Ice and Fire Assessment...Theory (Long Read)

[kissdbyfire]

Dear OP

I just wanna add, to the part about the night king giving his seed to the white walker girl and her taking her soul (ICE magic), also has a FIRE magic counterpart: we see thoros of myr ressurecting beric time and time again, and he "lost weight"; we saw stannis giving his seed to melisandre twice to make 2 shadow babies, and he looked AGED (maybe his "soul" was taken?). Also, remember Stannis & Mel voodoo to get rid of the other kings with the leeches draining royal blood, and how she wanted to kill Edric Storm (robert's bastard with royal blood).

For me, the only source of magic is what I call "life force", which can be materialized in blood for some rituals, or on some more un-materialized stuff like thoros' kiss of life.

I just wanna say I've always subscribed to this idea that magic was all one thing, being first men, cotf, valyrian, lhazareene or whatever other there are. Ice and Fire are just two sides of the same coin.

I don't believe for a second Mel killed Balon, Robb, and Joff with the leeches trick. I think she saw those deaths in her fires and used this knowledge to convince Stannis and the rest that she's more powerful than she actually is.

[Peko]

As of right now, Bran is more associated with the Magic of the Dark than Jon Snow is. It will probably become really obvious if we find out that Bran Stark is actually Bran the Builder...

Sorry, I don't think I quite I understand what you mean by this. Do you mean that our little PoV Bran is one and the same with the Bran the Builder who built the Wall? Would you care explaining this further?

As for the original post, I thought it was outstanding. It's as if you took my most basic ideas of the series resulting in Bran (Ice) vs. Dany (fire) and filled in all of the blanks while adding a large amount of substance. Aside from the part that you made me start to think that perhaps Theon (my favorite) will die soon after all.

I admit, I never thought of Jon as being the mediator/connection between the two sides, and it sounds so obvious now. I do agree with you that he's not going to be the stereotypical hero by getting Bran and Dany to simply hug it out in the end. If this assassination attempt does anything to him, I think it'll make him a harder individual, doing whatever needs to be done in order for the ultimate goal to be achieved. This could include killing whoever stands in the way of the balance between Ice and Fire. I do expect him to have a smallish band of followers, perhaps Tormund and company, to help achieve whatever this may be, perhaps.

Meanwhile, I'm also led to wonder what a balance between Ice and Fire would mean. Would it mean an eradication of magic? If that were the case, it would satisfy the goal of the Citadel. And who's at the Citadel? Jon's good friend Sam, who I could definitely see persuading Jon to take up the cause of the maesters. I've always imagined that the eradication of magic would figure into the ending, but I was never sure how until perhaps now. Having this ending is very fitting, I think, as it would bring the seasons to a normal cycle and allow the societies to finally progress after thousands of years in a complete standstill.

Just typing this out only makes me wonder how GRRM can possibly conclude the series in two books. There's a nearly insurmountable amount of plots and developments that have yet to be resolved, let alone begin.

[The Snowman]

Just wow.

Just awesome!

[Été]

Both of the First Men-Valyrian mixtures we've seen have been bastards, wargs, and gone on to command the Night's Watch.

Bloodraven was in the black cells when Egg took the throne - could he have asked to go to the Wall? He doesn't strike me as the prophecy-driven kind, but might have recognised the need for someone like himself on the front lines if/when the Long Night returned. Bloodraven is old now, and he's pretty firmly aligned himself with Ice, so Jon is the only one who can really fill the role.

[The Great Cornholio!]

Ice and Fire Assessment

Look at the Valyrians and First Men and a speculation of their history and purpose

A lot of what I will type many of us already believe, but I wanted to organize everything into one theory.

There is nothing more interesting in the series to me then the dualism between the history of the First Men and Valyrians and yes, I believe that this is one of the several meanings behind the title : Song of Ice(First Men) and Fire(Valyrians). It is a dance, a song between these two blood lines.

Make no mistake about it. In the simplest form of this story, everything is about Bloodlines. In particular the blood of Old Valyria and the Blood of the First Men. Unlike the boring Andals (Sorry I just had to), those two bloodlines are special in this world. However, I want to emphasize the dualism and the parallels between the two cultures very closely to show that this song started with them and will end with them. Clashing is inevitable and this is nowhere near the first time these two bloodlines have clashed.

Origins:

The First Men’s origins are tied to the Children of the Forest (COTF). 10-12,000 years ago the First Men crossed the land bridge that connected Essos to Westeros. They began fighting the COTF and chopping down weirwoods in order to gain dominance in Westeros. They fought for thousands of years (An example of inaccurate history). Eventually, a truce was made. The COTF kept to the forest, hills, tunnels, etc and the First Men essentially gained everything else. They also agreed not to cut down anymore heart trees, which was probably a big deal. For 4,000 years they seemed to live peacefully side by side more or less.

The Valyrian’s origins are tied to the Dragons. They were shepherds living on the Valyrian peninsula. Peaceful people I’m guessing. At least 5,000 years ago (I’d say closer to 6,000) they stumbled upon the fourteen fires and discovered Dragons and their lairs. They began teaching, training and taming the Dragons and eventually began to ride them.

Notes:

- The First Men stumbled across the COTF; the Valyrians stumbled across Dragon lairs

- The First Men ‘tamed’ or conquered the COTF; The Valyrians tamed or ‘conquered’ the Dragons

- Notice the time difference. Although the time periods are most likely inaccurate, it should be safe to assume that the First Men left Essos and conquered Westeros long before the Valyrians discovered the Dragons. This is an important distinction that I will come back to later.

What happens to these two cultures on the rise has to do with their ‘bonding’ with their…partners for a lack of a better word.

Blood Sacrifice:

The First Men seem to somewhat assimilate into the ways of the Children. They begin praying to the trees and worshipping the Old Gods, which was the culture of the COTF. However, I also believe they learned something else from the COTF. Blood Sacrifice.

It is never really stated that the Children or the First Men practiced Blood Sacrifices, but it is hinted at.

1.) Bran sees a flashback, thousands of years old in which he sees a Blood sacrifice given before the heart tree

2.) The Turnkey tells Ser Davos about the story of Brandon Ice Eyes(Will come back to this) Stark giving slavers to their slaves and then decorating a heart tree with their entrails as a blood sacrifice to the Old Gods.

3.) Many believe (Not me) that Bran is eating Jojen’s blood as a paste to heighten his powers

4.) Bran also seems to be desperate to get Theon to the Heart tree. Maybe his sacrifice will awaken the trees/powers like in eons past? Pure speculation but the power of royal blood is emphasized over, and over and over in this series.

5.) There are many, many scattered bones of beasts, COTF and humans scattered all over the tunnels of the Last Greenseer. Could they really have been eating them? Blood Sacrifice? Decorations?

I find it hard to believe that the First Men adopted the Old Gods from the Children, but that they invented the Blood Sacrifice all by themselves. Just to be sure we are on the same page, when I say Blood Sacrifice I mean the sacrifice of a life. When Bran sees the sacrifice through the eyes of the heart tree they slit the person’s throat.

The Valyrians are slightly more straight forward. The words for the Targaryans, the offshoot descendants of the Valyrians, are “Fire and Blood”. At first glance many of us would assume that means ‘Hi, we are Targaryans. We will conquer you with fire and spill your blood, yadda, yadda, yadda.’ However, what if these words are based on the origins of their power? A certain sacrifice that was needed in order to bind the Dragons to their blood? This did not become apparent until we learned of the Dragon Horn that Euron Greyjoy ‘found’.

When you blow the Dragon Horn supposedly the nearest(?) Dragon will be yours. There is a catch however… Whoever blows the horn will die! In fact, the Dragons do not come to the one who blows the horn. Instead they come to the one who has actually bound the Dragon’s horn to himself via Blood. (e.g. Victarion Greyjoy). This is an immediate blood sacrifice for the binding of Dragons and requires deception or force. It actually implies that in order for you to bind a Dragon to yourself, someone has to sacrifice him/herself. No wonder the Valyrians had slaves. Blood Sacrifice, just like the First Men.

They bound the Dragons to their Blood to such an extent that their race forever has a connection with them. Even Brown Ben Plum who has just a little Valyrian blood seems to be well liked by Dany’s Dragons.

Once they bound the Dragons to their blood they would forever shed the persona of the peaceful shepherds and become the Dragon Lords, the Blood of the Dragon(Literally). This is a blood sacrifice for unification. It makes you wonder how this initially started. Who was the first poor fool to blow the horn? Then after that, did the Valyrians trick any poor peasant to blow the horn kind of like how Victarion is doing to the three poor fools on his vessel? (On a side note, I believe the initial sacrifices had to do with unification. The Dragon Horns IMO were used to help tame/ride Dragons)

It also raises more questions. If the Valyrians used Blood Sacrifices to bind/unify Dragons to their blood, then what did the First Men use the Blood Sacrifices for? What/Who were they trying to unify with?

This actually leads me into my next point (Bare with me)

Blood Magic:

The First Men lived with the COTF for a long time is relative peace. They adopted their customs and Gods. Blood Sacrifices were probably a part of their cultures. However, the First Men also started receiving new gifts from their agitated neighbors. The Children had many magical powers that are beyond belief (Destroying the land bridge from Essos to Westeros and also trying to separate the North for the South at the Neck.) However, one can say that they mainly have two magical gifts: Skinchanging/warging and Greenseeing. They could talk to and ‘influence’ trees and animals. They could see time through the eyes of a heart tree and could see across vast distances.

Based on what we know on present situations and recent history, it would seem that anyone who has the blood of the First Men in his veins has the potential to be a skinchanger or greenseer.

e.g.

-Varmyr (As well as other wildlings and it seems to be pretty common beyond the wall)

-Stark Kids

-Blood Raven

-Jojen Reed (Seems like Greenseers have been fairly common amongst the crannogs)

Andals, that make up a majority of the population in Westeros, do not seem to have these abilities. It’s no secret that the Children of the Forest and the First Men share these magical traits, the question is how? Could they have interbreeded? It is a possibility. (I believe that the crannogs are descendants of First Men and COTF interbreeding). However, I think that it is a higher possibility that it is some form of blood magic since it seems to be so prevalent in ancient times. Similar to how they are trying to ‘awaken’ Bran’s powers in the Cave(Jojen’s Paste!). Maybe Royal Blood also plays a key to it. Maybe the ‘Pact’ between the COTF and First Men entailed more than just sharing land, maybe they desired to share abilities. I doubt it was mutual gain as the COTF clearly got the worst end of the deal.

This is all pure speculation, but I am forming a theory based on the increasing evidence that blood sacrifice was prevalent, royal blood means something, and that the accuracy of history is tainted. (Especially the whole COTF are sweet, cuddly and lovable while the White Walkers are evil!).

It would seem that despite the formation of opposing sides to this ‘magic’ that they are actually a part of the same overall manifestation with different interpretations. And whether Valyrian or First Men, your magic is based in blood.

Notes: Incestial Marriages:

-Given the importance of the blood lines, it makes a lot more sense for the Valyrians to practice incestial marriages and trying their best to keep the bloodlines pure. If you water down the bloodlines by mating with outsiders, the power within the magic also decreases.

-This also gives reasoning to why the Starks rarely married anyone who wasn’t of First Men descent (There were many reasons for this, but bare with me).

So why do it? Why even go through the sacrifice to gain powers beyond your understanding? Greed? It could be, but I somehow doubt that the Valyrian Shepherds were trying to dominate the world. It’s more realistic for me to believe that maybe the Valyrians did it as a desperate way to survive. The Ghiscari Empire was on the Valyrians doorstep. It could’ve been that they were pushing to try and control Valyria. The Valyrians discovered the Dragons, fought back and eventually defeated the the Ghiscari Empire. In fact that is the first we hear of the Valyrian Freehold – when they are battling the Ghiscar. It wasn’t until they defeated that great empire that they truly became the Blood of the Dragon and decided to expand their territory.

Ice and Fire:

The Valyrians began discovering how strong their magic was ‘after’ they bound themselves to the Dragons and soon they began to hone their ‘fire’ magic.

1.) They were incredible builders and they formed wonderful towers from their fire magic that stretched to the heavens. (Dragonstone is a good example)

2.) They made glass candles that could peer across the heavens and communicate with someone from afar. Sound familiar?

3.) As beings, they became more tolerable to intense heat (Not invulnerable, don’t jump on me)

4.) Valyrians also were known for having prophetic dreams

I also believe the First Men eventually binded themselves to a force for survival. I talked about how they adopted the COTF Old Gods as well as blood rituals. However, they never inherited the title as Kings of Winter from the Children. The COTF are associated with nature in general, but the only force that is synonymous with Winter are the White Walkers. Even though all descendants of the First Men have the potential to become skin changers or greenseers, it was only the Starks that were called the Kings of Winter from the very beginning and they also seem to have a greater talent for the ability to skin change or greenseeing. How did this happen? I believe the Long Night and the story of the Last Hero can hint at this.

Long story short, the First Men were getting their asses kicked by the White Walkers as well as the Winter itself. The Last Hero leads a team deep into the woods to try and find the reclusive COTF to see if they have any kind of magic to help them turn the tide. He searches for years and his entire team dies. Last we see of him he is struggling, crawling to get away from his winter specters with his broken sword...and then Old Nan is cut off. There are only a few things that could’ve happened:

1.) The COTF save him

2,) He dies

3.) He fights off the White Walkers

4.) Something totally different.

-History isn’t accurate. I understand that later on Bran thinks that the Children save him but, the Children literally have no motivation to help this human. Hell, they probably watched his entire team die over the years while looking for them, so why help him now? Pity? Yes because ASOIAF is full of characters who pity. The way Old Nan described the story it sounded as if the COTF left the humans to die. We’re talking about a race of magical beings that tried to cut the continent in half to stop the invasion, do you think they would grow sympathetic because the humans are ‘brave’? They abandoned them. Bottomline, I do not believe they helped. If he died right then and there we wouldn’t be talking about him now. Considering that he has a broken sword, freezing and starving I believe it is safe to say that he didn’t go all Aragorn. What if he made some sort of deal with the White Walkers? What if it was one last plea for help for the safety of his life? Was it an ‘If you can’t beat them, join them’ mentality? Pure speculation, but what is known is that once the Long Winter was over the Starks were declared the Kings in the North and the Kings of Winter. The Stark ancestors were not the only people in the fight. Evidently the Boltons were there is well, so why give a title of such magnitude to the Starks? Could it be that the men who would become the Starks were the ones that conquered the Long Winter? Makes sense to me. In fact the seat of the Starks is called ‘Winterfell’ and I doubt it’s just because it’s a cool name. It honestly wouldn’t surprise me if we come to find out that the White Walkers were called the the Kings of Winter before the Starks. Who wouldn’t call them the Kings of Winter during the Long Winter?

Regardless, after the Long Night, the Starks became synonymous with Winter as well as the powers of ‘Ice Magic’. Brandon the Builder, who eventually became Brandon Stark, seem to possess these powers. He built Winterfell and the Wall, both of which that we know are intertwined with magic (I say blood Ice magic). The Wall was built allegedly to keep the White Walkers out and after witnessing characters like ‘Coldhands’ unable to cross over it, I believe this is true. Even though the abilities to Skinchange and greensee were traits that all First Men seem to possess, it would seem that the Starks became the champions and figureheads of these powers. In the crypts of Winterfell there seem to be many Kings and Lords that have effigies of themselves and their pet direwolves, which means that warging into a Direwolf was probably a staple of the Starks and probably the reasoning for the origins of their sigil. A theorist on Westeros.org months ago stated that he believed the reason why the Boltons started to skin their enemies and then wear their skins is because they were trying to mimic the Skinchanging skills that the Starks possessed. It’s a brilliant theory. After reading a few Dunk and Egg stories people in years past seemed to fear the Starks way more than they do in the present. No doubt they were probably feared a lot more before they became mere Lords.

Just a recap of the powers of ‘Ice’:

The Starks began discovering how strong their magic was ‘after’ they bound themselves to the White Walkers and soon they began to hone their ‘ice’ magic.

1.) They were incredible builders and they formed The Wall and Winterfell with their ice magic

2.) They were able to skinchange into animals and heart trees and through their eyes they could peer across the lands, seas and skies and communicate with someone from afar. Sound familiar?

3.) As beings, they became more tolerable to intense winter (Not invulnerable, don’t jump on me)

Notes:

-Valyrians built incredible towers and holds with fire magic, the Starks built the Wall and Winterfell with Ice Magic (Just to recall, Both are based in blood)

-Starks used to ability of Skin change to warg into birds, animals and plants in order to see over vast distances and to communicate with someone far way, the Valyrians used glass candles to see over vast distances and communicate with someone far away.

-Greenseers can have prophetic dreams, Valyrians can have prophetic dreams

-Starks were more tolerable to cold, Valyrians were more tolerable to fire.

(These parallels are not coincidental)

White Walkers and the Starks:

I know many are not set on the connection between the White Walkers and the Starks through my interpretation of the Last hero, however even if you are not sold on the idea of the Last Hero selling his soul to the White Walkers for survival, you have to admit that the theory has merit. In fact, it happens again.

The 13^th Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch was brother to the Stark King(I believe this – Nan is never wrong). At one point he falls in love with a pale skinned, blue eyes woman. He takes her for his wife and when he gives her his seed, she takes his soul. He declares himself the Night’s King and rules tyrannically over the Night’s Watch for 13 years. Eventually, the King Beyond the Wall and the King in the North join forces to take him out. Eventually they find out that he was sacrificing children to the White Walkers and they had all files and evidence of his existence removed. A few things to take from this:

1.) The King Beyond the Wall and the King in the North evidently got along

2.) It took them thirteen years to realize that the Night’s King was a threat

3.) They didn’t really seem to care that he married a White Walker, but seemed more upset at the fact that he was ruling over them in a torturous, tyrannical way.

4.) The White Walkers were clearly not obliterated during the Long Winter and seemed to be doing fine beyond the wall.

5.) Once they found out that he was sacrificing to the White Walkers, they expunged all records of his existence. It seemed as if this wasn’t the first time that this has happened.

Here is an example of a Stark giving his soul to White Walker. Literal or not, the language is dramatic. Did she turn him into something similar to Cold Hands? Could Coldhands be the night King?

The Last Hero could have been one of the ancestors of the Starks. He could’ve given his soul to the White Walkers in the same way. It makes you wonder about certain the phrase, “Their must always be a Stark in Winterfell”…why? Why must there always be a Stark In Winterfell? And it has to be a Stark, not a Karstak, not a Royce, but a Stark. There could be a Magic connection based in Royal Blood, and I do not think it is a coincidence that everytime a Stark goes South something terrible happens to him. It is almost as if there is a barrier from allowing a Stark to survive away from the Old Gods.

There is not enough material to fully learn the connection between the White Walkers, COTF, Starks, Winterfell and the Wall. But it seems that the magic they possess is based in Blood Magic and Blood Sacrifice, just like the Valyrians and there Dragons.

Battle of Ice and Fire:

This entire long thread has led to this part.

Eventually the Valyrians conquered most, if not all of Essos. The Blood of the Dragon and Masters of Fire Magic. One can look at the continent as one founded in the Flames or Light. Why? Some examples:

1.) Obviously the Free Cities were forged by the Fires of the Dragons and their Valyrian Masters

2.) The Religion of R’hillor is based here. The Lord of Light. Flames and Light, Light, Light. Traditionally the Lord of Light has had a hard time getting a foothold in Westeros

3.) Even the story of Azhor Ahai is about a savior wielding Lightbringer, who saves the world from Darkness

4.) Climate Wise Essos may have oasis’, but overall it has a Northern Africa/India feel to me and after going through the Red Waste it seems that Essos is largely an arid, desert like climate.

5.) In Valyria the lands are called “The Lands of the Long Summer.”

So when we see Essos, their Dragon history and the Doom of Valryia, we should think ‘Summer’, that’s the point.

In contrast in Westeros the culture is writhed in darkness and cold. Darkness in history and darkness in climate. Even though I believe that all of Westeros was more ‘dark’ in eons past, their power and magic seem to be strongest in the North. Just like I am sure the power of Old Valyria is strongest in Valyria(No one who travels there returns)

1.) The North was forged in Ice (Winterfell, The Wall) by the Starks through thousands of years of expanding and trying to conquer the other territories.

2.) The Old Gods are nameless, except for the eerie carvings of their alleged faces in the heart trees.

While teaching Bran to look through the eyes of the weirwood(essentially saying ‘play god’) he tells him that ‘Darkness is your friend’ and to never be afraid of it. (I maybe wrong but Mel sees Bloodraven in her flames an thinks he is the Great Other)

3.) Unlike the story of AA, The Last Hero’s journey is and ends all in darkness

4.) Although Westeros has many different climates, the North is cold and dark. Overall the North is the size of the other 6 kingdoms combined.

5.) In the Lands North of the Wall, it is called the Lands of Always Winter

It maybe more accurate to say that this a battle between Light and Darkness with Fire and Ice being the forms of magic that it manifests as. Neither one is bad or good, just is an inevitable clash for a period of dominance.

Valyria and the Lands of the Long Summer is in stark opposition and contrast to the North and the Lands of Always Winter. At one point the First Men ruled all of Westeros, at one point the Valyrians ruled all of Essos. The Starks are an offshoot of the First Men, the Targaryans are an offshoot of the Valyrians. The Starks do not remember a lot about their origins, their magic or what they truly are, the Targaryans do not remember a lot about their origins, their magic or what they truly are. The Stark house is exiled, the Targaryan house is exiled. Neither side practices blood magic anymore, but it seems as if they will be heading in that direction, especially to reclaim what is theres.

I fully expect the Lord of Light to become Dany’s religion. As we have seen they are often giving blood sacrifices to the Flames(That’s not a coincidence). Just the same in the North, Bran may have sacrificed Jojen to unleash his full power and maybe Theon Greyjoy will become the Blood Sacrfice needed before the Heart Tree to re-open a long forgotten tradition.

I believe these two sides have been at war with each other since the beginning of time. I believe that either Light or Dark rules for a long time, but only to be defeated by the opposite who would then rule for an extended period of time. There are hints to this.

For example, GRRM has said that eons ago Dragons covered the world. They were in Westeros as well as Essos. That’s pretty amazing, but what happened? They died out? More likely they were killed off by the opposite force of Darkness/Ice and eventually made extinct in Westeros. However, thousands of years later they are discovered by a few shepherds to train them to be weapons and to try and reclaim dominance over the dark once more. You can call each one of these periods a generation. The Long Winter itself could’ve been a generation on that time scale in which the world was covered in darkness.

Maybe that’s why the Valyrians never tried to conquer Westeros. Maybe they knew about the balance and did not want to trigger their own downfall by upsetting it.

What is different about this generation? A Few things, but none more profound then the invasion of the Andals. The Andals through a wrench in the balance. They are neither light or dark. They have no stake in this war except to advance in a modern sense without magic.

When they landed in Westeros, they conquered all the Kingdoms except the North(Where the Power was the strongest). They killed the COTF and cut down the weirwoods, essentially crippling the magical powers of the First Men and Children.

Eventually, the Doom brings an end to the Valyrian Freenhold as well. Most Dragons and Valyrians die, except the Targaryans who lived on Dragonstone. Eventually the small force on Dragonstone conquers the six of the seven kingdoms in Westeros. In terms of battle between Light and Dark, the two biggest things about this moment in history is that

1.) Even though the Valyrian Freehold was no more, the magic forces of Light was rejuvenated.

2.) The Starks bent the knee and for the first time since the beginning they were no longer called the Kings in the North or the Kings of Winter. They were merely lords and subservient to the Dragons lords of fire and light

-It should be noted, that had Torrhen Stark not bend his knee, the Starks would’ve been obliterated, The Magic of Ice and Blood that flowed through their veins would be lost forever. So in a way, Torrhen Stark was the greatest hero in the history of their House, for he was the one saved them despite being shamed. Either way, The Dragon Lords of Light escape their demise in the Doom and now have dominion over the magic of Darkness, Ice and Blood.

However, the Andals were still there, and they still had plenty of influence.

Maesters: Somebody had to see through history, research, etc. this ancient battle of Ice/Darkness and Fire/Light. We learn that it was the Maesters that killed off the rest of the Dragons in Westeros…why? Just because? Most Maesters today(Especially the higher echelon ones) hate magic, hate talking about magic, look down on it and aren’t above hiring someone to make sure you shutup about anything you think you may know. They wanted to end magic. Why? Honestly, a country is way easier to control without magic(Order), maybe they knew about the eternal struggle between Ice and Fire that usually leads to war and turmoil. Maybe they sought to end it by taking out one side of the coin. Maybe to avoid the next inevitable Long Winter. Killing off the Targaryans and the last of the royal blood bounded by the Dragons was also a part of the plan. Robert’s Rebellion was crafted heavily by the Citadel IMO, to rid the world of these magical beings and to put a normal good King on the throne(Or so they hoped)

Even with Dany and Viserys alive, it probably wasn’t a big deal. The objective was completed. Dragons are killed, Targs are off the throne and far away from us.

However, life finds a way and something happened that no one thought would happen, the birth of Dany’s three Dragons. I’m also sure that the Maesters have tried to off the Starks at certain times in the past (eliminate the bloodline – We may find out more in the Next Dunk and Egg story). Starks are survivors, always have been. (Ever since their ancestor sold their blood to the white walkers to survive the long winter…just my opinion.)

It would seem that the eternal struggle is inevitable. Sooner or later the Starks, representatives of the Blood/ Ice/ Darkness Magic and descendants of the First Men will meet the Targaryans, representatives of the Blood/Fire/Light Magic and descendants of the Valyrians in an apocalyptic battle that will end the generation. MOST PEOPLE WILL DIE.

The White Walkers are back to cover the world in Darkness again for another generation. The Dragons and their Fire Masters will right to extinguish the Darkness to continue another generation in the Light.

It seems like the blood magic and sacrifices that were forgotten are also making a strong come back. This battle seems cyclical, but I fear that if a balance is not found between these two opposing forces then it will be the end of the 7 kingdoms as well as the free cities.

There is something different this generation. No one has ever been born with both Valyrian and First Men blood. Jon Snow could very well have the fate of Westeros and Essos in his hands. Many of us have seen Jon as becoming leader of the Wildlings and the North in order to fight the White Walkers or the Southern Armies when/if they come. However, whether the White Walkers or the Dragons when, the world has no future. Why? If the White Walkers win, they will cover the world in Darkness in which most people will starve to death and the world will essentially start over with a hand full of people who’s only knowledge of the past world is only known through oral myths. If the Dragons win they will continue to grow larger, larger and larger. They will lead to destruction of Westeros by raining fire on the people below. Dany can barely control them. With the destruction of the opposition there will be nothing standing in their way of feasting, roasting and burning of everything in their sights. Either way, the world has no future, unless a balance can be made.

It is Dany’s job to bring the ‘fire’ to Westeros. She has to take R’hillor as her own to fully understand her destiny. She has to meet Jon Snow. It is Jon’s job to bring balance between the two sides. If Dany refuses to put down her army and Dragons, Jon will have to fight her with the White Walkers as a part of his army. (Dany foresees this at the Trident).

In the end however, they will have to unite or fall. Either that or GRRM wants Winter to come out on top in this one by defeating the Dragons

Very long read, I appreciate who gets through this. Obviously I had many assumptions in this, but let me know what yall think.

There were some innacuracies in your post:

1. If R+L=J, than Jon Snow would not be the first person with both Valryian and First Men blood. That award goes to Bloodraven. Interesting enough we saw what kind of powers that hybrid gave us, despite being from a relatively minor First Men family (Bracken). It's going to be interesting to see what Jon is capable of (if R+L=J).

2. Jojen paste clearly didnt occur. We see Jojen shortly after Bran eats the paste exploring tunnels and what not with his sister.

[kissdbyfire]

There were some innacuracies in your post:

1. If R+L=J, than Jon Snow would not be the first person with both Valryian and First Men blood. That award goes to Bloodraven. Interesting enough we saw what kind of powers that hybrid gave us, despite being from a relatively minor First Men family (Bracken). It's going to be interesting to see what Jon is capable of (if R+L=J).

2. Jojen paste clearly didnt occur. We see Jojen shortly after Bran eats the paste exploring tunnels and what not with his sister.

Can you provide a quote regarding Jojen's appearance after Bran eats the weirwood paste?

[Quentyn Baratheon]

We don't see Jojen after Bran ate the paste.

[Maizel]

Nice post.

You actually make it fit quite nicely.

Though undoubtly, Martin will surprise us all, you make it all sounbd very plausible.

Good post, thanks for taking the effort to type that up!

[JP Dayne]

I don't believe for a second Mel killed Balon, Robb, and Joff with the leeches trick. I think she saw those deaths in her fires and used this knowledge to convince Stannis and the rest that she's more powerful than she actually is.

well, that's one of the things we'll never know that for sure. But I was just throwing out the idea that the element of blood is intrisically part of magic

[Pj Fallon]

I apprciated the read

[Sevumar]

Some interesting ideas here, but I think there are some real misinterpretations and misreads here too. I want to comment on several aspects of the post and I'll do that point by point below. There are also some points where we don't know enough to fully understand what's happened/happening, and where I want to share a different interpretation.

Make no mistake about it. In the simplest form of this story, everything is about Bloodlines. In particular the blood of Old Valyria and the Blood of the First Men... Clashing is inevitable and this is nowhere near the first time these two bloodlines have clashed.

I don't think there has been a "historical clash" between these two forces or bloodlines before. Evidence points to the idea that the Valyrians avoided mainland Westeros for some reason. It could be a lack of interest, backward inhabitants, fears of stretching themselves too thin, or some yet-to-be unveiled other reason. It seems to show that the Valyrians did not war with Westeros with any seriousness until the invasion of Aegon I.

- The First Men stumbled across the COTF; the Valyrians stumbled across Dragon lairs

- The First Men ‘tamed’ or conquered the COTF; The Valyrians tamed or ‘conquered’ the Dragons

There's a very important difference here. The Children of the Forest are an intelligent people with a culture of their own, while dragons were and always have been animals. The relationship between the First Men and the Children is nothing like that of the Valyrians and their dragons. Yes, each has a "partnership" of sorts with the beings they "discovered," but the Valyrians became the undisputed masters of dragons by subjugating them. The First Men formed a relationship between their society and that of the Children, learning from them and growing to desire some of the power they'd seen the Children wield.

Blood Sacrifice:

The First Men seem to somewhat assimilate into the ways of the Children. They begin praying to the trees and worshipping the Old Gods, which was the culture of the COTF. However, I also believe they learned something else from the COTF. Blood Sacrifice.

It is never really stated that the Children or the First Men practiced Blood Sacrifices, but it is hinted at.

1.) Bran sees a flashback, thousands of years old in which he sees a Blood sacrifice given before the heart tree

2.) The Turnkey tells Ser Davos about the story of Brandon Ice Eyes(Will come back to this) Stark giving slavers to their slaves and then decorating a heart tree with their entrails as a blood sacrifice to the Old Gods.

3.) Many believe (Not me) that Bran is eating Jojen’s blood as a paste to heighten his powers

4.) Bran also seems to be desperate to get Theon to the Heart tree. Maybe his sacrifice will awaken the trees/powers like in eons past? Pure speculation but the power of royal blood is emphasized over, and over and over in this series.

5.) There are many, many scattered bones of beasts, COTF and humans scattered all over the tunnels of the Last Greenseer. Could they really have been eating them? Blood Sacrifice? Decorations?

I find it hard to believe that the First Men adopted the Old Gods from the Children, but that they invented the Blood Sacrifice all by themselves. Just to be sure we are on the same page, when I say Blood Sacrifice I mean the sacrifice of a life. When Bran sees the sacrifice through the eyes of the heart tree they slit the person’s throat.

I have a different view about blood sacrifice and its appearance in the history of the First Men and their religious beliefs. We don't know much about the original practices of either the First Men or the Children, but I don't think the sacrificial/blood magic aspect of what would become the First Men's faith in the Old Gods originates with the Children.

In Bran's visions and in the other stories we hear in Dance, the participants are always humans. There isn't a Child of the Forest in the background conducting the rite or instructing the First Men participants. After the Pact ended the war between the First Men and the Children and divided the lands of Westeros between the two, I think the First Men began a slow process of absorbing some aspects of CotF culture and belief. Having seen and heard stories of the tremendous power the Children wielded, I think the First Men became envious and started to desire this power for themselves, so they tried to imitate some of the Children's practices and merge them with their own religious rites.

To understand how blood sacrifice could have become entangled in this, we have to go back to the origins of the First Men in Essos. Much of what we've seen of magic and religious ceremonies on Essos relies on a transactional understanding of magic. A knowledgeable practictioner offers blood or a life to power a spell or a ritual and magic results. The First Men would have taken this understanding with them in their migration to Westeros. We may even see remnants of their old understanding and old pantheon in the religious views of the Iron Islanders with their Storm God/Drowned God dualism and their penchant for sacrifice.

When the First Men arrive in Westeros and begin waging war to take it from the Children, they see the powers of the CotF in action, changing the landscape, possessing animals, and seeing through the weirwoods. As I've already mentioned, after the Pact, the desire to share in this power themselves may be what drove their adoption of the Children's beliefs and practices. What results is similar to the stories of the "cargo cults" in the Pacific. They copy the actions of the Children while applying their own understanding of how magic works. They begin worshipping at the weirwoods, but they also offer sacrifice in hopes of securing the Children's power for themselves. It seems like this goes on for some time, but it has mostly subsided by the beginning of the novels.

The powers of the Children have always seemed different than the magic practiced in the rest of the world. It seems like their power is an inborn trait, especially when we hear about the color of a Child's eyes hinting at the powers of a warg or greenseer. How this power eventually found its way into the human society of the First Men is still a mystery, but I think blood sacrifice is a dead end and represents a misguided attempt by the First Men to capture the power of the Children for their own use.

This post is getting somewhat long, so I'll end it here and put the rest of my thoughts in another response.

[kissdbyfire]

Excellent points, Sevumar. I agree with everything. I posted in one pf the first Heresy threads that I thought the First Men being envious of and coveting the CotF's power was linked to the creation/surfacing of the White Walkers. And I keep going back to that, and to the fact that I don't believe for a second that Martin is going to make anyone the 'enemy' other than humans being their own worst enemies.

OP: the other point I wanted to address is the bolded part from your post.

"This is all pure speculation, but I am forming a theory based on the increasing evidence that blood sacrifice was prevalent, royal blood means something, and that the accuracy of history is tainted. (Especially the whole COTF are sweet, cuddly and lovable while the White Walkers are evil!)."

Everything in the text makes me see the CotF as neutral; representatives of Nature. And I've seen similar arguments being made before, time and again, that they are creepy and not 'cuddly' or whatever, and I just don't get it. Isn't this a complete misinterpretation, and even a childish one, about nature? Nature is not cute and cuddly. Not at all. Nature is neutral, and can brutal and ruthless.

[Sevumar]

They bound the Dragons to their Blood to such an extent that their race forever has a connection with them. Even Brown Ben Plum who has just a little Valyrian blood seems to be well liked by Dany’s Dragons.

There's good reason to be wary of believing in the Targaryen insistence on a special blood connection to dragons. If control of the dragons is simply a matter of secret knowledge and practices passed down from one generation of dragonlords to the next, the mythos of a blood connection would reinforce the aura of power and otherworldliness of the dragonlords. There is a possibility that this knowledge was slowly lost as the Targaryens assimilated to the culture of Westeros and forgot about the practices of their ancestors, resulting in the diminishment of dragons and their eventual disappearance from Westeros.

I'm not saying that a blood connection isn't possible, just that we shouldn't accept it without questioning the motives of those who benefit from this story.

It would seem that despite the formation of opposing sides to this ‘magic’ that they are actually a part of the same overall manifestation with different interpretations. And whether Valyrian or First Men, your magic is based in blood.

Notes: Incestial Marriages:

-Given the importance of the blood lines, it makes a lot more sense for the Valyrians to practice incestial marriages and trying their best to keep the bloodlines pure. If you water down the bloodlines by mating with outsiders, the power within the magic also decreases.

-This also gives reasoning to why the Starks rarely married anyone who wasn’t of First Men descent (There were many reasons for this, but bare with me).

I think we have good reason to believe in a blood or genetic transmission of abilities for the First Men and Children. As I mentioned above, what we hear from the mouths of the Children themselves points to the inborn nature of their abilities. Even among their own people these abilities are rare and as the Children have disappeared, the identities of the practitioners have switched to the descendents of the First Men.

It's worth noting that the Starks don't seemed to have willingly pursued "incestuous" marriages. They probably married into their vassals as a matter of custom and as a way of strengthening their ties with various factions in the North. I don't think there was a conscious effort to conserve First Men heritage.

If you look at the Targaryens, you can see that despite three centuries of their efforts to secure the "purity" of their Valyrian lineage, they have actually done a poor job of it. Yes, the outward traits are still relatively common in Targaryen family members, but if you look at the family tree and do a little math, you can figure out that the unattainable best case scenario for Targaryens of Dany's generation is less than 1/8 Valyrian blood. Yet, Dany is the first Targaryen in generations to witness the hatching of dragons where her ancestors failed to bring forth dragons again and again. This seems like powerful evidence against a blood connection to dragons.

Long story short, the First Men were getting their asses kicked by the White Walkers as well as the Winter itself. The Last Hero leads a team deep into the woods to try and find the reclusive COTF to see if they have any kind of magic to help them turn the tide. He searches for years and his entire team dies. Last we see of him he is struggling, crawling to get away from his winter specters with his broken sword...and then Old Nan is cut off. There are only a few things that could’ve happened:

-History isn’t accurate. I understand that later on Bran thinks that the Children save him but, the Children literally have no motivation to help this human. Hell, they probably watched his entire team die over the years while looking for them, so why help him now?

It's unclear how much cooperation was established in the Pact, but from later sources we learn that the Children and the humans had a common interest in winning the War for the Dawn against the Others. It's unclear why the Last Hero was not provided with obsidian blades by the Children during his original journey. Perhaps he never found them and returned in disgrace, looking elsewhere for help in his battle. The weapon eventually ends up with (leads to success in fighting the Others) is dragonsteel, not obsidian.

Sam's sources in the library of Castle Black reveal that it was customary for the Children to gift the Night's Watch with 100 obsidian blades for year after the end of the War for the Dawn. This suggestes at least a degree of cooperation and common interest between the two sides and against the Others. Tidbits like this are an indication that any kind of cooperation, deal, or understanding between the Starks and the Others is extremely unlikely.

I know many are not set on the connection between the White Walkers and the Starks through my interpretation of the Last hero, however even if you are not sold on the idea of the Last Hero selling his soul to the White Walkers for survival, you have to admit that the theory has merit. In fact, it happens again.

The reaction of the Wildlings and the the lords of the North to the Night's King shows us everything we need to know about the fate of those who cooperate with the Others. This alignment is not tolerated among humans, even those Houses traditionally associated with ice or winter imagery. Why would the Last Hero sell his soul to the Others and then become a hero in his own people's mythology for defeating them? The Others were winning the war at the beginning of the Last Hero's tale and they had no reason to treat with a human. They certainly seemed to have designs on land well beyond the Land of Always Winter and at the end of the war, they find themselves confined beyond a towering barrier reinforced with magic. How did this prospective deal with the Last Hero benefit them, exactly?

Eventually the Valyrians conquered most, if not all of Essos. The Blood of the Dragon and Masters of Fire Magic. One can look at the continent as one founded in the Flames or Light. Why? Some examples:

This isn't true. The Valyrians conquered the western parts of Essos, the Free Cities region (although that seemed to fall completely under their control in the last 1000 years of their dominion), and the Ghiscari territories. There's no indication that they took and held the Dothraki Sea, Qarth, or anything bordering the Jade Sea.

There seems to be no indication that light imagery is or was used by the Valyrians or their descendents.

1.) Obviously the Free Cities were forged by the Fires of the Dragons and their Valyrian Masters

2.) The Religion of R’hillor is based here. The Lord of Light. Flames and Light, Light, Light. Traditionally the Lord of Light has had a hard time getting a foothold in Westeros

3.) Even the story of Azhor Ahai is about a savior wielding Lightbringer, who saves the world from Darkness

4.) Climate Wise Essos may have oasis’, but overall it has a Northern Africa/India feel to me and after going through the Red Waste it seems that Essos is largely an arid, desert like climate.

5.) In Valyria the lands are called “The Lands of the Long Summer.”

So when we see Essos, their Dragon history and the Doom of Valryia, we should think ‘Summer’, that’s the point.

Indications are that R'hllor's faith had its origins in Asshai, not anywhere near Valyria. The prominence of the faith in the Free Cities seems to be a recent, post-Doom development.

Valyrian lands are likely called the Land of the Long Summer because of their subtropical/tropical latitude and the volcanic activity in the area. On the whole, Essos's landmass is much further south than that of Westeros, so it stands to reason that many areas of the continent would be warmer. Looking at Braavos, it is clear that some portions of Essos do have more temperate or cold climates. Westeros runs north-south while Essos runs east-west, so the climactic differences and positions of these landmasses can account for the naming differences you'e brought up here.

I believe these two sides have been at war with each other since the beginning of time. I believe that either Light or Dark rules for a long time, but only to be defeated by the opposite who would then rule for an extended period of time. There are hints to this.

I don't think that an ascendance of light or dark really fits with what's going on in Martin's world. The Starks are, in general, not a force of darkness or cold. The site of Winterfell and the existence of the glass gardens shows us that the Starks have no specific totemic attachment to ice and cold. They use the imagery when it benefits them to do so, but they also built their seat over a natural source of warmth and power to give them some help in surviving winter.

The Valyrians and their descendents seem to like fire and have an attachment to it, but there is no evidence that they champion light in this way. There isn't really textual support for a running conflict between them and the First Men either, so I don't think it's likely that an opposition of Ice and Fire can be embodied in these two factions fighting each other. It's just not a good fit.

[lostcause]

It's unclear how much cooperation was established in the Pact, but from later sources we learn that the Children and the humans had a common interest in winning the War for the Dawn against the Others. It's unclear why the Last Hero was not provided with obsidian blades by the Children during his original journey. Perhaps he never found them and returned in disgrace, looking elsewhere for help in his battle. The weapon eventually ends up with (leads to success in fighting the Others) is dragonsteel, not obsidian.

Sam's sources in the library of Castle Black reveal that it was customary for the Children to gift the Night's Watch with 100 obsidian blades for year after the end of the War for the Dawn. This suggestes at least a degree of cooperation and common interest between the two sides and against the Others. Tidbits like this are an indication that any kind of cooperation, deal, or understanding between the Starks and the Others is extremely unlikely.

****************************

The reaction of the Wildlings and the the lords of the North to the Night's King shows us everything we need to know about the fate of those who cooperate with the Others. This alignment is not tolerated among humans, even those Houses traditionally associated with ice or winter imagery. Why would the Last Hero sell his soul to the Others and then become a hero in his own people's mythology for defeating them? The Others were winning the war at the beginning of the Last Hero's tale and they had no reason to treat with a human. They certainly seemed to have designs on land well beyond the Land of Always Winter and at the end of the war, they find themselves confined beyond a towering barrier reinforced with magic. How did this prospective deal with the Last Hero benefit them, exactly?

Was going to comment on that, but see you did it better than I could. So I'll settle for an "I agree".

Is a nice post OP, but I think some of the conclusions are reaching a little in the conclusion of events. Mostly on part of the Starks and the Children.

A nice read though, thanks for the time and effort put into it!

[Sand Snake No. 9]

There were some innacuracies in your post:

1. If R+L=J, than Jon Snow would not be the first person with both Valryian and First Men blood. That award goes to Bloodraven. Interesting enough we saw what kind of powers that hybrid gave us, despite being from a relatively minor First Men family (Bracken). It's going to be interesting to see what Jon is capable of (if R+L=J).

2. Jojen paste clearly didnt occur. We see Jojen shortly after Bran eats the paste exploring tunnels and what not with his sister.

Bloodraven is a Blackwood, not a Bracken. His mother was Mylessa Blackwood, Aegon IV's sixth mistress. Bittersteel is a Bracken. His mother was Barba of House Bracken, Aegon IV's fifth mistress.

I don't think that House Blackwood was a minor house, at least not in its connection to the First Men. Before the arrival of the Andals the Blackwoods were kings, in perpetual conflict with their neighbors the Brackens. The sigil is a weirwood tree surrounded by ravens, and both weirwoods and ravens have ancient magical connotations. There is a huge, dead, weirwood in the Blackwood godswood which still attracts ravens by the hundreds. Surely, the Blackwoods are plugged into the old ways somehow.

After Bran ate the weirwood paste and had his first visions, Hodor brought him back to the cave where they were staying with Jojen, who had been sickly and worried, and Meera. Neither Jojen and Meera were there, even though Bran really wanted to see them. Then Bran had his second set of visions which ended with the white haired woman cutting a man's throat in front of Winterfell's heart tree. Her sickle-shaped blade echoed the crescent moon that GRRM used as a time-keeper throughout Bran's POVs. As Bran watched this last vision, his mouth filled with the taste of blood. Whose blood was he tasting? The sacrificed prisoner's or that of someone else?

[Sevumar]

Everything in the text makes me see the CotF as neutral; representatives of Nature. And I've seen similar arguments being made before, time and again, that they are creepy and not 'cuddly' or whatever, and I just don't get it. Isn't this a complete misinterpretation, and even a childish one, about nature? Nature is not cute and cuddly. Not at all. Nature is neutral, and can brutal and ruthless.

I think you're right about the Children of the Forest representing the more feral and primal essence of nature. Of all the intelligent peoples mentioned in the story, the Children live the closest to nature, don't work metal, and wielded tremendous influence over natural forces.

I've been thinking that perhaps it was when the First Men started living in a similar way, they started to have access to some of the same powers. After the Wall went up and the Andals arrived, the First Men of the North gradually drifted toward a more "civilized" existence in a man-made world and the powers they'd once shared with the Children faded away into story and memory. The Wildlings continued to live closer to nature and seem to have retained skinchanging and some prophetic ability, but even they have lost touch with significant parts of their past culture. The old powers seem somewhat stronger in the Neck where the crannogmen live very close to nature, even living in the same types of dwellings the Children were once said to use.

I also think there's some significance to the CotF's name for themselves, Those Who Sing the Songs of the Earth. This could be completely off, but perhaps it is living close enough to nature to hear and take part in those songs that grants access to the power of the Old Gods. The voices of the Old Gods are said by some to be heard on the wind and in the rustling leaves of trees and Bran's actions seem to support this idea. Perhaps as people move more toward manipulating the earth instead of living as the Singers do, they lose the connections that grant those powers. Perhaps the Children did not create the songs, but took note of them and learned how to use them.

Then Bran had his second set of visions which ended with the white haired woman cutting a man's throat in front of Winterfell's heart tree. Her sickle-shaped blade echoed the crescent moon that GRRM used as a time-keeper throughout Bran's POVs. As Bran watched this last vision, his mouth filled with the taste of blood. Whose blood was he tasting? The sacrificed prisoner's or that of someone else?

My reading of that scene was that Bran has finally identified with the tree enough to share its sensations instead of just the imagery of the memories, but I think that line is meant to be dramatic and ambivalent. There are many other things that could be going on there and Bran's is one PoV I can't wait to see again in TWoW.

[David C. Hunter]

Again, thanks for all the responses guys. Sorry for the delay, but my family lives in New Orleans and Hurricane Issac has been irritating.

Just a few points

I left out the Ironborn and the Faceless Men because I literally do not know where they are in the scheme of things, haha.

Faceless Men are Braavosi in origin. Bravos was created from escaped slaves of Valyria. Given the longevity of grudges in the of Ice and Fire, I think its safe to say that the Braavosi and Faceless Men STILL hate the Dragons, and that any theory resulting in the Braavosi siding with Dany or Aegon is NOT going to happen.

So if the Faceless Men/Braavosi are true to their origins, then they probably want to find a way to eradicate the Dragon. This makes sense then for the Iron Bank to help Stannis Baratheon(Among other reasons) instead of someone like Aegon or Dany, whom Im sure they have information about.

Jaqen is also in Oldtown trying to get access to hidden materials, possibly about Dragons and how to kill them. After all the Maesters were the ones to kill off the remaining Dragons in the first place. If it wasn't for this I would've said that the Faceless Men were working with the Citadel, but if that were the case Jaqen wouldn't need to break into the Citadel.

Who has the money to pay the Faceless Men to kill the Dragon heirs and the Dragon's themselves?(Because whether or not they hate the Valyrian descendants, they arent doing this for free)

Who wants to get rid of the Dragons?

Who wants to get rid of that magic?

Who is even aware of the Dragon threat?

Hardly anyone is even aware of Dany and her Dragons in Westeros, except maybe the Citadel.

Since that is the case then you would have to assume the basically only the top players in the Game of Throne could be doing this.

1. Euron Greyjoy (Already used a Faceless Man once)

2. Varys - Hates Magic and whom I do not believe is really behind Aegon

I can't think about anyone else at the moment, but as of today I bet my money on Varys, though I could obviously be extremely wrong.

*Bran the Builder = Bran Stark - it's just a theory that somehow Bran will be able to help construct the Wall, Winterfell etc by warging into the past or something. Its just a theory, no real merit to it besides they have the same name and that Bran will probably go back in time to see the creation of the Wall/Winterfell

The Ironborn are tricky to figure out and I think that's the point. They can go either way. If you read their saying "What is dead may never die, but rises again harder and stronger. " It reminds you of the Wights, which are basically corpses that rise from death harder and stronger.

However, when you learn of the description of the Drowned God, the Drowned God tells them to reavem rape and to carve out a kingdom with Fire and Blood. There are no coincidence in GRRM's material, so I doubt that this is just a coincidence that the Iron Born's deitys Old ways of law just happen to be the words for the Targs.

It is also said that the Drowned God himself brought flame from the sea and sailed the world with Fire and Steel (Damn Andal modification to the story - ugh)

Another point is about the Storm God - The Storm God resides in the hall of clouds and Ravens are his creatures. Ravens have many meanings in Westerosi culture, but to me are mostly related to the Old Gods.

So, the Drowned God who comes with Fire is constantly in battle with the Storm God who resides in clouds(hidden in darkness) and whose creatures are Ravens? Could this be a hidden Easter egg to describe the ongoing struggle between Fire/Light Magic and the Ice/Darkness Magic?

*COTF are mysterious little dark creatures to me who I did not trust since the moment I saw them. GRRM likes to play with standards, such as dark= evil and light = good, but I still cant help but feel afraid of the COTF. Within the darkness,ground covered in bones (inlcuding humans), they have all these powers, connection to trees, and they are basically forcing Bran to do this. I dont recall anyone of the singers saying "Oh, would you like to help us out in our endeavor? One in which we will not explain to you at all?"

The Children are not neutral, if they were neutral they wouldn't be helping Bloodraven. They have an agenda and I doubt its just about 'stopping the White Walkers.

I dont claim to know the connection between the Starks and White Walkers, but there is a connection beyond the Starks kicked our asses 8,000 years ago. History in Westeros is inaccurate at best, so reading Old Text for the dogma is wrong. What I like to do is look at all the text as a whole and make an assessment.

Again thanks for the responses. My Op is nowhere near dogma, for I know a lot of what I said is open to interpretation, could be wrong or could have to little information to form a theory, but I do not believe I forced any information.

The core of my argument is Blood Magic and the historic battle between Ice and Fire or Darkness and Light.

[Maester Tormund]

With the whole idea of the Starks and White Walkers being conencted that makes their words take on a much different meaning.

"Winter is coming."

Instead of a warning as it is implied to be throughout the book unlike every other Houses' boats theres actually IS a boast. And a pretty frightful one.

[idiotking]

Quite a lot to get through there, and I think there's a lot of good, interesting -- and probably correct -- elements, even if on the whole it goes a bit too far (I don't think the whole "song of ice and fire" is bound up in blood sacrifice, I think that tends to be more incidental to the whole thing).

However, I *had* to chuckle at this image:

Eventually they find out that he was sacrificing children to the White Walkers and they had all files and evidence of his existence removed.

It's C.S.I: Westeros! :lmao:

[David C. Hunter]

Quite a lot to get through there, and I think there's a lot of good, interesting -- and probably correct -- elements, even if on the whole it goes a bit too far (I don't think the whole "song of ice and fire" is bound up in blood sacrifice, I think that tends to be more incidental to the whole thing).

However, I *had* to chuckle at this image:

It's C.S.I: Westeros! :lmao:

Can't you just see the opening credits? :drunk: