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Does Melisandre see Snow or snow?


Third World King

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Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing [This is also unconfirmed, but the 2 images- skulls and sex- are intertwined. We don't know how many bodies are in lust (it may be more than 2 people having sex), but this is linking death and sex, and I believe this speaks more the Winterfell crypts than Dany and Daario, i.e. the skulls there, as well as the truth of the sex between Lyanna and Rhaeger that's his true heritage; Skulls may also reference the Golden Company, which we know is heading to Westeros, and those writhing bodies could refer to the carnage of war rather than sex] Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky [This sounds like dragons]

As I have stated before, I clearly believe that the skulls and bodies locked in lust refer to Daenerys and Daario. The skulls could be referring to the battle that waits outside the gates of Meereen or the deaths of those afflicted by the bloody-flux.

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Well, I'm not one of those people.

Well until you present a compelling counter argument to the R+L=J theory, don't be surprised or become indignant that people on these forums mock/criticise you calling Jon a bastard.

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Well, I'm not one of those people.

Calling Jon "the bastard" is unnecessarily disparaging, because you're clearly using the term to make a jab at his character/ dismiss him. If you want to keep doing it, be my guest, but it adds a petty tone to your posts that undermines whatever points you're trying to make (as it does to the characters who use "the bastard" to pettily torment Jon).

If you truly do not believe R+L, then I think certain aspects will be difficult for you to reconcile in terms of prophesies and visions, as so much is based on this being true. Why do you believe Jon's just Ned's bastard? How do you reconcile the promise to Lyanna, the Kingsguard at the TOJ, the blue flower growing in a chink of ice, the fact that Ned never thinks of Jon as his son, the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

As I have stated before, I clearly believe that the skulls and bodies locked in lust refer to Daenerys and Daario. The skulls could be referring to the battle that waits outside the gates of Meereen or the deaths of those afflicted by the bloody-flux.

Yes, that's one interpretation, and I offered another way of looking at it. The point is that this image is not confirmed.

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Well until you present a compelling counter argument to the R+L=J theory, don't be surprised or become indignant that people on these forums mock/criticise you calling Jon a bastard.

So, is the R + L = J hypothesis purported as a fact in these parts?

“You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”

“Wylla, yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like...”

Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”- Game of Thrones.

There is my evidence . :drunk:

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So, is the R + L = J hypothesis purported as a fact in these parts?

“You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”

“Wylla, yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like...”

Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”- Game of Thrones.

There is my evidence . :drunk:

Not to turn this into an R+L thread, but that is not even remotely "evidence" of Jon's being Ned's son. Have you ever read any of the pinned R+L threads?

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Ok, it's time to look at that passage as it actually reads:

Show me Stannis, Lord. Show me your king, your instrument.

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. [We know these are the rangers the Weeper kills; this is a NW-centric image] Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. [she later says that it's Eastwatch, but we know this doesn't match what she sees. They are towers she does not recognize (which means they are not Dragonstone, either, btw) Personally, I think it may be Pyke] Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing [This is also unconfirmed, but the 2 images- skulls and sex- are intertwined. We don't know how many bodies are in lust (it may be more than 2 people having sex), but this is linking death and sex, and I believe this speaks more the Winterfell crypts than Dany and Daario, i.e. the skulls there, as well as the truth of the sex between Lyanna and Rhaeger that's his true heritage; Skulls may also reference the Golden Company, which we know is heading to Westeros, and those writhing bodies could refer to the carnage of war rather than sex] Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky [This sounds like dragons]

The girl. I must find the girl again, the grey girl on the dying horse...A girl as grey as ash, and even as I watched she crumbled and blew away.

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled. [she shudders, blood trickles, she hears voices-- "Melony, Lot Seven."]

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained. [This seems to portend Hardhome].

Death. The skulls are death.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half seen behind a fluttering curtain. [interestingly, she hears his name before she sees him. I think that the appearing-disappearing might portend his losing consciousness] Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. [Note that Bran is portrayed as a boy with a wolf's head, whereas Jon becomes the wolf] But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. [Mel thinks skulls="death"= danger, but I think this might portend a journey to the reaches of Winterfell's crypts rather than danger] Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen. [i'd like to point out that "daggers in the dark" have never been confirmed as the actual vision. She sees skulls and assumes it's danger; "daggers in the dark" is her "spin" on it]

Interesting...I kind of forgot about the bodies locked together in lust. I'm not sure I would buy that it's Dany and Daario either, her visions seem to be pretty Westeros-centric and pretty much isolated to the North for the most part. Also, doesn't really seem like something remotely important that she would be seeing with all those other things, which seem far more important (kind of similar to how I doubt the Ghost of High Heart was referring to Sansa ripping up Sweetrobin's doll with her slaying the giant vision). That being said, I'm wonder why seeing anyone having sex would be important to her, so your interpretation might make sense, considering Mel's penchant for error in how she interprets things.

Definitely on board with the towers representing Pyke as well. Some stuff is about to go down in Pyke, preferably with some krakens involved.

Her vision of man-wolf-man definitely seems to clearly indicate that Jon will warg into Ghost for a period of time after his "assassination" while his body recovers.

Finally, the interesting thing about the "daggers in the dark" is that earlier in ADWD Mel tries to tell Jon that he has enemies, and that she knows their names. This would indicate far more knowledge than just seeing skulls. Of course, Mel is forever lying to and manipulating people in positions of power to try and secure her place as a trusted confidant, so who knows what she meant by this.

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Calling Jon "the bastard" is unnecessarily disparaging, because you're clearly using the term to make a jab at his character/ dismiss him. If you want to keep doing it, be my guest, but it adds a petty tone to your posts that undermines whatever points you're trying to make (as it does to the characters who use "the bastard" to pettily torment Jon).

If you truly do not believe R+L, then I think certain aspects will be difficult for you to reconcile in terms of prophesies and visions, as so much is based on this being true. Why do you believe Jon's just Ned's bastard? How do you reconcile the promise to Lyanna, the Kingsguard at the TOJ, the blue flower growing in a chink of ice, the fact that Ned never thinks of Jon as his son, the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

1. I'm calling Jon Snow a bastard, because he is a bastard (in archaic terms).

2. Ned says Jon is a bastard. I believe him.

Until you have evidence that Jon Snow is not a bastard, I will hold on to my beliefs. Thank you.

Yes, that's one interpretation, and I offered another way of looking at it. The point is that this image is not confirmed.

I agree. However, I will stick with my interpretation in the mean time.

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So, is the R + L = J hypothesis purported as a fact in these parts?

“You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”

“Wylla, yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like...”

Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”- Game of Thrones.

There is my evidence . :drunk:

You might be astonished to find this evidence has been discussed at length in the R+L=J threads. I suggest you give them a browse.

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I find it curious that the dragon-obsessed Mel sees dragons in her flames, but she barely registers them.

When Bran was in his coma he also had a vision of dragons, only his were flying under the shadow of Asshai, iirc.

I like to think that Bloodraven and Bran are screwing with Mel's visions, although I don't have any evidence of this. Anyway, She thinks Stannis is Azor Ahai, but Stannis thinks he's the rightful king of Westeros. But many people think that Bloodraven skinchanges into Mormont's raven, and Mormont's raven calls Jon "King." There can be only one! The weather static acts as interference with Stannis and Mel's master plan (although I really want Stannis to liberate Winterfell).

In her POV it's revealed that Mel doesn't/won't/can't sleep because the Enemy sends messages in dreams. The Three-eyed Crow appears in dreams, weirwood seems to send prophetic dreams as well. It seems to me that Mel is cutting herself off from a great source of prophecy.

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In the one case, Melisandre saw a variety of scenes. She may have commented on the Snow one since it appeared last and seemed to alert her to an impending danger to one of Stannis's key allies. However, it was not the only vision she saw and was one among many.

None of these scenes themselves seem related in an obvious way to her original question. Unless one considers it a certain fact that R'hllor does indeed exist and consciously guides adepts, it cannot be ascertained for sure that the flame seeker's question always gets a relevant response. It could be the case that subtle unconscious factors or disruptions lead to visions that are detours from the question but are important in some other way to the viewer.

There is no clear-cut pattern to the pictures other than that they are all related to significant plot developments. None of them show an obvious transformation of a person into an Azor Ahai state. Imo, GRRM does not want the flames to provide a straightfoward answer of the AA/PTWP issues to the reader, hence in part why the various red priests do not agree about the candidate. There are hints that the use the flames to gather information about the Azor Ahai prophercy, however there is significance to the fact that the direct issue of "Identify Azor Ahai" hasn't happened on-screen. That is one reason to question whether these visions really had anything to do with the prophecy rather than being hints about coming plot events.

The second case was likely related directly to Stannis's situaton and the difficulty of ascertaining what his fate will become.

I think that the Snow vision points toward Jon surviving in a warged Ghost until his body is somehow healed/revived. Perhaps Bran will gain the ability to restore him if a blood sacrifice is made at a heart tree or maybe Melisandre will use the kiss of life. I suspect that there may be a hidden price for either Jon or Bran if Bran and Bloodraven do pull such a deed off.

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  • 7 months later...

This is exactly how I interpreted it. In Melisandre's POV she is referring to Jon Snow simply as "Snow" for short, as evidence by the capitalized S. In Jon's POV Melisandre is also referring to Jon Snow simply as "snow" but since Jon is assuming she is referring to the winter precipitation snow, it is not capitalized in Jon's POV.

AGREED capital S- name.
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Interesting...I kind of forgot about the bodies locked together in lust. I'm not sure I would buy that it's Dany and Daario either, her visions seem to be pretty Westeros-centric and pretty much isolated to the North for the most part. Also, doesn't really seem like something remotely important that she would be seeing with all those other things, which seem far more important (kind of similar to how I doubt the Ghost of High Heart was referring to Sansa ripping up Sweetrobin's doll with her slaying the giant vision). That being said, I'm wonder why seeing anyone having sex would be important to her, so your interpretation might make sense, considering Mel's penchant for error in how she interprets things.

Definitely on board with the towers representing Pyke as well. Some stuff is about to go down in Pyke, preferably with some krakens involved.

Her vision of man-wolf-man definitely seems to clearly indicate that Jon will warg into Ghost for a period of time after his "assassination" while his body recovers.

Finally, the interesting thing about the "daggers in the dark" is that earlier in ADWD Mel tries to tell Jon that he has enemies, and that she knows their names. This would indicate far more knowledge than just seeing skulls. Of course, Mel is forever lying to and manipulating people in positions of power to try and secure her place as a trusted confidant, so who knows what she meant by this.

She see's a hard blue sky, which is mentioned in Meereen several times. I'm pretty sure the towers by the see are the tower Euron takes..doesn't she say they fall before a black and bloody tide and black and bloody describe Euron

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It's a discrepancy because it's coming from two seperate POVs.

The capitalised "Snow" comes from Melisandre's POV, where she remarks she not only sees Jon's face, but the fire actually whispers Jon Snow to her.

The non-capitalised "snow" comes from Jon's POV, and is his interpretation of her words; he thinks she's talking about physical snow.

This

But it would be funny if R'llor is like DAMN THIS BITCH DOESN'T GET IT, JON SNOW IS A DUDE. MAYBE IF I SHOW HER SNOW FALLING SHE WILL MAKE THE CONNECTION

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It's quite possible that she sees snow (the weather) and is just beginning to interpret it as meaning Snow (the person).

Fortunately, the OTHER famous Snow in the north (Ramsay) no longer bears that surname.

Although if she's looking for Stannis and only seeing snow (as in the weather), it could be symbolic that Stannis will be conquered either by the weather... or by Ramsay Snow (Bolton). Which would make the Pink Letter have more truth than most of us seem to want it to.

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