Lyanna Stark (The Hypocrite)?

[houseHB]

I remember there being a passage in one of the books, do not remember which that Lyanna tells I think Ned the reason she does not want to marry Robert is because of his whoring ways. Then she herself goes off with a man she knows full well is already married to Elia. So I ask you all is Lyanna the biggest hypocrite for not marrying Robert because he would cheat on her, then runs off and possibly starts an affair with a married man?

[danm_999]

It's not yet super clear whether Lyanna went willingly or not. We probably have to establish that before we can call her hypocritical.

[Lady B Pudding]

Yeah she is a hypocrite if in fact she willingly ran off.

[NotSoSilentSister]

There's also the possiblity that Rhaegar and Elia had a somewhat open relationship. The Dornish seem to be open-minded about these things and the Targs have a history of polygamy.

But even if not, there's always the issue of quantity. One weak moment in a passionate affair does not equal trying to f*ck everything that's not on a tree by the count of three.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Also, fidelty might not have been the big issue for Lyanna after all, but what else could she have said? "He's just not doing it for me?" She needed some kind of rationalisation. In a society that does not allow for honesty in certain regards, you can't blame people to much for a little hypocrisy.

[Independent George]

But even if not, there's always the issue of quantity. One weak moment in a passionate affair does not equal trying to f*ck everything that's not on a tree by the count of three.

I'm not 100% convinced he never tried it with those sexy, sexy trees either.

[Blisscraft]

I'm not 100% convinced he never tried it with those sexy, sexy trees either.

I've always wondered about that boar, too. He wanted to "stick his spear" in it.

[NotSoSilentSister]

On further consideration, I'll take that "quantity"-objection back, don't want to sound as if I'm slut-shaming Robert. One should seperate the issues of fidelity and promiscuity. Still, being a bit uncomfortable with Robert's high libido would be a fairly relateable motivation for Lyanna to be concerned - not necessarily for moral, but for pragmatic reasons. Relationships usually work better if both partners have a compareable level of libido - huge disparities in that regard rarely lead to good things.

[Lummel]

If Bob wanted to sleep with every woman but Lyanna only was interested in Rhaegar then where is the hypocrisy? In anycase it takes two to tango...

[Helgar]

Even though I would really hate it if Lyanna really ran off with Rhaegar (which seems the most plausible scenario... :( ), the truth is that Robert had expressed interest in Lyanna, then went and slept around; Lyanna, however, was not interested in Robert so she had no moral obligation to be faithful to him before they got married. There is no hypocrisy there I think.

However, it is heavily frustrating for me to think that Lyanna turned down Robert exactly because he would be cheating on her, then ran off with Rhaegar, ignoring the fact that he was cheating too, just not on her. It's just... so unfair. >:-( Justice for Elia, damnit! Death to the cheating bastards and the evil murderers!

[Lyanna Stark]

I take offence at being called a hypocrite! :P

[Quentyn Baratheon]

I take offence at being called a hypocrite! :P

You'd rather be a Cersei? :P

[Lady Winter Rose]

Lyanna might be in love with Raeghar at Harrenhall, but I think she didn't ran off with him. I think he kidnapped her.

[ARYa_Nym]

She wanted a man who would stay in her bed. Rhaegar most likely did. He just didn't stay in Elia's. Lyanna wanted a man to be faithful to her.

[Queen Cersei I]

It's not yet super clear whether Lyanna went willingly or not. We probably have to establish that before we can call her hypocritical.

Another thing we have to establish:

How Elia Martell felt about the whole ordeal.

The way I see it, her feelings on the matter could have ranged from conscious agreement and approval, to utter disapprobation and horror. She may have been an agreeing collaborator, agreeing to the whole thing and actually helping Lyanna and Rhaegar plan it out. And before one objects that this is so utterly inhuman as to be improbable, keep in mind the unique situation:

a. Elia's marriage was arranged. It is noted that Rhaegar was fond but not in love with her. Should we really assume that Elia herself was desperately in love with her husband, since all wives must be? Or simply because he was so handsome/ perfect, that every woman he comes across must adore him? Isn't it possible that Elia, like Rheagar, was "fond", but not overwealmingly in love, and, thus, felt less possessive of Rheager than many of us would feel of our romantic mates? Wouldn't it be possible that she saw him as more her friend and an individual whom she was partnered with for dynastic reasons, rather than someone whose romantic attentions she wanted exclusively for herself?

b. Elia's had produced only one heir, but her health was ailing and wouldn't allow her to have a second child. As the queen, Elia is basically a brood mare. She must bring forth Rheagar's sons into the world; this is her main job. In the past, it was generally considered necessary for a woman to have two children-- an heir and a "spare." Elia has only born one male child, and can't bear another. The pressure on her must have been tremendous; and I imagine it was accompanied by a certain dissaproval by some that she couldn't "fulfill her duties." (Jon Connington reflects upon Elia's inability to bear more children, and sees her as "unworthy" of Rhaegar.)

In such a scenario, having Lyanna, a healthy young woman to bear more children for her husband, may have seemed like a relief to Lyanna. Of course, the issue of Elia's own children being threatened may have come up, however, it seems likely that Rhaegar would have promised Elia that her firstborn child would get the preference. Furthermore, most people familiar with Lyanna could probably guess that she was good natured, and not interested in murdering/ usurping Elia's children from their rightful place on the throne.

Overall, Lyanna's desire to marry a man capable of fidelity was utterly normal. However, was her feeling discomfort with the prospect of Robert cheating on her, then running away with another woman's husband, evidence of hypocrisy on her part?

Again, I'd say that the answer depends upon Elia's attitude towards Rheagar running off with (and presumably making a second marriage to) Lyanna. Though it would seem improbable, given the unusual scenario, I'd actually say that Elia being generally approving-- even, heck, a knowing collaborator in the whole thing-- does not seem impossible. GRRM does love to subvert expectations, and every single POV we've heard of thus far generally seems to overlook Elia, dismiss her as insignificant, or view her as a woman who is weak/ unworthy/ unable to hold onto her man.

It would be if amusing if GRRM overturned these expectations by making Elia someone who not only approved of, but was a participant in Rhaegar and Lyanna's choice to run off together.

Remember the location of the tower of joy-- the Dornish mountains. And who'd know Dorne better than Elia? I've always suspected that she had a hand in providing Rhaegar and her new "sister wife" a place to run off to and hide out in.

[Rhaquentis]

Another thing we have to establish:

How Elia Martell felt about the whole ordeal.

The way I see it, her feelings on the matter could have ranged from conscious agreement and approval, to utter disapprobation and horror. She may have been an agreeing collaborator, agreeing to the whole thing and actually helping Lyanna and Rhaegar plan it out. And before one objects that this is so utterly inhuman as to be improbable, keep in mind the unique situation:

a. Elia's marriage was arranged. It is noted that Rhaegar was fond but not in love with her. Should we really assume that Elia herself was desperately in love with her husband, since all wives must be? Or simply because he was so handsome/ perfect, that every woman he comes across must adore him? Isn't it possible that Elia, like Rheagar, was "fond", but not overwealmingly in love, and, thus, felt less possessive of Rheager than many of us would feel of our romantic mates? Wouldn't it be possible that she saw him as more her friend and an individual whom she was partnered with for dynastic reasons, rather than someone whose romantic attentions she wanted exclusively for herself?

b. Elia's had produced only one heir, but her health was ailing and wouldn't allow her to have a second child. As the queen, Elia is basically a brood mare. She must bring forth Rheagar's sons into the world; this is her main job. In the past, it was generally considered necessary for a woman to have two children-- an heir and a "spare." Elia has only born one male child, and can't bear another. The pressure on her must have been tremendous; and I imagine it was accompanied by a certain dissaproval by some that she couldn't "fulfill her duties." (Jon Connington reflects upon Elia's inability to bear more children, and sees her as "unworthy" of Rhaegar.)

In such a scenario, having Lyanna, a healthy young woman to bear more children for her husband, may have seemed like a relief to Lyanna. Of course, the issue of Elia's own children being threatened may have come up, however, it seems likely that Rhaegar would have promised Elia that her firstborn child would get the preference. Furthermore, most people familiar with Lyanna could probably guess that she was good natured, and not interested in murdering/ usurping Elia's children from their rightful place on the throne.

Overall, Lyanna's desire to marry a man capable of fidelity was utterly normal. However, was her feeling discomfort with the prospect of Robert cheating on her, then running away with another woman's husband, evidence of hypocrisy on her part?

Again, I'd say that the answer depends upon Elia's attitude towards Rheagar running off with (and presumably making a second marriage to) Lyanna. Though it would seem improbable, given the unusual scenario, I'd actually say that Elia being generally approving-- even, heck, a knowing collaborator in the whole thing-- does not seem impossible. GRRM does love to subvert expectations, and every single POV we've heard of thus far generally seems to overlook Elia, dismiss her as insignificant, or view her as a woman who is weak/ unworthy/ unable to hold onto her man.

It would be if amusing if GRRM overturned these expectations by making Elia someone who not only approved of, but was a participant in Rhaegar and Lyanna's choice to run off together.

Remember the location of the tower of joy-- the Dornish mountains. And who'd know Dorne better than Elia? I've always suspected that she had a hand in providing Rhaegar and her new "sister wife" a place to run off to and hide out in.

I agree with this, Elia knew everything and supported Rhaegar's obsession with the prophecy and the 3 heads of the dragon. Aegon would be the Prince That Was Promised and his only heir, and Rhaegar's child with Lyanna would just serve as one of the dragon riders.

[Franz95]

I remember she didn't say that she didn't wanted to marry him, it was only a remark I think... she was saying "Robert can't keep to the same bed" just as she might have said "Robert should wear his beard longer". And Rhaegar... well, that was a moment of weakness, it can happen when the Prince of Dragonstone (who was also the most beautiful men ever to put his feet on solid ground, blah, blah, blah) declares that you're the most beautiful woman in the seven kingdoms.

[Independent George]

I've always wondered about that boar, too. He wanted to "stick his spear" in it.

You'd sacrifice a beautiful woman for a moderately attractive boar?

[TalalOfDorne]

Well Lyana never really wanted Robert and never married him so was she really a hypocrite?

As for Rhaegar, well like what NotSoSilentSister said the Targaryens have a history of polygamy. Correct me if im wrong but didnt Aegon I have two sister wives?

[Failed to De-anon]

If Lyanna did indeed go willingly with Rhaegar, then yes, she would be a hypocrite. It's not exactly a perfect analogy but if she did run away with Rhaegar is as if someone complained about another person's smoking and then took a job offer from Philip Morris.

Yes, Robert had bastards, but, so did other nobles, even married ones. Is it fair? No, but, since when is Westerosi custom fair? Just because one party does it doesn’t mean you do it right back. And this wouldn’t have just done right back, she also would have spit in the face of her father’s wishes for her (which is important in that culture), and caused problems between Robert & Ned’s friendship had everyone known Lyanna went willingly with the married-father-of-two Rhaegar.

And yes, the Targaryen's practiced polygamy in the past, that doesn't give one's license to practice it in the present, especially, when it's not like Rhaegar himself was the the King. It might have been palatable if he was king, considering Westerosi culture, but even then it would only be marginally acceptable if the person in question that he wanted to practice polygamy was not promised to another Lord Paramount and the current king wasn't one known for trying to take liberties (as with Tywin's Joanna), and if the current situation was one where everything including the current kings relationship to his nobles was good accross the board. But, that clearly was not the case here.

But, getting back on topic, Rhaegar is more at fault because he was older; still, Lyanna wasn’t a child by Westerosi standards. if Lyanna was old enough to be entered into a marriage contract with Robert and was old enough to know that she didn’t want to marry Robert, she’s also old enough to know that love or not, involving oneself with an older married, father of two, is not exact a good thing, because Tina put it best, “What’s love got to do with it?”

As to whether Elia was ok with it, what proof do we have that she was? Just because Rhaegar says he need a third head for his dragon? Or that she’s from Dorne? What proof do we have that Elia believes the prophesy at all? As to the Dornish issue, the people we’ve seen (Oberyn & Ellaria, Ashara) were not married to other people, so what exactly are we using to justify that any Dornish person might be ok with their legal spouse having someone on the side or marrying someone else, as well?

Just because a person, Elia or otherwise, was in an arranged (we don’t know if it was loveless) marriage and is from an apparently sexually freer culture doesn’t mean that a person (a princess who begot royal heirs) will be thrilled or accept that your husband publically declares his love for someone else or brings someone into their lives that could beget potential rival claimants to your children’s legacy (if the bastards of the Blackfaire rebellion tried, if Lyanna and Rhaegar did marry, this would be even more of a potential threat).

If the situation was reversed and Lyanna was the one whose husband brought someone else into their marriage, or if he cheated on her during their marriage would she be ok with it? If the answer was no, then, she definitely would be a hypocrite.