Ice and Fire Assessment...Theory (Long Read)

[House Mauldania]

Perhaps the LH had some sort of advantage or bargaining chip. He stalemates the WW's both sides retreat to their corners until next time.. WW's don't forget, men do.. WW's return for vengeance. As for why they would give the LH special abilities, why did Voldemort give Harry special powers?? Perhaps the WW's deal with the LH had some unexpected twist granting the LH's blood and bloodline certain abilities.

[Morgul-Blade]

I like that idea - I would gladly believe there was a Voldemort type power-share. Perhaps the WWs don't forget, because they don't die of old age, or something like that? And, what's with the comet? Is it a trigger for "Fire" returning, or does it signal fire's arrival (correlation/causation)?

This theory is awesome, but it makes me nervous that GRRM will have a tough time wrapping everything up in 2 books. Maybe it will finish with lots of gaps, to be filled in with small stories or a second encyclopedia! (Simply stating a thought - let's keep this thread on the theory, not about GRRM.)

[SOW]

"Only the human heart in conflict with itself was worth writing about"

R'hllor is the god of light, heat and life. The Great Other is the god of darkness, cold and death. They are locked in an eternal struggle over the fate of the world.

In my opinion, R'hllor and the Great Other are two conflicting sides of one God, who puts Ice and Fire in everything he has created.

"He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of Ice and Fire"

Jon Snow is very likely the prince that was promised. He is chosen to stand in-between the northern and the southern beings, and will decide the outcome of the ensuing battle between the two forces. Will he watch the northern beings slaughter the southern, who has betrayed him? Or will he fight off the northern beings, and then get stabbed in the back by the southern again?

Anyway, poor Jon will not have a happy ending. I just hope he will die a heroic death.

[Lady WentThere]

I'm just going to assume that this idea is wrong but it struck me as I was reading your post that maybe the Last Hero (Stark?) is cold hands? If the COTF left him to die and he was turned or whatever to the white walkers is it possible that because of this the COTF decided to give him his soul back (if that's even possible) for the sake of he would now serve the three eyed raven as who knows at some point the COTF might need a white of their own for help and because of his service (and some kind of magic/blood sacrifice) this is why the Starks have the abilities of the COTF? I am most likely wrong so please don't all shoot me down just an idea

[Lord Blairington]

Very good post. A lot of things here I do agree with.

Coldhands being the Last Hero is also very interesting. The way I like to think of the Wights is they have their memories and they're aware that they're still "living" in a sense, but the blue eyes mean that their will is not their own, that they're being remotely controlled by the walkers.

Whereas Coldhands doesn't have blue eyes, to me the Children can't give a soul back because the soul was still there but they can break the spell that the walkers or whoever is using to assert their own will on them.

First time poster, been lurking here for a long time since finishing the books the first time round. Seems to be how most people get started haha :)

[igrewupinKL]

Very nice OP post (i can't believe that was back in 2012)

The only thing is...what is in it for the white walkers? say they did make a deal with the Last Hero/Stark....what did they get out of the deal? It seems to me as if they gained nothing out of it. A wall was built to keep them out of the rest of the realm and they had to retreat to the lands of always winter for thousands of years.

Perhaps what they got out of it were Wildlings. The wildlings always say that they were just on the wrong side of the wall, this could have been part of the deal. The WW could have their pick of sacrifices, where some would be wights and others were special (night's King, Craster) to build up a sufficient army to invade. However perhaps the COTF intervened and bound magic to the wall and therefore they haven't been able to get past it. (weirwood doors in the Nightfort, NW vows needing to be pledged to the weirwood)

[Lord Blairington]

Very nice OP post (i can't believe that was back in 2012)

The only thing is...what is in it for the white walkers? say they did make a deal with the Last Hero/Stark....what did they get out of the deal? It seems to me as if they gained nothing out of it. A wall was built to keep them out of the rest of the realm and they had to retreat to the lands of always winter for thousands of years.

Perhaps what they got out of it were Wildlings. The wildlings always say that they were just on the wrong side of the wall, this could have been part of the deal. The WW could have their pick of sacrifices, where some would be wights and others were special (night's King, Craster) to build up a sufficient army to invade. However perhaps the COTF intervened and bound magic to the wall and therefore they haven't been able to get past it. (weirwood doors in the Nightfort, NW vows needing to be pledged to the weirwood)

I agree. Very good point. They would want to exist as a species and as far as we know they can't reproduce on their own, they need human babies to turn into a Walker. So perhaps the pact had a section where humans agreed to provide children under certain circumstances. Wildling could have been the circumstance. Freemen being taken rather than subjects of Lords and Kings.

[igrewupinKL]

I agree. Very good point. They would want to exist as a species and as far as we know they can't reproduce on their own, they need human babies to turn into a Walker. So perhaps the pact had a section where humans agreed to provide children under certain circumstances. Wildling could have been the circumstance. Freemen being taken rather than subjects of Lords and Kings.

Yes! i think it makes a lot of sense for this theory. I'm still not sold on the Starks brokering a deal with the WW, but it seems extremely feasible.

I agree with what you were saying about the wights btw. I made a thread about this a while ago, but basically i thiink the wights retain a part of themselves but the WW completely control them and can use their memories to execute their own will. However i believe coldhands is everything a wight is (dead) but is not controlled, and its very likely he is someone very old since the COTF do not see years as the humans do because they live for a long time.

Also, welcome to the Forums!! :cheers:

[Lord Blairington]

Yes! i think it makes a lot of sense for this theory. I'm still not sold on the Starks brokering a deal with the WW, but it seems extremely feasible.

I agree with what you were saying about the wights btw. I made a thread about this a while ago, but basically i thiink the wights retain a part of themselves but the WW completely control them and can use their memories to execute their own will. However i believe coldhands is everything a wight is (dead) but is not controlled, and its very likely he is someone very old since the COTF do not see years as the humans do because they live for a long time.

Also, welcome to the Forums!! :cheers:

Thanks :) Been meaning to get set up for a while.

Yup. To me the walkers are cold and detached from life. What's good for them is the deep cold, they thrive in the coldest regions and flee from warmth but the rest of life can't exist in this setting unless dead.

The dragons are the same but on the other end of the spectrum (or other side of the coin). They require extreme heat and thrive in this setting themselves. But again, the rest of life would burn up. So both sides are both good and bad depending on the reader.

As you say, the walkers will look at time differently to the rest of the world. Much like how the Children are described as doing. If we learn more of their culture we can learn more about their origins, which could bring more info to whether this R'hllor and The Great Other actually exist. It's still debated that these religions came about as a way of humans understanding the magics within the world or if these God's do actually exist.

Personally I like deities in my fantasy reads but I wouldn't be disappointed if they didn't exist either.

[imaginepageant]

Perhaps the WW's deal with the LH had some unexpected twist granting the LH's blood and bloodline certain abilities.

I haven't read this entire thread so this might've already been suggested, but...

What ability do we know exists in the blood of the First Men? Skinchanging. That's what the Others could have gotten out of the deal, the ability to warg the dead. The legend of the Long Night states that the Others "raised the dead to fight the living," but perhaps they had little control over their wights at that point, and the pact made with the Last Hero gave them the ability to fully control them.

[Lord Blairington]

I haven't read this entire thread so this might've already been suggested, but...

What ability do we know exists in the blood of the First Men? Skinchanging. That's what the Others could have gotten out of the deal, the ability to warg the dead. The legend of the Long Night states that the Others "raised the dead to fight the living," but perhaps they had little control over their wights at that point, and the pact made with the Last Hero gave them the ability to fully control them.

I never thought of this. It's a very plausible theory and I like it. There must be another condition in the pact that has been broken though to make the walkers want to start a war and another Long Night. I believe this has come from humans forgetting to supply babies. That in effect cuts off the walkers from "reproducing", which to me is enough to warrant gearing up for war.

Of course, crackpot theory but it fits based on the little info we have of the walkers, their culture and the details of the pact.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

I don't agree with everything here, such as the idea that we'll have Bran vs. Dany (Bloodraven, is in fact First Men and Valyrian blood), but it's a great post, with some fascinating thoughts on parallels between the Starks and the Targaryens

I would recommend structuring it a little more neatly and using direct quotes to really make its ideas rock solid.

Great job OP!

[igrewupinKL]

Thanks :) Been meaning to get set up for a while.

Yup. To me the walkers are cold and detached from life. What's good for them is the deep cold, they thrive in the coldest regions and flee from warmth but the rest of life can't exist in this setting unless dead.

The dragons are the same but on the other end of the spectrum (or other side of the coin). They require extreme heat and thrive in this setting themselves. But again, the rest of life would burn up. So both sides are both good and bad depending on the reader.

As you say, the walkers will look at time differently to the rest of the world. Much like how the Children are described as doing. If we learn more of their culture we can learn more about their origins, which could bring more info to whether this R'hllor and The Great Other actually exist. It's still debated that these religions came about as a way of humans understanding the magics within the world or if these God's do actually exist.

Personally I like deities in my fantasy reads but I wouldn't be disappointed if they didn't exist either.

I think you are right about a lot of things. I see the gods being a consequence of the magic...so they don't really exist but people just think they do.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Like this, but Essos is not all arid desert. We have semi tropical forests, tundra plains, savanna and steppe, hills and rivers, deltas and flatlands.

[DrogonsWarg]

First post for me even though I've been reading the forums for a while. This is a wonderful and very well thought out theory and I agree with most of the points. Dany and Jon having any kind of interaction seems fascinating to me so looking forward to that. Plus, Bran's arc has been one of the most interesting and I'm really excited to see what the future has in store for him.

[asimetrikal]

Origins:

The First Mens origins are tied to the Children of the Forest (COTF). 10-12,000 years ago the First Men crossed the land bridge that connected Essos to Westeros. They began fighting the COTF and chopping down weirwoods in order to gain dominance in Westeros. They fought for thousands of years (An example of inaccurate history). Eventually, a truce was made. The COTF kept to the forest, hills, tunnels, etc and the First Men essentially gained everything else. They also agreed not to cut down anymore heart trees, which was probably a big deal. For 4,000 years they seemed to live peacefully side by side more or less.

The Valyrians origins are tied to the Dragons. They were shepherds living on the Valyrian peninsula. Peaceful people Im guessing. At least 5,000 years ago (Id say closer to 6,000) they stumbled upon the fourteen fires and discovered Dragons and their lairs. They began teaching, training and taming the Dragons and eventually began to ride them.

Notes:

- The First Men stumbled across the COTF; the Valyrians stumbled across Dragon lairs

- The First Men tamed or conquered the COTF; The Valyrians tamed or conquered the Dragons

- Notice the time difference. Although the time periods are most likely inaccurate, it should be safe to assume that the First Men left Essos and conquered Westeros long before the Valyrians discovered the Dragons. This is an important distinction that I will come back to later.

What happens to these two cultures on the rise has to do with their bonding with theirpartners for a lack of a better word.

there are numerous serious issues with the ideas presented in this theory and the broad conceptual framework you're attempting to fit them into. this is the first one I'd like to comment on.

the first men did not conquer westeros. they migrated there, and this began a period of conflict with children lasting some indefinite period of time. the chief point is that it ended in a truce, a mutually agreeable pact (it's even called such) establishing territories and proscribed behaviors. the nature of conquest is that, well, someone conquers. conquests do not end in negotiated settlements. nor did the first men 'tame' the children. they came to an understanding in the pact. even if we use 'tame' in a broader sense of 'making more manageable, rendering more docile' than the stronger argument is actually that the children tamed the first men.

the valyrians did not stumble upon the fourteen fires nor were they ignorant of dragons until one day they magically chanced upon a cave mouth with dragon eggs inside. the ghiscari knew of dragons and they had an empire when the valyrians were still fucking sheep (i'm paraphrasing here). the valyrians' shepherd ancestors knew of dragons and the volcanoes on their peninsula. the taming of dragons was a slow, gradual process of trial and error and trial again, most likely taking many, many years. even today people born with valyrian blood don't automatically bond with dragons, and some dragons never bond with anyone. furthermore, it is unknown if all those who HAVE bonded with dragons even had any significant amount of valyrian ancestry. dragons are too recently domesticated and the rate of gene flow even on planetos is too high to reasonably say that taming of dragons is related to some sort of blood-derived magical prerogative.

I find it hard to believe that the First Men adopted the Old Gods from the Children, but that they invented the Blood Sacrifice all by themselves. Just to be sure we are on the same page, when I say Blood Sacrifice I mean the sacrifice of a life. When Bran sees the sacrifice through the eyes of the heart tree they slit the persons throat.

why? the first men had runes and bronze tools when they came to westeros. they didn't give those up and 'assimilate' the children's cultural traits of using stone weapons or forgoing a writing system. furtermore, the children are often described as 'singing the song of the earth', but i'm quite certain the first men had song before meeting them. i'm not saying the first men didn't adopt human sacrifice from the children, i'm only saying it's untoward to doubt they could have had this cultural tradition on their own. we simply don't know enough about the first men before they crossed the landbridge to dorne to make an assessment one way or the other.

Blood Magic:

Andals, that make up a majority of the population in Westeros, do not seem to have these abilities. Its no secret that the Children of the Forest and the First Men share these magical traits, the question is how? Could they have interbreeded? It is a possibility. (I believe that the crannogs are descendants of First Men and COTF interbreeding).

the possibility of the children and the first men interbreeding is probably very low. they are totally separate species with apparently differing biological imperatives. even in-universe the people don't consider the children 'men' in any meaningful sense. the ibbenese, the brindled men of sothoryos and the inhabitants of the thousand islands can all interbreed with men, although their offspring are stunted, stillborn and 'monstrous', but they are recognized as 'men'. the children are not called the 'men of the forest' or the 'people of the forest' because they are not men or people.

moreover, the diminuitive stature and physical features of crannogmen can be much more realistically explained as adaptation to their environment. a swamp is a dangerous, heady place, where even finding enough food for non-aquatic species can be tough. when you are smaller, you don't need so much food. large eyes tend to gather more light, which is useful in fishing the often murky waters of such places. in fact, the french word for swamp is 'mortimer' meaning 'dead water'.

Notes: Incestial Marriages:

-Given the importance of the blood lines, it makes a lot more sense for the Valyrians to practice incestial marriages and trying their best to keep the bloodlines pure. If you water down the bloodlines by mating with outsiders, the power within the magic also decreases.

-This also gives reasoning to why the Starks rarely married anyone who wasnt of First Men descent (There were many reasons for this, but bare with me).

it is quite a stretch, quite, to use endogamy (marrying those in your cultural group) to give scope to incestuous marriage. there seems to be a strong taboo in most cultures against incest. only developed, technologically advanced societies that produce centralized power structures practice formulaic incest. meaning, the targaryans didn't practice incest to keep the 'dragon blood' strong, but rather because they believed their blood itself and independent of the any 'dragon bonding' abilities it conferred superiority. this is evidenced by the fact that valyrian noble families, as a whole, practiced incest. remember the targaryans were not a powerful family when they left valyria for dragonstone. if all valyrians had the sanguine markers necessary to bond with dragons, it would make no sense for families to develop incest protocols only to preserve that, since all valyrians had those markers, and therefore breeding with them would not 'water down' this ability. the valyrian nobility, rather, seemed to practice incest to preserve other aspects of their 'genetic purity'.

also, how sure are we that the starks rarely married anyone not descended from the first men? maybe the lords of winterfell usually married women from other noble houses of the north, but the starks have been around a long time, so long that there's even a house sprung from them (karstark). even in the novels, this point doesn't have much weight. ned marries catelyn tully (southern house), robb marries jeyne westerling (westerling being a house of first men, but her mother being from house spicer, which is descended from traders from essos, meaning, not first men) and sansa is sworn to joffrey baratheon (ostensibly lannister, mixed andal-first men heritage, and baratheon, mixed andal-valyrian heritage).

lastly, grrm himself has said whether you believe the andal invasion came 2000 years ago or 6000 years ago, so much time has passed that there are no more 'only andals' or 'only first men' populations left. ends on the spectrum exist (the north having a higher proportion of first men blood, the reach and the vale having a higher proportion of andal blood) but at this point the distinction of first men vs. andal is better seen as cultural rather than ethnic in nature.

Notes:

-Valyrians built incredible towers and holds with fire magic, the Starks built the Wall and Winterfell with Ice Magic (Just to recall, Both are based in blood)

-Starks used to ability of Skin change to warg into birds, animals and plants in order to see over vast distances and to communicate with someone far way, the Valyrians used glass candles to see over vast distances and communicate with someone far away.

-Greenseers can have prophetic dreams, Valyrians can have prophetic dreams

-Starks were more tolerable to cold, Valyrians were more tolerable to fire.

(These parallels are not coincidental)

actually, these are only parallels in a selective and narrow interpretation of the evidence. one stark was known as a gifted builder, and that was some 8,000 years ago. winterfell itself is not particularly impressive from an architectural standpoint. and in the north, the biggest and most modern city, white harbor (the one modernized and ruled by a house of andal origin, no less) is the smallest and least memorable of the 'big five' of westeros. if the starks in particular or the northmen in general were such amazing builders, why do they only have one famous structure, and this one built so far back in the mists of time that, honestly, we can only say was built by who the fuck knows?

the valyrians building high towers with their 'fire magic' is as satisfying an explanation as dany's petrified eggs hatching after she sprinkles pixie dust on them. i think it is obvious that the valyrians possessed some thermodynamic abilities evidenced not just by their high towers, but also their long-lived roads, their ability to create valyrian steel and their mining of the fourteen fires. however, 'magic' is not, for me, enough to satisfactorily explain this. they must also have had a more robust, advanced or complete science of architecture, metallurgy and inner-space engineering than the world has today. after all, you can give me the strongest materials available, magically enhanced or not, but if i try to build a thing without an underlying understanding of how it works, the thing won't be built, or won't stay stable for long before collapsing. we could give a radio network to cavemen; they won't know that sound propagates through airwaves, and they won't be able to use it in any meaningful way.

White Walkers and the Starks:

I know many are not set on the connection between the White Walkers and the Starks through my interpretation of the Last hero, however even if you are not sold on the idea of the Last Hero selling his soul to the White Walkers for survival, you have to admit that the theory has merit.

no i don't. because it doesn't.

Battle of Ice and Fire:

This entire long thread has led to this part.

Eventually the Valyrians conquered most, if not all of Essos. The Blood of the Dragon and Masters of Fire Magic. One can look at the continent as one founded in the Flames or Light. Why? Some examples:

1.) Obviously the Free Cities were forged by the Fires of the Dragons and their Valyrian Masters

2.) The Religion of Rhillor is based here. The Lord of Light. Flames and Light, Light, Light. Traditionally the Lord of Light has had a hard time getting a foothold in Westeros

3.) Even the story of Azhor Ahai is about a savior wielding Lightbringer, who saves the world from Darkness

4.) Climate Wise Essos may have oasis, but overall it has a Northern Africa/India feel to me and after going through the Red Waste it seems that Essos is largely an arid, desert like climate.

5.) In Valyria the lands are called The Lands of the Long Summer.

So when we see Essos, their Dragon history and the Doom of Valryia, we should think Summer, thats the point.

the valyrians established colonies in the far west of essos, but they never subjugated the dothraki, the qartheen, the yi ti, the jogos nhai... in fact, they never made it past the bone mountains. after having killed off the ghiscari empire, the evidence points to the probability that the valyrians then began a long period of consolidation and exploration, at the end of which their primary concern became the rhoynar. the rhoynar were the first to develop iron-working, were populous, built cities of stone and towers that still stand today and were sufficiently warlike to cause serious concern to the dragonlords in valyria. in fact the entire westward expansion of the valyrians can be seen as an ongoing opposition to the rhoynar, where victory could only safely be said to be had when new cities were established to prevent their rising again to some kind of threat. some people tend to think of the rhoynar as victims that exist as a plot device to explain the 'otherness' of the dornish, when actually they and the valyrians are more properly seen as the dynamic engine of clashing cultures of the past two thousand years.

1. this is true

2. this is absolutely not. R'hllor and his religion began in Asshai, and not very long ago. From what we can tell the valyrians may not have even known of the existence of asshai, and if they did, it wasn't because they sent red priests there.

3. this is true

4. this is absolutely not. the red waste and the sands beyond the bone mountains make up a comparatively small proportion of the landmass of essos. andalos, the forest of qohor, the rhoyne basin, the dothraki sea (all grass) the bone mountains that are so tall and heavy with precipitation that their peaks are constantly white, the rich lands of yi ti, the mossovy forest. essos is a vast continent teeming with life and abundance. it is not arid, a desert or barren. and personally what is an 'india feel'? india has comparatively little desert, it has many rich valleys, mountain ranges and low lying tropical areas. why would you associate india with aridity?

4.) Although Westeros has many different climates, the North is cold and dark. Overall the North is the size of the other 6 kingdoms combined.

the north has summers and winters like everywhere else. so did valyria. even dany, in slaver's bay, adjacent to and on the same latitudes as ancient valyrian lands, recognizes that winter will even reacher there. the north is on average colder, but that's because of its higher latitude, not some intrinsic magical connection to an imagined half a system of binarily opposed sorcery. even if that was so, why is the north 'dark'? cersei and robert, on visiting in agot, both note how lovely and inspiring the country is.

and, let's assume you're right. why, when the north is equal in size to the other six kingdoms, would a person apply the character of one half of a thing to the whole thing? this is akin to saying 'the house of black and white in braavos is really black, cause you know, it's half black'.

I believe these two sides have been at war with each other since the beginning of time. I believe that either Light or Dark rules for a long time, but only to be defeated by the opposite who would then rule for an extended period of time. There are hints to this.

this is not a totally unreasonable assumption based on much of the evidence in the book, but in that case the 'opposition' is actually primarily temporal, not geographic. summer/fire rules a bit, winter/ice rules a bit, rinse, repeat. but the summer and fire could just as easily be the reach and the winter and ice in norvos. the chief concern is the cyclical nature of the thing, not where it manifests.

What is different about this generation? A Few things, but none more profound then the invasion of the Andals. The Andals through a wrench in the balance. They are neither light or dark. They have no stake in this war except to advance in a modern sense without magic.

When they landed in Westeros, they conquered all the Kingdoms except the North(Where the Power was the strongest). They killed the COTF and cut down the weirwoods, essentially crippling the magical powers of the First Men and Children.

the andals may be the most important culture of the past five hundred years other than the valyrians. it was their zeal and overwhelming military success that even gave westeros the cultural and political it had before aegon's conquest. remember, aegon doesn't date his reign by any valyrian system or reckoning of time as the first men saw it. rather he dates his reign from the time the high septon in old town crowned him king of westeros. the andals brought the faith to westeros, so i'd say they have a huge stake in it. further, andals were and are more powerful, culturally, then first men, and so if there is a 'balance' to be maintained it shouldn't be the first men representing westeros, but rather the andals.

Maesters: Somebody had to see through history, research, etc. this ancient battle of Ice/Darkness and Fire/Light. We learn that it was the Maesters that killed off the rest of the Dragons in Westeroswhy? Just because? Most Maesters today(Especially the higher echelon ones) hate magic, hate talking about magic, look down on it and arent above hiring someone to make sure you shutup about anything you think you may know. They wanted to end magic. Why? Honestly, a country is way easier to control without magic(Order).

maesters are bound in service to castles and keeps regardless of who's in power. they don't have wives and lands. they don't have a conspiracy to control any lands, and even if they did, they've chosen a highly inefficient way of achieving those goals.

there's strong reason to believe maesters don't hate 'magic', but rather wish to stop the suffering those practicing magic inflict on others. the maesters do know about greensight, but consider it a form of knowledge like any other the mechanics of which they haven't worked out yet. 'i don't know' isn't very satisfying as an explanation, but it's much more intellectually honest than 'super-secret-special first men blood!'.

There is something different this generation. No one has ever been born with both Valyrian and First Men blood.

this is patently false. off the top of my head i can say aegon (egg of dunk and egg) and betha blackwood. married for love and produced five children! valyrian and first men blood. and that's just off tthe top of my head.

Very long read, I appreciate who gets through this. Obviously I had many assumptions in this, but let me know what yall think.

i'm going to tell you what i think now. some of these notions can be reached from a close reading of the material, but there's so many assumptions, stretches and factual errors that they preclude a genuine understanding of the conflicts in the books. even if we ignore the factual inaccuracies, the underlying theory doesn't advance our understanding. we are meant to see an eternal, predominant and overpowering binary struggle, but to reach that we have to ignore factors that may outweigh the primaries in the supposed opposition. which is to say the first men and the valyrians are the representatives of this eternal struggle, but the rhoynar and the dothraki are not even mentioned, the ghiscari only a footnote, and the andals a 'thrown wrench'. there's a word that has literary currency now that i feel perfectly encapsulates the quality of the overall idea. lazy. these ideas are somewhat intellectually lazy.

no offense intended. but if the purpose of theory is to provide a conceptual framework that affords us a legitimate explanatory and predictive power, then we have fallen short of our purpose indeed.

[jjikira]

I was wondering you said that the valerians in order to tame dragons they had to blow a horn and whoever blows it dies. Just a thought Jon snow blew the horn he found with Sam

[Mehmet Eren]

it suits main idea concept of the series Balance, nothing is black and white or good or evil( but sure he have very black characters also ).....and to same the day or doing good thing things you have to bad shit.