Again With the Small Questions

[eRome]

They aren't. We don't know that any of the KG are with Rhaegar at the time, though I think it is widely assumed Arthur Dayne was.

Hightower was still at KL with Aerys when Brandon turned up. I believe he was later sent by Aerys to find Rhaegar and make him Hand and CiC after Connington lost the Battle of the Bells and Aerys was fed up with the succession of useless Hands that he'd appointed.

Whent may have been south, or may have accompanied Hightower, we don't know.

Well, regardless of when he went, Hightower stayed at the Tower of Joy when Rhaegar rode North to KL, or at the very least didn't ride with Rhaegar and went somewhere else, then showed up again at the tower sometime before Ned and his party arrived. This seems unlikely. There's nothing to suggest that he didn't stay at the ToJ with Dayne and Whent (assuming Whent is already there, which I think is likely as there's no mention of his movements prior to) Even under your scenario, it's odd that a KG (The Lord Commander to boot) wound't ride with the Crown Prince as the prince rode for war, but stay behind, especially if there's at least one other KG (and there's probably two) guarding the Prince's mistress. Unless the woman's not a mistress and he was ordered by Rhaegar to stay behind and guard the baby. My argument, and Scarlet Seastar's, is that, based on info from Selmy in ADWD, it's possible that Rhaegar has already taken control of the Iron Throne, if not in name than in practice, as his father is batshit crazy...

[dragontamer]

Why are skincahnging and warg different things? I know warg are the ones who skinchange into wolves but are wargs only capable to skinchange into wolves? Otherwise the difference is moot.

Being a warg means to form a special bond with a specific animal most likely a wolf or maybe a dog. Being a skinchanger means to be able to enter any animal's body and mind and control it but without forming any bond like Varamyr did with his shadowcat and bear who afterwards turned on him. Wargs are skinchangers but not all skinchangers can be wargs.

[dragontamer]

Well, regardless of when he went, Hightower stayed at the Tower of Joy when Rhaegar rode North to KL, or at the very least didn't ride with Rhaegar and went somewhere else, then showed up again at the tower sometime before Ned and his party arrived. This seems unlikely. There's nothing to suggest that he didn't stay at the ToJ with Dayne and Whent (assuming Whent is already there, which I think is likely as there's no mention of his movements prior to) Even under your scenario, it's odd that a KG (The Lord Commander to boot) wound't ride with the Crown Prince as the prince rode for war, but stay behind, especially if there's at least one other KG (and there's probably two) guarding the Prince's mistress. Unless the woman's not a mistress and he was ordered by Rhaegar to stay behind and guard the baby. My argument, and Scarlet Seastar's, is that, based on info from Selmy in ADWD, it's possible that Rhaegar has already taken control of the Iron Throne, if not in name than in practice, as his father is batshit crazy...

I believe that Rhaegar planned to overthrow his father, that's almost certain but that he had already done it.. I'm not so sure abou it. From Jamie's memories from AFOC :

"When the battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return".

He clearly says that he did mean to do something but hasn't taken any action yet. He speaks of "roads not taken" so I assume that although planned it never happened.

[corbon]

Well, regardless of when he went, Hightower stayed at the Tower of Joy when Rhaegar rode North to KL, or at the very least didn't ride with Rhaegar and went somewhere else, then showed up again at the tower sometime before Ned and his party arrived. This seems unlikely. There's nothing to suggest that he didn't stay at the ToJ with Dayne and Whent (assuming Whent is already there, which I think is likely as there's no mention of his movements prior to) Even under your scenario, it's odd that a KG (The Lord Commander to boot) wound't ride with the Crown Prince as the prince rode for war, but stay behind, especially if there's at least one other KG (and there's probably two) guarding the Prince's mistress. Unless the woman's not a mistress and he was ordered by Rhaegar to stay behind and guard the baby.

Its not particularly unlikely. Rhaegar has just been made Hand and CinC. There are, presumably, 3-4KG with him right then and there at ToJ and 4-3 at KL or rallying and massing the remnants of the royal armies.

Lyanna is probably pregnant, perhaps heavily so and unable to travel safely. The King and Rhaegar's family in KL are well protected by thousands of troops and an invincible castle, and some KG. Lyanna and the unborn babe have no protection at all. 3 KG protecting them make an enormous difference to their safety, which is just as much Rhaegar's concern as the safety of his other family in KL. 3 extra KG among tens of thousands make very little difference at all on a battlefield, in a seige or in a sack.

My argument, and Scarlet Seastar's, is that, based on info from Selmy in ADWD, it's possible that Rhaegar has already taken control of the Iron Throne, if not in name than in practice, as his father is batshit crazy...

I'm not arguing against your conclusion at this time (though I find it highly unlikely), just pointing out that your premise is faulty. There are good and sensible reasons to have 3 KG at ToJ. They make a big difference there, and comparatively little difference elsewhere. And Rhaegar has just been made Hand and CiC by Aerys, so has the authority to to make dispositions as he sees fit. Hightower is not in a position to argue with those dispositions, even if he wanted to.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Case in point: When Jon Arryn died, King Bob told Ned that he wanted to make Jaime Lannister Warden of the East. Now, I thought that being a member of the KG meant that a member would hold no lands, titles, father no children(like the NW). How can Jaime be made Warden of anything?

GRRM has said that he wrote the chapter where they find the wolves first and then wrote a hand full of others, and then stop and wrote the back stories for the series.

IMO/crackpot theory is that this is from one of the earlier chapters. That the hold no titles, came when he wrote the back story. I think he could not change that part without changing the whole chapter and prehaps others(it was a major reason for Lannister/Stark being hostel to each other in the early chapters), and he left it as it was because he like this scene too much to just cut it. They are a couple of other smaller parts in other early chapters, most of which can be dismissed by unreliable narrators. They also make the same mistake (Jaime as warden) in one of Cat's chapters in the Vale.

Warg is a type of skinchanger. There are others types of skinchangers, but GRRM only use the two terms, and uses them as interchangeable.

[FanTasy]

Warg is a type of skinchanger. There are others types of skinchangers, but GRRM only use the two terms, and uses them as interchangeable.

Are you sure about the interchangeable thing? Because a while ago someone did an extensive text search and the conclusion was that GRRM is pretty accurate when he talks about wargs (connected to wolfs) and when he talks of skinchangers (the generic term).

ETA This could be helpful too, it is from the Concordance here at westeros.org: <Skinchanger is a general term, and all wargs are skinchangers. However, a warg is a skinchanger who is bound to a wolf and not some other creature (II: 561, 697. SSM: 1, 2)>

[rmholt]

Well, regardless of when he went, Hightower stayed at the Tower of Joy when Rhaegar rode North to KL, or at the very least didn't ride with Rhaegar and went somewhere else, then showed up again at the tower sometime before Ned and his party arrived. This seems unlikely. There's nothing to suggest that he didn't stay at the ToJ with Dayne and Whent (assuming Whent is already there, which I think is likely as there's no mention of his movements prior to) Even under your scenario, it's odd that a KG (The Lord Commander to boot) wound't ride with the Crown Prince as the prince rode for war, but stay behind, especially if there's at least one other KG (and there's probably two) guarding the Prince's mistress. Unless the woman's not a mistress and he was ordered by Rhaegar to stay behind and guard the baby. My argument, and Scarlet Seastar's, is that, based on info from Selmy in ADWD, it's possible that Rhaegar has already taken control of the Iron Throne, if not in name than in practice, as his father is batshit crazy...

THe KG were under Aerys;; orders for the war. He sent them to Rhaegar which puts them under Rhaegar/s command. Finally the KG were sworn to their king. Sometimes in a dire crisis following the truly honorable route supersedes the "by the book" approach. There were KG with both Rhaegar and Aerys. So the KG at the T o J were doing their jobs. Aerys had the throne until Jaime killed him Rhaegar died first, recall. KG are supposed to die before letting their charges die but two KG survived the rebellion. Things dont happen all the time strictly by the rules. In fact, usually not. I note all Joffrey;s KG survived him. Three KG were with Rhaegar. I am sure Barristan would have died had he been allowed to - he was wounded in 3 places and not capable of fighting but not quite dead. Jaime took daddy's side at the end.

[rmholt]

Are you sure about the interchangeable thing? Because a while ago someone did an extensive text search and the conclusion was that GRRM is pretty accurate when he talks about wargs (connected to wolfs) and when he talks of skinchangers (the generic term).

ETA This could be helpful too, it is from the Concordance here at westeros.org: <Skinchanger is a general term, and all wargs are skinchangers. However, a warg is a skinchanger who is bound to a wolf and not some other creature (II: 561, 697. SSM: 1, 2)>

These definitions are also in general use. One can also find definitions of revenants and wights.

[WitchyBex]

Case in point: When Jon Arryn died, King Bob told Ned that he wanted to make Jaime Lannister Warden of the East. Now, I thought that being a member of the KG meant that a member would hold no lands, titles, father no children(like the NW). How can Jaime be made Warden of anything?

"Warden of the ______" is a military title.

[WitchyBex]

Is Maggy - the witch that gave Cersei the prophesy - Jeyne Westerling's maternal grandmother? It mentions that on the Spicer side, the grandmother was some sort of witch from the East and people would come to her for prophesies.

It is inferred.

[rmholt]

Its not particularly unlikely. Rhaegar has just been made Hand and CinC. There are, presumably, 3-4KG with him right then and there at ToJ and 4-3 at KL or rallying and massing the remnants of the royal armies.

Lyanna is probably pregnant, perhaps heavily so and unable to travel safely. The King and Rhaegar's family in KL are well protected by thousands of troops and an invincible castle, and some KG. Lyanna and the unborn babe have no protection at all. 3 KG protecting them make an enormous difference to their safety, which is just as much Rhaegar's concern as the safety of his other family in KL. 3 extra KG among tens of thousands make very little difference at all on a battlefield, in a seige or in a sack.

I'm not arguing against your conclusion at this time (though I find it highly unlikely), just pointing out that your premise is faulty. There are good and sensible reasons to have 3 KG at ToJ. They make a big difference there, and comparatively little difference elsewhere. And Rhaegar has just been made Hand and CiC by Aerys, so has the authority to to make dispositions as he sees fit. Hightower is not in a position to argue with those dispositions, even if he wanted to.

Rhaegar was not the hand. He was the top general of the army and the other 6 KG were assigned to him by Aerys. KL has one KG, Jaime. 3 KG at T o J. 3 at the trident. Lewyn was back after fetching Dorne. finallly although there is no statement that the folks of KG had a retinue with them it would be remarkable if they were truly alone. There is precedent for single or isolated group combat - Barristan was with an army when he went one on one with Maelys in the War of the Ninepenny Kings and Robert went one on one with Rhaegar. But we dont really know who was at the T o J tho it is pretty much necessary that at least some peope besides the principals were there. Thousands of troops at KL? Maybe at the trident. The Lannisters came supposedly to shore up Aerys and KL defense. Any KL troops remaining took off.

The facts have been chewed over pretty thoroughly in the R + L = J thread.

[WitchyBex]

I'm also wondering if Maggy being Jeyne's grandmother has anything to do with the Jeyne that Jaime saw at Riverrrun possibly not being Jeyne (the narrow hips thing), and Jeyne's mother being a schemer. It seemed pretty obvious that Jeyne's mother was in on the plot. I can't really come up with a reason what Maggy would have to do with this, it just seemed odd that Maggy was related to Jeyne. Maybe it was just a "it's a small world" thing.

I don't buy the 'imposter Jeyne theory'. Catelyn was viewing Jeyne through the eyes of woman scoping the mother-to-be of her grandchildren. Jaime views Jeyne through the eyes of an adult male that is used to being in a relationship with a an AGE APPROPRIATE (emphasis on AGE APPROPRIATE, not socially appropriate) woman. His POVs clearly distinguish that he separates teenage girls from grown women. I am 44 and there comes a point in growing older where you do begin to realize it might look an adult, it might be an adult, but is just too young for you.

[Bronn's Squire]

Hey Everyone, first time poster! So I've read all five books and am on my first (but assuredly not last) reread about midway through ASOS right after Oberyn Martell is introduced, which is an amazing chapter. My question is this: Is it ever stated why the Martells of Dorne retained the title of "prince" and "princess"? Maybe this question has been asked and answered before but not that I could find and I could find no mention of it in the books. Is it something that dates back to Aegon conquering Westeros or is it just a pride thing amongst the Martells? Nothing I'm losing sleep over, but just curious. Any help would be great!

[Tall-Talker]

I've always wondered, as faulty as it may sound, if Rhaegar was defeated in battle or allowed himself to be killed by Robert.

[angry lettuce]

Hey Everyone, first time poster! So I've read all five books and am on my first (but assuredly not last) reread about midway through ASOS right after Oberyn Martell is introduced, which is an amazing chapter. My question is this: Is it ever stated why the Martells of Dorne retained the title of "prince" and "princess"? Maybe this question has been asked and answered before but not that I could find and I could find no mention of it in the books. Is it something that dates back to Aegon conquering Westeros or is it just a pride thing amongst the Martells? Nothing I'm losing sleep over, but just curious. Any help would be great!

Hello there! I am not sure I understand the question correctly (or that I know the exact answer) but here's what I think:

1)If you're asking where the titles "prince" and "princess" come from, it is from their Rhoynish origins. The Rhoynish had these titles and when they landed in Dorne, they kept them. They have not kept all the customs so pride may be involved in this one

2)If you're asking why they were allowed to keep said custom I would say (although its just an idea) that its because they never properly got conquered. Aegon failed to conquer them, Daeron managed for a very short while before they revolted again. The Targaryens finally managed an alliance through marriage. i would guess that this might have given them more rights to keep such customary titles (although I might be wrong) and that definitely adds to the aforementioned pride :)

Edit: amd welcome to the forums :)

[Bronn's Squire]

Thank you for the answers. Even conjecture works for me!

[Ingeniero]

Was Barristan Selmy ever approached by Varys after his dismissal? Was he somehow recognized on Pentos and sent to Illyrio? How the hell did he get to where he is? missed that one.

[rmholt]

Was Barristan Selmy ever approached by Varys after his dismissal? Was he somehow recognized on Pentos and sent to Illyrio? How the hell did he get to where he is? missed that one.

He tells the story himself. He decided the Targ was the true king/queen.

[Ingeniero]

Yes but Illyirio sends him on one of his ships. How did he get to Illyirio? Varys?

[Foxhound]

Barristan knew Illyrio had been sheltering Dany in Pentos from the Small Council meetings, so he would know to head there.