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Angalin

R+L=J v.32

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Could the presence of the KG at the ToJ be due to the fact that Rhaegar secretly usurped Aerys and named himself King? Was that why he told Jamie that things would change when he got back?

I'm counting on Rhaegar usurping Aerys and the three KG 'turning the cloak' on Aerys and standing for a saner king.

Sorry if this was discussed before. :)

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Could the presence of the KG at the ToJ be due to the fact that Rhaegar secretly usurped Aerys and named himself King? Was that why he told Jamie that things would change when he got back?

I'm counting on Rhaegar usurping Aerys and the three KG 'turning the cloak' on Aerys and standing for a saner king.

Sorry if this was discussed before. :)

No apologies at order ... but if the three kingsguard were where they were because they were protecting the king, it could not be Rhaegar, who was dead by then.

ETA The clue lies in that the lord commander was there, in my opinion.

In AGOT we read that Barristan Selmy immediately after Robert's demise tells Ned that he (Barristan) can't be at the meeting of the Small Council because his place is with the 'young king'. This was before Joffrey's coronation.

It shows that the first reflex of the Lord Commander is to be with the king.

Of course they (the LC and the acting king) are not always joined at the hip. When Robert was at Winterfell Selmy wasn't there.

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I also believe the way Hightower talked about Aerys when Ned said he was dead implied that Rhaegar was still the crown-prince to the KG as well.

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Okay, I'll ask a question I posed as a secondary question in another thread, but, the more I thought of it, I'm truly curious.

There are a lot of shifting dynamics out there between Houses.

In another thread, there was a question if Dorne will blame Dany for Quentyn.

My question now is about Jon and House Bernatheon, and whether a leaner and meaner Jon might eventually turn on Stannis.

When you think about it, House Berantheon starting with Robert and the sack, and then later have caused a lot of grief for the Starks, at least inadvertently.

Theres the incident in Winterfell with Robert taking Cersei's side, demanding that Ned kill Lady, (and royal, or not they were guests of Winterfell and behaving badly), Renly vs, Stannis, and now Stannis and Co. at the Wall, and who knows how much trouble Mel is causing on behalf of Stannis.

Then add to that, Jon finds out the WHOLE truth about his parents, that they loved each other and what Robert did to Rhaegar, as well as what happened to his half sibings during the sack.

(I know that Jon will be devastated that he's not Neds son, but he may be furious at just how much misery the Berantheons have caused his family- certainly as much as the Lannisters),

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My question now is about Jon and House Bernatheon, and whether a leaner and meaner Jon might eventually turn on Stannis.

When you think about it, House Berantheon starting with Robert and the sack, and then later have caused a lot of grief for the Starks, at least inadvertently.

Yeah I think the keyword is inadvertently. The Starks were unfairly caught in wake, whereas the Lannisters are an actual enemy.

In regards to what Robert "did" to Rhaegar, one of the things that make that such a great dynamic is that both Robert and Rhaegar were more or less good guys doing what they had to do. In other words, it was war, and not some unprovoked murder.

Back to your question though, I guess a lot will depend on what Jon 2.0 will be like. My impression is that he won't be too concerned with getting revenge on certain people or Houses; instead, if he is AA / PTWP, he'll have a much more important job to worry about. I'm interested to see if he will embrace his Targaryen roots, or still consider himself a Stark...

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Did we finally run out of things to discuss on this? Quick...someone ask about Jon's burned hand!

This is for you, Budj:

Okay I am wondering why Jon, if he is truly Rhaegar's son, burned his hand when he was fighting the wight? And why doesn't Jon have Targaryen features? Wouldn't Jon have silver hair and purple eyes if he was Rhaegar's son? And what about Wylla -- Ned even says she is Jon's mother!

HEE HEE! (this is a joke, just to be clear, I am a firm believer in R+L=J) I think that about covers the usual "objections"...

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Yeah I think the keyword is inadvertently. The Starks were unfairly caught in wake, whereas the Lannisters are an actual enemy.

In regards to what Robert "did" to Rhaegar, one of the things that make that such a great dynamic is that both Robert and Rhaegar were more or less good guys doing what they had to do. In other words, it was war, and not some unprovoked murder.

Back to your question though, I guess a lot will depend on what Jon 2.0 will be like. My impression is that he won't be too concerned with getting revenge on certain people or Houses; instead, if he is AA / PTWP, he'll have a much more important job to worry about. I'm interested to see if he will embrace his Targaryen roots, or still consider himself a Stark...

I think that by nurture, he'll consider himself a Stark, and the knowledge of who his Mother is, is important to him.

However, I think what may be intrigueing is that all along, instinctively, Jon was always a Dragon.

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This is for you, Budj:

Okay I am wondering why Jon, if he is truly Rhaegar's son, burned his hand when he was fighting the wight? And why doesn't Jon have Targaryen features? Wouldn't Jon have silver hair and purple eyes if he was Rhaegar's son? And what about Wylla -- Ned even says she is Jon's mother!

HEE HEE! (this is a joke, just to be clear, I am a firm believer in R+L=J) I think that about covers the usual "objections"...

Yup, you about covered it, and I love the avatar. :)

(The Targaryens weren't the first silver-haired dragon lords).

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I don't think he will be holding it against the Baratheons. Ned was still at least somewhat fond of Robert and I think that Jon would respect Ned's opinion of him in the aftermath.

It's funny to discuss what Jon is like - what little we know of Lyanna (and assuming she is the knight of the laughing tree) Jon has a lot of her sense of right and wrong / protecting the weak mindset. I'm not sure we know enough about Rhaegar to say positive things, haha, but he definitely has the brooding thing down pat.

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I don't think he will be holding it against the Baratheons. Ned was still at least somewhat fond of Robert and I think that Jon would respect Ned's opinion of him in the aftermath.

It's funny to discuss what Jon is like - what little we know of Lyanna (and assuming she is the knight of the laughing tree) Jon has a lot of her sense of right and wrong / protecting the weak mindset. I'm not sure we know enough about Rhaegar to say positive things, haha, but he definitely has the brooding thing down pat.

Doh!

Rhaegar not a good guy?

You've stepped in it now :P

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Doh!

Rhaegar not a good guy?

You've stepped in it now :P

Au contraire. He was wise enough to say we are not sure enough about Rhaegar to say X, unlike the aggresive detractors who slam him high and low without having any real knowledged as to what actually happened nor what it meant (and frequently not even knowing the clues that we do have).

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Okay, I'll ask a question I posed as a secondary question in another thread, but, the more I thought of it, I'm truly curious.

My question now is about Jon and House Bernatheon, and whether a leaner and meaner Jon might eventually turn on Stannis.2

Theres the incident in Winterfell with Robert taking Cersei's side, demanding that Ned kill Lady, (and royal, or not they were guests of Winterfell and behaving badly), 1

1. That happen at Darry Castle not WF.

2. I think a better question would be how Stannis will react to learning that Jon is the heir of Rhaegar.

As much as Stannis seems to like Jon, could he turn and bend the knee to Jon? Stannis at times (like Robert before him) acts/has said things like its not that he wants to be king, its his duty. If given the knowledge that Jon is the Rightful King of the Seven Kingdoms, would he, could he turn and follow Jon? would it be a relief to him? Could he accept that R'hllor/Mel has lead him astray?

If he did, what would Selyse do? If he turn his back on R'hllor would she kill him?

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