Does Melisandre see Snow or snow?

[danm_999]

Jon Snow did not know she had prayed to see Azor Ahai. He thought she had prayed to see Stannis, hence his question:

"A wonder you haven' t had the poor man burned. All it would take was a word in the queen's ear, and Patchface would feed her fires. "You see fools in your fire, but no hint of Stannis?"

But he knows it's an answer she's given when she's previously been asked for predictions/advice.

See, Melisandre's influence works in a couple of ways; by building leverage with accurate predictions, and by trying to manipulate people into believing they're significant and that she's the conduit to their destiny. By admitting she can no longer see much but Jon's face in the fire, she's liable to look like either incompetant, or that her "visions" are simply an exercise in pandering to the highest ranked person around, in this case Jon.

By making an innocuous remark that she sees snow, she's protecting her influence. We know she's seeing Jon Snow. There's no ambiguity about that in her chapter.

[Third World King]

But he knows it's an answer she's given when she's previously been asked for predictions/advice.

See, Melisandre's influence works in a couple of ways; by building leverage with accurate predictions, and by trying to manipulate people into believing they're significant and that she's the conduit to their destiny. By admitting she can no longer see much but Jon's face in the fire, she's liable to look like either incompetant, or that her "visions" are simply an exercise in pandering to the highest ranked person around, in this case Jon.

By making an innocuous remark that she sees snow, she's protecting her influence. We know she's seeing Jon Snow. There's no ambiguity about that in her chapter.

So, why does she admit to Jon Snow that she sees fools in her visions, instead of Stannis?

[danm_999]

...bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

I believe that vision concerns Daenerys and Daario [also includes her dragons].

That's a very gutsy prediction, since you have to cut off the "Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist," part of the vision. It's not really the only possibility either. She may be seeing Qarl and Asha for example, which explains all the skull and death imagery, since they're having sex during a battle, and would make more sense as a vision if she's trying to see what's happening vis a vis Stannis.

[danm_999]

So, why does she admit to Jon Snow that she sees fools in her visions, instead of Stannis?

Her exact words are "many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames", which doesn't indicate whether it's a vision she's currently experiecing or experienced in the past.

[Kittykatknits]

That's a very gutsy prediction, since you have to cut off the "Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist," part of the vision. It's not really the only possibility either. She may be seeing Triss and Asha for example, which explains all the skull and death imagery, since they're having sex during a battle, and would make more sense as a vision if she's trying to see what's happening vis a vis Stannis.

Are you thinking of Qarl here?

[danm_999]

Are you thinking of Qarl here?

Yeah I got my Ironborn tertiary characters crossed here.

[ServantOnIce]

Does anyone notice the discrepancy? Does Melisandre mean she saw Snow as in Jon Snow the bastard or snow (ice falling) in her visions?

First she claims to see Snow after asking for a vision of Azor Ahai, but later when talking to Jon Snow, she claims to have seen snow when looking for Stannis (who she believes is AA) in her fires. What does this mean?

Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames. Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R' hllor shows me only Snow. "Devan," she called, "a drink." Her throat was raw and parched. - ADWD

___________________________________________________________

A wonder you haven' t had the poor man burned. All it would take was a word in the queen's ear, and Patchface would feed her fires. "You see fools in your fire, but no hint of Stannis?"

"When I search for him all I see is snow."

The same useless answer. Clydas had dispatched a raven to Deepwood Motte to warn the king of Arnolf Karstark's treachery, but whether the bird had reached His Grace in time Jon did not know. The Braavosi banker was off in search of Stannis as well, accompanied by the guides that Jon had given him, but between the war and weather, it would be a wonder if he found him. "Would you know if the king was dead?" Jon asked the red priestess.- ADWD

Forget that, she's seeing SNOW!!!

http://youtu.be/NtILxBszyf8

[Third World King]

That's a very gutsy prediction, since you have to cut off the "Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist," part of the vision. It's not really the only possibility either. She may be seeing Qarl and Asha for example, which explains all the skull and death imagery, since they're having sex during a battle, and would make more sense as a vision if she's trying to see what's happening vis a vis Stannis.

That's how I interpreted that vision; it was Daenerys and Daario. Anyway, the point is that Melisandre did not see the bastard boy, Jon Snow only when she did her "looking into the fire praying for AA" thingy. She saw Bran, Bloodraven and other folks too.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

That's how I interpreted that vision; it was Daenerys and Daario. Anyway, the point is that Melisandre did not see the bastard boy, Jon Snow only when she did her "looking into the fire praying for AA" thingy. She saw Bran, Bloodraven and other folks too.

So you mean that her God shows her AA only as Jon Snow, hence Jon is AAR.

[Third World King]

Forget that, she's seeing SNOW!!!

http://youtu.be/NtILxBszyf8

I am informed now!

[butterbumps!]

That's how I interpreted that vision; it was Daenerys and Daario. Anyway, the point is that Melisandre did not see the bastard boy the Last Hero, Jon Snow only when she did her "looking into the fire praying for AA" thingy. She saw Bran, Bloodraven and other folks too.

1. Fixed that for you.

2. Not so sure that's Daario and Dany.

3. She sees people/ objects that will have importance in some capacity.

4. She sees Jon, ergo he has importance in some capacity

[Third World King]

So you mean that her God shows her AA only as Jon Snow, hence Jon is AAR.

When Melisandre prayed to her master to see AA, she saw:

• Daenerys and Daario
  
• Bran and Bloodraven.
  
• her past as a slave being sold at slavers bay.
  
• Jon Snow
  

You take your pick. :D

[Jon's Queen Consort]

When Melisandre prayed to her master to see AA, she saw:

• Daenerys and Daario
  
• Bran and Bloodraven.
  
• her past as a slave being sold at slavers bay.
  
• Jon Snow
  

There is nothing to show for sure that it was Dany and Daario, it could be anyone.

Bran is the strongest person in the earth and bloodraven and they may be in league with the Others.

:bowdown: Jon Snow is Azor Ahai reborn, the Prince that was Promised! :bowdown:

[Tagganaro]

That's how I interpreted that vision; it was Daenerys and Daario. Anyway, the point is that Melisandre did not see the bastard boy, Jon Snow only when she did her "looking into the fire praying for AA" thingy. She saw Bran, Bloodraven and other folks too.

Sigh...If you actually want to have serious discussions with people and want them to take you seriously, you might want to stop doing this. It's pointless to refer to Jon as this as it accomplishes nothing but being mildly irritating and offensive, which I'm sure you know.

Anyway, Mel is the one who has the thought. There's no trickery there, Mel thinks to herself I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hollor shows me only Snow. I think it's rather obvious which Snow this is referring to. Now you can argue about her telling Jon that all she sees is snow, that's left ambiguous, but I really don't see how you can argue with Mel's own POV thought that she asks for AA and all she sees is Snow/"the bastard" if that makes it easier for you to understand.

[Ariane Martell]

About what Melisandre sees, " Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against hard blue sky"

There's clearly something about Dany since " Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against hard blue sky" is talking about Drogo showing. But I don't think the rest is related only to Dany's arc.

Here's what I think:

" Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist[...]" is about Bran's arc, the cave where 3EC lives. And the "skulls that turned to mist" is referring to skinchaging and how someway the skulls, and all the cave actually, affects this kinda magic.

"[...]bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing[...]" Could be Dany and Daario, or Asha and Qarl, or the least likely Jorah and the whore who looked like Dany. I think it's probably Asha and Qarl, notice how it's described almost like a fight scene. After their love scene there was the battle against Stannis' men. But the chance of being Dany is pretty high since she's the most important of them but latter there was already a Dany's arc vision. why two about Dany?.

But my point is. Are theses visions about differences characters related or they're just random? And why would Mel need to see it? What is R'hllor trying to say to her?

[Third World King]

Sigh...If you actually want to have serious discussions with people and want them to take you seriously, you might want to stop doing this. It's pointless to refer to Jon as this as it accomplishes nothing but being mildly irritating and offensive, which I'm sure you know.

If anyone is irritated by the use of the word "bastard", they need to stay away from the ASOIAF series and the internet. I'm using the term in the archaic sense as GRRM does in the books. Jon is Eddard Stark's bastard, don't really see how it is offensive to say that.

For example:

"What do you see, my lady?" the boy asked, softly.

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow.- Melisandre ADWD

Are you offended by that passage in ASOIAF?

[butterbumps!]

Ok, it's time to look at that passage as it actually reads:

Show me Stannis, Lord. Show me your king, your instrument.

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. [We know these are the rangers the Weeper kills; this is a NW-centric image] Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. [she later says that it's Eastwatch, but we know this doesn't match what she sees. They are towers she does not recognize (which means they are not Dragonstone, either, btw) Personally, I think it may be Pyke] Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing [This is also unconfirmed, but the 2 images- skulls and sex- are intertwined. We don't know how many bodies are in lust (it may be more than 2 people having sex), but this is linking death and sex, and I believe this speaks more the Winterfell crypts than Dany and Daario, i.e. the skulls there, as well as the truth of the sex between Lyanna and Rhaeger that's his true heritage; Skulls may also reference the Golden Company, which we know is heading to Westeros, and those writhing bodies could refer to the carnage of war rather than sex] Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky [This sounds like dragons]

The girl. I must find the girl again, the grey girl on the dying horse...A girl as grey as ash, and even as I watched she crumbled and blew away.

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled. [she shudders, blood trickles, she hears voices-- "Melony, Lot Seven."]

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained. [This seems to portend Hardhome].

Death. The skulls are death.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half seen behind a fluttering curtain. [interestingly, she hears his name before she sees him. I think that the appearing-disappearing might portend his losing consciousness] Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. [Note that Bran is portrayed as a boy with a wolf's head, whereas Jon becomes the wolf] But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. [Mel thinks skulls="death"= danger, but I think this might portend a journey to the reaches of Winterfell's crypts rather than danger] Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen. [i'd like to point out that "daggers in the dark" have never been confirmed as the actual vision. She sees skulls and assumes it's danger; "daggers in the dark" is her "spin" on it]

[danm_999]

If anyone is irritated by the use of the word "bastard", they need to stay away from the ASOIAF series and the internet. I'm using the term in the archaic sense as GRRM does in the books. Jon is Eddard Stark's bastard, don't really see how it is offensive to say that.

The pinned topic at the top of this forum might give you an indication of why people balk at Jon being called a bastard.

[Third World King]

The pinned topic at the top of this forum might give you an indication of why people balk at Jon being called a bastard.

Well, I'm not one of those people.

[Tagganaro]

If anyone is irritated by the use of the word "bastard", they need to stay away from the ASOIAF series and the internet. I'm using the term in the archaic sense as GRRM does in the books. Jon is Eddard Stark's bastard, don't really see how it is offensive to say that.

For example:

"What do you see, my lady?" the boy asked, softly.

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow.- Melisandre ADWD

Are you offended by that passage in ASOIAF?

lol. ASOIAF takes place in the middle ages or at least a facsimile of it, I'd like to think we're more evolved than that.

According to the books, a lot of people are a lot of things, including offensive names and such. Yet very few people on these boards (or none to be honest) feel the need to go around calling them by those names because it's "authentic" or whatever. Calling someone a bastard is offensive, especially in the way you always try to use it with regards to Jon. I really don't care either way...I'm not gonna lose sleep over this, if you feel the need to refer to him as a "bastard" constantly then go ahead. I'm just saying it probably makes people less likely to take you seriously (as I do whenever I see it) and just serves to anger anyone to the point where they are tempted to call other characters names, "because that's what they are according to the books" or whatever you're trying to say.