Ice and Fire Assessment...Theory (Long Read)

[DaeneryStormBorn]

Wow just wow, Thanks for the post, this is great stuff!!!

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

Agreed. But my opinion on the Whote Walkers is based on what GRRM has said.

GRRM hates the cliche evil dark lords of the north in fantasy

GRRM makes fun of writers who do this cliche

GRRM has fun playing with our instincts of wanting light and hating dark - e.g. The White cloaks are corrupt and the Black Brother's of the Night's Watch are admirable - its a twist in the cliche fantasy norms

So why would GRRM create evil cliche dark lords in the north? It answers itself. Its a red herring. He is setting us up.

But at the same time, for every Barristan (White Cloak) there is a Chett (Black Cloak.)

Don't get me wrong though, I agree with you. I think it's his purpose to write with major twists while destroying our expectations due to fantasy cliches. That's why I think about 90% of the theories I think to be true will end up being false.

[Maester Tormund]

Just an idea that popped into my head concerning Coldhands and how he could fit into this theory somewhat

Leaf tells Bran that The Others killed Coldhands many years ago, which would destroy any theories saying that Coldhands is Benjen Stark or Waymar Royce..... but what if part of the deal the Starks struck with The Others was to give up a child to them as part of a sacrifice?

We know Starks have always served as members of the Nights Watch so we can assume a lot of them were lost Beyond the Wall, but maybe they were sacrifices unknowingly made to The Others?

So The Others "killed" Benjen many, many years ago... by making a deal with the Starks for a sacrifice.

[Magic 8 Ball]

It's a well written post, but the weakness lies on the emphasis placed on Valyrian blood.

If the dragons like Ben Plumm, due to a "little bit of Valyrian blood", why don't they like Quentyn?

Also, the whole incest thing didn't do squat to preserve Valyrian blood, owing the the sibling couplings. Dany isn't very Valyrian, please don't make me do the math on this again.

Lots of good ideas, though.

Edit : as in, Dany likely has between less than 1% and likely no more than 3% Valyrian blood. The 1/8th number is generous to the point of being naive.

[rivergirl]

This theory is wonderful! Thank you for putting it all into one post, you basically summed up everything. It was a really good explanation, too :bowdown:

Just a thought- and this might be stupid, so forgive me if it is but i'm wondering if anyone else thinks this is possible- what if the Targaryens are to the Dragons what the Starks are to the White Walkers?

Assuming that the Starks became the Kings of Winter by driving the White Walkers back beyond the Wall and ultimately defeating them, or at least keeping them out of Westeros, that could be seen as the Starks having "tamed" the White Walkers. What if that's what the Targaryens did with the dragons? We know that the Targs are the only surviving dragon masters after the Doom, which is supposedly because they had left Valyria for Dragonstone... but what if it turns out that the Targaryens brought the Doom on Valyria? Maybe an early Targaryen saw the destructive potential for the Dragons, so they harnessed the power of the Lord of Light to destroy Valyria and the Dragons before they destroyed the rest of Essos/Westeros/Etc? Or it could have been an accident. As Melisandre says, "the brightest flame casts the darkest shadow."CWould that make the Targaryens/AA/the Dragons the "brightest flame" and Valyria the shadow? That would make the Targaryens the equivalent to the Starks because they were the ones to contain the force of Fire (dragons) to Valyria just like the Starks contained the force of Ice (White Walkers) to beyond the Wall.

One last thing: you said that Dany and Jon would meet, fight, and then realise that with the White Walkers and the Dragons on each of their sides, they would have to either unite or fall. This draws a strange parallel to the Game of Thrones: the Seven Kingdoms might be at war right now but ultimately, when Winter comes they're going to have to unite or fall as well.

[Arkash]

Maybe the most fascinating thread I've ever read ! I'll have to read the comments asap though.

But wow, that was amazing !

[Stark bannermen]

This is probably the best read I've had here!!! It's almost like reading a draft copy of martins ideas :)

BUT... :D I don't like it cause it messes up my theory lol

[Ludd]

Sorry I could not get all the way through the original post. while there is much sense in it I could not continue once the whole Bran Winter stuff came up.

It is JUST NOT consistent with the story and themes.

Bran is SUMMER. This seems very obvious so no way in the world is he going to be connected with Winter. He is the saviour who returns summer. He is straight from mythology - Balder, Christ, Adonis.

I think that the CoF/Bran AND FM/Arya jointly represent the BALANCE between life and death The FM are NOT assassins - it is just an urban myth. Rather they are fate. They are the gods of the underworld although they ALSO have an above ground life

The Dragons AND the Others are the unbalanced forces of fire and ice. The CoF will help to restore the balance

The Last Hero went in search of the CoF. Only when there was no other option did the CoF assist. They will (must) do so again.

Personally I see BENJEN as the last hero. He left with companions and few are left. I suspect Benjen is a warg

[BarristanOP]

Very pleasant and interesting reading. And it makes a lot of sense.

I just don't see where are the evidences that some Starks can endure cold the way some Targaryens (e.g. Danny) can endure heat. But maybe this is suppose to be a figurative way of saying one is bound to fire and the other ice?

[A Song of Tyrion's member]

Great thread!

A lot of effort went into this one, good job. There are some inaccuracies here alongside some propositions that you treat axiomatically. What GRRM has demonstrated over the history of aSoIaF is that you can't really be sure of anything.

I don't think that there was really ever a world history of a power struggle between the darkness and the light. The history of the first men and the Valyrians is interesting but a little off(?). The Targ's weren't the most noble family in Valyria; that piece of cake goes to the Velaryons (I don't believe they were dragonlords, though). Also, I do not think that Dragons ever actually 'ruled the world' but rather, since they could fly, were seen over the world for this reason were at the top of the food chain wherever they went. On the flip side, the 'Dark/cold' side to this story is similar. I do not think the starks/COTF/white walkers held any precedence outside of Westeros. For these reasons I do not think there will be an 'end of the world' scenario.

What I really like about this thread is the idea of the Andels being the 'wrench' in the machine. Yes, the Starks were the kings of the north and then along came Aegon I. I think right now what we are seeing is - if you want to put it in terms of a score of who were once kings - Starks: 1, Targs: 1. The Andals - I think primarily represented as house Baratheon(although they do have Targ blood) and house Lannister - are playing the role of the 'wrench' in the machine. They say the best way to construct is to first deconstruct, which is exactly IMO what the Baratheon's/Lannister's role is in aSoIaF. The reconstruction, or reconstructor, will be jon who, maybe maybe maybe :dunno: , starts a completely knew generation.

[David C. Hunter]

Thanks everyone for the feed back to these Threads, I know theyare long.

Just an idea that popped into my head concerning Coldhands and how he could fit into this theory somewhat

Leaf tells Bran that The Others killed Coldhands many years ago, which would destroy any theories saying that Coldhands is Benjen Stark or Waymar Royce..... but what if part of the deal the Starks struck with The Others was to give up a child to them as part of a sacrifice?

We know Starks have always served as members of the Nights Watch so we can assume a lot of them were lost Beyond the Wall, but maybe they were sacrifices unknowingly made to The Others?

So The Others "killed" Benjen many, many years ago... by making a deal with the Starks for a sacrifice.

This is a possibility. Maybe it is always customary for a Stark to become a member of the Night's Watch to eventually become a sacrfice, but IDK if their is a history of Starks dissappearing beyond the wall, lol.

It's a well written post, but the weakness lies on the emphasis placed on Valyrian blood.

If the dragons like Ben Plumm, due to a "little bit of Valyrian blood", why don't they like Quentyn?

Also, the whole incest thing didn't do squat to preserve Valyrian blood, owing the the sibling couplings. Dany isn't very Valyrian, please don't make me do the math on this again.

Lots of good ideas, though.

Edit : as in, Dany likely has between less than 1% and likely no more than 3% Valyrian blood. The 1/8th number is generous to the point of being naive.

Very good point about Quentyn. I really overlooked it. I agree that the incest nature of Valyrian bloodline doesn't help them, but they were probably not educated to the point of knowing that. Regardless they were trying to keep bloodlones pure. Valyrian Blood is still important, but I also think title is important too. Even though someone in Volantis may have more Valyrian blood, he/she isnt a Targaryan. Dany is. That is why I think royal blood is so important. Many say that at this point in time, most people, especially in the North all probably have royal blood, so the whole thing loses its importance. E.g. why is Theons blood so important as royalty when virtually everyone else has royal blood too. IMO, its because no one else has the title of Prince of the Iron Islands/Heir to the Iron Islands, etc. This is why Dany's blood is so important, because she is a Targ, not just someone with Val blood. It is the same to me in the North. There must always be someone whose title is Stark in Winterfell. Not Karstak, not Roye, STARK. Bloodlines and titles. Which is the reason why Quentyn was burned alive, but it throws a wrench in the Brown Ben Plumm theory. To be fair though, like Brown Ben Plum, Quentyn was actually making progress with one of the Dragons.

Sorry I could not get all the way through the original post. while there is much sense in it I could not continue once the whole Bran Winter stuff came up.

It is JUST NOT consistent with the story and themes.

Bran is SUMMER. This seems very obvious so no way in the world is he going to be connected with Winter. He is the saviour who returns summer. He is straight from mythology - Balder, Christ, Adonis.

I think that the CoF/Bran AND FM/Arya jointly represent the BALANCE between life and death The FM are NOT assassins - it is just an urban myth. Rather they are fate. They are the gods of the underworld although they ALSO have an above ground life

The Dragons AND the Others are the unbalanced forces of fire and ice. The CoF will help to restore the balance

The Last Hero went in search of the CoF. Only when there was no other option did the CoF assist. They will (must) do so again.

Personally I see BENJEN as the last hero. He left with companions and few are left. I suspect Benjen is a warg

Bran is to summer what the White Cloaks are the honor. IMO, that is just GRRM playing with cliches again. COTF, from what we have seen, are not these great benevolent leaders of nature. It is hinted that they performed blood sacrfices and IMO, even though the White Walkers allegedly were killing Children and Humans, the COTF in present day seem to be able to create magic barriers to protect themselves from the White Walkers and seem to be doing fine. It is the humans that were in danger. The Children, probably didnt really 'need' to defeat the Others. Of course that is speculation too. What is also seems to me is that the Children, unlike during the Long Night hardly have any power. They are held up in caves far beyond the wall in dwindling numbers. They are only relevant because of Blood Raven and Bran, not because they have some master plan.

Very pleasant and interesting reading. And it makes a lot of sense.

I just don't see where are the evidences that some Starks can endure cold the way some Targaryens (e.g. Danny) can endure heat. But maybe this is suppose to be a figurative way of saying one is bound to fire and the other ice?

Porbably a little of both. But the word 'Stark' by definition means hardy, so....they are hard to kill off, lol. The Starks are resilient in the winter because they have lives soley in the North for 10,000 years. Naturally they would build up some sort of small resistance to the cold. Similiar to how some people in Alska go outside in shorts.

Great thread!

A lot of effort went into this one, good job. There are some inaccuracies here alongside some propositions that you treat axiomatically. What GRRM has demonstrated over the history of aSoIaF is that you can't really be sure of anything.

I don't think that there was really ever a world history of a power struggle between the darkness and the light. The history of the first men and the Valyrians is interesting but a little off(?). The Targ's weren't the most noble family in Valyria; that piece of cake goes to the Velaryons (I don't believe they were dragonlords, though). Also, I do not think that Dragons ever actually 'ruled the world' but rather, since they could fly, were seen over the world for this reason were at the top of the food chain wherever they went. On the flip side, the 'Dark/cold' side to this story is similar. I do not think the starks/COTF/white walkers held any precedence outside of Westeros. For these reasons I do not think there will be an 'end of the world' scenario.

What I really like about this thread is the idea of the Andels being the 'wrench' in the machine. Yes, the Starks were the kings of the north and then along came Aegon I. I think right now what we are seeing is - if you want to put it in terms of a score of who were once kings - Starks: 1, Targs: 1. The Andals - I think primarily represented as house Baratheon(although they do have Targ blood) and house Lannister - are playing the role of the 'wrench' in the machine. They say the best way to construct is to first deconstruct, which is exactly IMO what the Baratheon's/Lannister's role is in aSoIaF. The reconstruction, or reconstructor, will be jon who, maybe maybe maybe :dunno: , starts a completely knew generation.

If the White Walkers get passed the wall with no army to meet them the Long Night will cover Westeros and most people will die. The fact that Essos has stories about Long Night means that it probably came over to Essos as well. The world has no future unless a balance is found between the two powers and the Andals are key to that future too. Notice how all the major Andal families are on the downfall while the First Men and Valyrian descendants are om the rise? Tyrells, Lannisters, Baratheons, Freys, Tullys are all living on borrowed time. However, the Andals do have abig role to play and I do not consider the Dornish as Andals.

[Clariana]

Great theory but where does this leave the Lannisters? Surely so much prose has not been expended to them solely to give them a walk on part with no lines in the final showdown?

[The Three eyed Crow]

No one has ever been born with both Valyrian and First Men blood

We know at least one, Brynden rivers

[Capt. Zemblanity]

Wow. I just found this. Thank you. :bowdown:

It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[Howling Mad]

Great theory but where does this leave the Lannisters? Surely so much prose has not been expended to them solely to give them a walk on part with no lines in the final showdown?

Regarding the Lannisters and remaining Andals: "It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others."

To the OP: great work, I'm glad someone resurrected this thread as I missed it the first time around (football season). Very insightful.

[the titan of westeros]

What about the Rhoynar who make up a large part of the Dornish what role do they have to play.

Also, Maybe Quentyn got killed by the dragons because of his lack of a blood sacrifice. I dont remember him killing or offering anyone as tribute, Whereas Dany burned Mirri Maz Duur. For this reason the dragons probably found Quentyn unworthy to be a master. In Brown Ben Plumms case, he wasn't trying to tame a dragon so he didnt represent a threat.

[Frey family reunion]

It's a well written post, but the weakness lies on the emphasis placed on Valyrian blood.

If the dragons like Ben Plumm, due to a "little bit of Valyrian blood", why don't they like Quentyn?

Also, the whole incest thing didn't do squat to preserve Valyrian blood, owing the the sibling couplings. Dany isn't very Valyrian, please don't make me do the math on this again.

Lots of good ideas, though.

Edit : as in, Dany likely has between less than 1% and likely no more than 3% Valyrian blood. The 1/8th number is generous to the point of being naive.

I would note that the only dragon that seemed attracted to Ben Plumm was Viserion. Viserion was not the dragon that toasted Quentyn, it was Rhaegal. As for Valyrian blood, I think it has a way of rising back to the top with sufficient transfusions.

[PrinceThatMountsTheWorld]

After a good read I find it that as many others before me. You sum up it well!

Logic crackpot endgame

Deny stays in Essos ruling from where she gains her magic, near Valyria defending the origin of Fire magic.

Bran stays in winterfell as king of Winter defending ice magic.

Jon being the perfect balence is slayed by Kingslayer using Oathbreaker. Massive war all over the world by these new Andals or traders or whatever race fore dominion ends most life everywhere. Then comes spring. A new board to play with only a handfull pieces....

Or something els...

Dont belive in crackpot theories though.

I have to ponder on this and more theories from my own perspective now!

[therustman]

Great read, I'll shall be reading the responses shortly so may return to edit this post but

maybe the Starks became 'The kings of winter' because they defeated the others.

maybe Bran saw an execution which was done in front of a heart tree (the gods) rather than a specific blood sacrifice - although the end result would be the same.

[WatcherOnTheWall]

So if your theory pans out in that the Starks are in league with the White Walkers against the Targaryens and their Dragons in an epic battle of ICE vs FIRE, which I find perfectly plausible btw, does that mean the only way to reach peace and balance is for the entire Stark and Targaryen lines to be extinguished? Leaving the neutral Andals to remain?