. But she has only seen Stannis when looking for AA, hence the firm belief that Stannis is indeed AA.

[Third World King]

I actually think this works against the argument you are making. We don't know how she's been asking the question. However, if we take this literally we get the following:

Mel- Show me Stannis

Red God's vision- snow

Mel- Show me Stannis, your king, your instrumen, AA

Red's God's vision: Only Snow

Actually no.

When she searches for AA, she is searching for Stannis.

When she asks to be shown AA (who she believes is Stannis), she is shown Snow. Later, when Jon Snow asks her if she has found Stannis (who she believes is AA), she said she sees only snow.

If you read ADWD chapter 30, it's all there...

"Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument."

a few seconds or minutes later...

"Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R' hllor shows me only Snow."

[The Wolves]

I think Dany might be AA. I know Barristein told Dany that a wood witch told her grandfather that TPTWP would come from the blood line of Dany's parents

[~LeTargaryen]

Jon won't fulfill the prophecy and be reborn as AA until he plunges his sword into the heart of the new Nissa Nissa and absorbs her essence. With Dany being Nissa, we can conclude that the true AA is actually a combination of Jon and Dany.

Jon will kill Dany oh noooooooooooo ='(

[Winterfellian]

I feel we're going on circles, so I just want to wrap out the points I was trying to make:

1. We don't know what specific visions or what specific question Mel asked the fires that led her to Stannis. The fact that the red priests have 2 candidates for AA shows that the manner in which you asked the questions and how you interpret the visions is very important and that the whole thing is very subjective. We don't know what specific visions led Mel to Stannis anymore than the specific visions that led Benerro and his followers to believe it is Dany. The passage you keep pointing out shows Mel BELIEVE Stannis is AA. Notice that in the paragraph you keep quoting Mel says: I have seen IT, not HIM. She's probably seen the event (It) - the AA figure leading the fight against darkness- but she is not saying she's seeing Stannis (him) specifically.

"He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord's chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames

Not to mention that in that paragraph Mel seems bend to convinced herself and not just Jon of what she had seen.

2. Again, we have such a complete ingredient list for AA (on which I think Dany fits the most requirements) but we are yet to know more about TPTWP and the Last Hero. This two seem to be the Westerosi myth of what happened when the Others first attacked while AA could be the Orientalized version of the same tale (Check the wiki; it basically states this same point). My problem with the AA Oriental version is that with its focused on fire it includes fire elements such as dragons and there is no evidence of dragons being used during the fight for the Dawn. It is stated that it was the COTF and the First Men who fight the Others in the first place and no mention of dragons has been made.

[Pugsley]

Maybe she saw Stannis wearing an "I'm Azor Ahai Reborn" T-shirt in her flames.

[Phillies Fan]

I believe the capital in Snow is significant because in Mel's POV we know she disbelieves AA is anyone but Stannis, thus her statement, "but the flames only show me Snow." Jon's transformation may even change Mel's beliefs of R'hllor and her religion since his soul is ice.

[Duir]

I feel we're going on circles, so I just want to wrap out the points I was trying to make:

1. We don't know what specific visions or what specific question Mel asked the fires that led her to Stannis. The fact that the red priests have 2 candidates for AA shows that the manner in which you asked the questions and how you interpret the visions is very important and that the whole thing is very subjective. We don't know what specific visions led Mel to Stannis anymore than the specific visions that led Benerro and his followers to believe it is Dany. The passage you keep pointing out shows Mel BELIEVE Stannis is AA. Notice that in the paragraph you keep quoting Mel says: I have seen IT, not HIM. She's probably seen the event (It) - the AA figure leading the fight against darkness- but she is not saying she's seeing Stannis (him) specifically.

Not to mention that in that paragraph Mel seems bend to convinced herself and not just Jon of what she had seen.

2. Again, we have such a complete ingredient list for AA (on which I think Dany fits the most requirements) but we are yet to know more about TPTWP and the Last Hero. This two seem to be the Westerosi myth of what happened when the Others first attacked while AA could be the Orientalized version of the same tale (Check the wiki; it basically states this same point). My problem with the AA Oriental version is that with its focused on fire it includes fire elements such as dragons and there is no evidence of dragons being used during the fight for the Dawn. It is stated that it was the COTF and the First Men who fight the Others in the first place and no mention of dragons has been made.

Hear hear :agree:

The probably had dragonglass to fight the Others with, and when Sam the Slayer kills the Other it's also described as melting if I remebered correctly.

And this time we probably will have dragons around, I still think that they have a part to play in the War with the Others.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

From Sansa, in Game of Thrones:

Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. But a voice inside her whispered, There are no heroes, and she remembered what Lord Petyr had said to her, here in this very hall. “Life is not a song, sweetling,” he’d told her. “You may learn that one day to your sorrow.” In life, the monsters win, she told herself, and now it was the Hound’s voice she heard, a cold rasp, metal on stone. “Save yourself some pain, girl, and give him what he wants.”

Meaningful? A red herring? Jon certainly granted Sansa her wish. . . . . .

:agree: Thank you! I had forgotten that one. This is my favorite Sansa's scene...as much as I dislike Sansa this scene is a great scene...and is a huge foreshadowing imo.

[butterbumps!]

I'm with Pugsly and Winterfellian on this. I don't think that the Snow/ snow is as much of a slam-dunk as is being portrayed here.

I think that there is a good chance Dany is AAR, in terms of the R'hllor interpretation of the requirements. Too obvious? Well, as Pugsly said earlier, who's to say that AA as the Reds describe him is necessarily the hero here, and a Westerosi hero at that? I think that this is the big "twist," so to speak-- that we're set up to believe AAR is a savior and a hero, and that Dany fits this mold most obviously-- but that AA has a much different connotation or purpose than the role of the hero that will actually save Westeros.

My preferred theory is that AA was the founder of Valyria, that is, that AA was a conqueror who first tamed dragons and overthrew the Ghiscari empire-- brought them "out of darkness" to the "enlightened" Valyrian Empire. I think that the legend of the Last Hero may have been carried to Essos, and some similar language was applied to this AA figure. It's similar to how in our universe attributes from mythic characters sometimes influence the description of other figures from different cultures even though the nature of this new figure is different than the previous one (an easy example is the influence of Dionysian cults on the figure of Christ- similar traits, but much different "purposes" and meanings in their interations).

I think this makes a lot of sense in terms of the overall structure of the story as well, and where I think Dany's arc may be heading. I think that Dany has the potential to bring a civilization currently suffering from "darkness" (in a metaphoric sense) into the light-- that is, become a Nymeria-type figure leading people to form a new Empire (I'm thinking of all those freed slaves who want her to rule them, and I don't think she's done with uniting the Dothraki yet either). To this end, I actually think she has the ability to bring "light" to a group of people and be their savior; this also brings a form of reconciliation to the oppression brought by Valyria the first time, and also reconciles the large part of her arc that deals with her need to find a "home." (ETA: and might be foreshadowed by the fact that so many of the fervent followers of R'hollor are slaves).

I don't think Jon needs to be AA, as I think this figure points to something very different than what's before him. It also doesn't short-change his importance in any way. He's the one who can fight the Others (as opposed to the army of wights). He's the one who can rally the North. He's the one I think will fulfill the role of savior as it pertains to the magical battle that's coming (the literal Battle for the Dawn). I think the story needs 2 different kinds of heros- one who can restore magical balance and one who will lead the downtrodden to freedom (which is, essentially, Dany's arc).

[Third World King]

I feel we're going on circles, so I just want to wrap out the points I was trying to make:

1. We don't know what specific visions or what specific question Mel asked the fires that led her to Stannis. The fact that the red priests have 2 candidates for AA shows that the manner in which you asked the questions and how you interpret the visions is very important and that the whole thing is very subjective. We don't know what specific visions led Mel to Stannis anymore than the specific visions that led Benerro and his followers to believe it is Dany. The passage you keep pointing out shows Mel BELIEVE Stannis is AA. Notice that in the paragraph you keep quoting Mel says: I have seen IT, not HIM. She's probably seen the event (It) - the AA figure leading the fight against darkness- but she is not saying she's seeing Stannis (him) specifically.

Not to mention that in that paragraph Mel seems bend to convinced herself and not just Jon of what she had seen.

Can I ask you what this passage mean (Melisandre POV):

"The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the hearthfire. One more time. She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R'hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument."

One more time? She had to be certain? What does that mean exactly? Does it mean she had seen Stannis in her visions, the first time she had prayed to see AA?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

After reading what Mel is seeing in her falmes:

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half- seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him.

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow...

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.

and considering that:

R+L=J, he has the blood of the dragon.

He has "reforge" Lightbringer aka the Wall.

He sacrificed his love for Ygritte for his duty.

It's pretty clear to me that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai reborn, the Prince that was Promised!

[plurabel]

I think that whoever ends up fulfilling the role of AAR will do so mostly because all difficult battles need leaders. I don't believe GRRM would write such a messianic prophecy intending for it to be fulfilled to the letter. in all cultures, prophecies and messiahs are mostly iconic representations of things that had to happen one way or the other. for drastic change to happen there is usually a leader figure. so I agree with butterbumps above in the sense that dany seemingly has an important leadership role as does jon but I don't think any specific religion's prophecy will need to fit either one exactly. everything you can use words to express is subject to interpretation. you can make any similes you like and interpret sense into them. everything is like everything and in endless ways... paraphrasing donald davidson. analogies, allegories, metaphors, similes, comparisons... they probably exist the way they do because of the way we conceptualise the world and make sense of it cognitively. we sort of need to be able to talk of x in terms of y to make sense of how things work. that is very handy for prophecies, archetypes etc. to me it's very cool about GRRM's work that he seems to be heading into that direction what with all the different religions and promised saviours and prophecies: that they're all made of the same stuff of real life... that metaphor is just the language of nature (to paraphrase greg bateson - can't claim ownership of all these cool ideas) and whatever actually happens can be made sense of within that framework.

[Darkstar of Dayne]

The more and more that I read the book and this forum, the more and more I realize something -

There are 3 dragons... not 1.

If there was 1 dragon, then of course it would make sense that Dany is Azor Ahai because she woke the dragon from the stone by forging a fire from her love's life and she is the liberator of slaves. Also, she was born on Dragonstone, the place of smoke and salt.

But there are 2 more dragons, and I believe that there will be THREE Azor Ahai figures:

• Jon + Melissandre
  
• Dany + Marwyn
  
• Victarion + Moqorro
  

There is a lot of dislike for Victarion, and I too disliked him upon first reading, but upon rereading his chapters a few times, I realized that he has a sense of true, but twisted honor and he is not cruel within his own beliefs. He's just a badass and a battle-hardened general with the Valyrian dragon horn. When he finally sounds it, Rhaegal or Viserion will come to him and he will ride it into battle destroying the Volantene fleet. As for his "being born in smoke and salt", he was born once in the ocean for the Drowned God and in smoke again by Moqorro.

As for Jon, he is the only one who can organize a force to defeat the true enemies, and he has dreams of vanquishing a great army of dead people. Melissandre repeatedly has visions of Jon Snow, even though he's initially not really important to Melissandre's goal. The problem with Jon is that he's, well, stabbed at the moment.. probably dying, and we won't see his real "rebirth" until the next book. His first birth was a sad affair with Lyanna dying and being all sad and Ned being sad he couldn't have done more, so that might be the salt and we'll have to see the smoke in the next book.

Together, the 3 Azor Ahais will be able to hold back the armies of the Other and defeat their ice spiders and wights.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The more and more that I read the book and this forum, the more and more I realize something -

There are 3 dragons... not 1.

If there was 1 dragon, then of course it would make sense that Dany is Azor Ahai because she woke the dragon from the stone by forging a fire from her love's life and she is the liberator of slaves. Also, she was born on Dragonstone, the place of smoke and salt.

But there are 2 more dragons, and I believe that there will be THREE Azor Ahai figures

What the dragons have to do with Azor Ahai?

[Third World King]

The more and more that I read the book and this forum, the more and more I realize something -

There are 3 dragons... not 1.

If there was 1 dragon, then of course it would make sense that Dany is Azor Ahai because she woke the dragon from the stone by forging a fire from her love's life and she is the liberator of slaves. Also, she was born on Dragonstone, the place of smoke and salt.

But there are 2 more dragons, and I believe that there will be THREE Azor Ahai figures:

• Jon + Melissandre
  
• Dany + Marwyn
  
• Victarion + Moqorro
  

There is a lot of dislike for Victarion, and I too disliked him upon first reading, but upon rereading his chapters a few times, I realized that he has a sense of true, but twisted honor and he is not cruel within his own beliefs. He's just a badass and a battle-hardened general with the Valyrian dragon horn. When he finally sounds it, Rhaegal or Viserion will come to him and he will ride it into battle destroying the Volantene fleet. As for his "being born in smoke and salt", he was born once in the ocean for the Drowned God and in smoke again by Moqorro.

As for Jon, he is the only one who can organize a force to defeat the true enemies, and he has dreams of vanquishing a great army of dead people. Melissandre repeatedly has visions of Jon Snow, even though he's initially not really important to Melissandre's goal. The problem with Jon is that he's, well, stabbed at the moment.. probably dying, and we won't see his real "rebirth" until the next book. His first birth was a sad affair with Lyanna dying and being all sad and Ned being sad he couldn't have done more, so that might be the salt and we'll have to see the smoke in the next book.

Together, the 3 Azor Ahais will be able to hold back the armies of the Other and defeat their ice spiders and wights.

Would you know if the king was dead?" Jon asked the red priestess.

"He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord's chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragon-stone is the place of smoke and salt."

Daenerys awoke 3 dragons out of stone, that is, Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal.