R+L=J v.32

[Elric the White Wolf]

Yup, you about covered it, and I love the avatar. :)

(The Targaryens weren't the first silver-haired dragon lords).

Amen to that! I think the Melniboneans would have a thing or two to say to the Targaryens regarding dragon management, island homes, uses of magic, and so on. And Elric might have a thing or to to say about the dangers of magical swords (and magical prophecies)....

But hey that is entirely another topic, so I will stick to the topic here (R+L=J!).

[Alia of the knife]

Amen to that! I think the Melniboneans would have a thing or two to say to the Targaryens regarding dragon management, island homes, uses of magic, and so on. And Elric might have a thing or to to say about the dangers of magical swords (and magical prophecies)....

But hey that is entirely another topic, so I will stick to the topic here (R+L=J!).

Ageed, and Wolves as well, :thumbsup:

But yes, another thread.

Hail to Stormbringer! :D

[Emilydayne]

So...What if Edric Dayne is actually Jon snow's brother? It is said that they were milk brothers because Dayne's mother didn’t have milk. If Rheagar and Lyanna were both Jon and Edric's parents then this would make sense only there are not "milk brothers" but actual siblings. Edric Dayne could easily be older than he says. It’s pretty obvious why the boys would have been separated. Also, keep in mind that Dayne is also called Ned! Another reason why I really love this theory is because, assuming he is Rheagars and Lyanna son, he would fit the role of "the dragon has three heads" prophecy. Not all Targs are "dragons" (consider bloodraven... who eventually, like Jon, became lord commander of the nights watch. Edric Dayne, along with Aegon and Dani fits that role of dragon with three heads. All this would make Dayne perfect as Azor Ahai (the prince that was promised) with Dawn as his sword! Rheagar saw his son as the fulfillment of the prophecy. Rheagar thought that Aegon was the prince that was promised but if Dayne were his son than the role would suit him perfectly! Think about this... Dawn literally means- the coming of light. So too is it know that Dawn is a white blade and Ned's own memory of the tower of joy describes Dawn as glowing in battle. Reed, who survived the battle at the tower, is totally loyal to the Starks (especially Ned and Lyanna) after the tourney many years prior to the events at the tower of joy. Reed would have known about Lyanna and Rheagars boys but would never tell. Also Ashara Dayne would have knowledge of the boys...her keeping Edric and Ned taking Jon. No one would have cause to suspect. I absolutely think that Ned and Ashara were in love! But I am not convinced totally that she and Ned had a stillborn daughter. I am convinced that Ashara faked her death. Remember that the best lies hold truths! However the death of a child and loss of Ned would explain why she would leave Westeros (and Edric) and fake her death so no questions would ever be asked and Edric and Jon would both be safe. If she fled with Edric then people would start asking questions I have toyed with the idea that septa Lemore could be Ashara. Ashara was close to princess Eilia and it would make sense for her to want to be close to Aegon--with Edric, Jon, Ned and possibly her own child lost to her then it would be totally conceivable! If Ashara were the septa then the stretch marks would answer my question about the possible stillborn. But... I have major doubts about Ashara= septa Lemore because I think if she was Tyrion would know for sure. Tyrion does think that the septa has beauty but I feel like Ashara's beauty would be stunning to him and he would definitely pick up on her "haunting" purple eyes.

Hell at this point anything seems possible so I would like to point out that Jon Snow could very well be Ashara and Ned's son! If that were true then the story could have happened more like this-- When Ned came to starfall with Lyanna and Rheagars baby (Edric) Ashara had already given birth to Jon Snow (Jon is said to be older than Edric). Ned would then have to take Jon to Winterfell and away from his mother to keep Edric safe! If Ned had left Jon with Ashara then people might be more curious about Edric. It would obviously be very hard for Ashara to deal with hence her disappearance or suicide. I like this theory for a few reasons.. It reminds me of what Jon did with Mance's little prince and Gilly's boy (a boy with "kings blood", who's mother is dead, taken in by another mother who then forced to give up her own new son to keep him (the boy with "kings blood, safe. The mother who are milk brothers! It would also mean that Jon and Ned's trueborn children are in fact siblings--Everything about the Stark children and their wolves suggests that Jon is a sibling of Ned’s trueborns.

Final thought and it’s a stretch… After reading the Dunk and Egg stories I got the impression that purple eyes were a giveaway for Targaryens and that made me think that perhaps Darkstar, aka Gerold Dayne, is Areys bastard and brother of Rheagar, Viserys and Dani and maybe that’s why he was so intent on killing Princess Mrycella- payback for Rheagar+ Elia’s children who were killed by Tywin Lannister. Targaryen bastards named as Daynes? Targaryen males are known for having multiple lovers. If the Targaryens coupled with Daynes for centuries it would keep the bloodlines pure. If all that is true, could Ahara possibly be a Targaryen bastard too? There is this quote from Jojen Reed to Bran, “I dreamed of a winged wolf…” If, Ashara + Ned= Jon he could be the “winged wolf.” However, if Rheagar + Lyanna= Jon then he is still the “winged wolf”. Personally, I like the Rheager + Lyanna = Edric (the prince who was promised) and Ashara + Ned= Jon (winged wolf) with Ashara as a bastard Targaryen. All this being said, I do believe that the Aegon twist is true and that Aegon will become the King of Westeros and Dani will be queen. And I am convinced beyond a doubt that Edric, with Dawn, is Azor Ahai.

[Dragonfish]

So...What if Edric Dayne is actually Jon snow's brother? It is said that they were milk brothers because Dayne's mother didn’t have milk. If Rheagar and Lyanna were both Jon and Edric's parents then this would make sense only there are not "milk brothers" but actual siblings. Edric Dayne could easily be older than he says.

I don't really think he could. It's not often that one confuses a 12-year-old with a 16-year-old, which is about what his age should be if he's Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

Hell at this point anything seems possible so I would like to point out that Jon Snow could very well be Ashara and Ned's son!

Maybe, but that leaves several questions unanswered. Why does Ned think to himself that he's been living lies for fourteen years? Why is he continually haunted by the promises he made to Lyanna, and the price he made to keep them? Why doesn't he tell Catelyn or Jon who the latter's mother is, if the answer was as simple as Ashara? Why doesn't he list Jon as his son in his own head, after he goes to the trouble of listing all his other children? (And please don't say he was listing only his trueborn children; context rules that out.) And what could the vision of the blue flower growing from a wall of ice symbolize, if not Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

Everything about the Stark children and their wolves suggests that Jon is a sibling of Ned’s trueborns.

I wouldn't take the symbolism of the direwolves as an indication of direct familial relation between the children, given that the direwolves share the same mother, while the Stark children do not share the same mother with Jon. I interpret Jon's direwolf as an indication that he is a true Stark at heart, regardless of his name.

Final thought and it’s a stretch… After reading the Dunk and Egg stories I got the impression that purple eyes were a giveaway for Targaryens

Actually, this isn't true, per George's words here:

"Ran: Ashara Dayne is described as having violet eyes. Is this from a marriage to the Martells after Daeron II's sister married into that line, thus giving them some Targaryen features? From other Valyrian descendants? And, um, mind telling us the Dayne banner (emblem and field)? The Sword of the Morning and his sister has caught my imagination. ;)

George: I would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes . . . look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms."

This doesn't eliminate the possibility that Gerold or some other Daynes might be descended from Targaryens, of course, but it does mean that it does not have to be true.

[Black Wolf Smith]

So...What if Edric Dayne is actually Jon snow's brother? It is said that they were milk brothers because Dayne's mother didn’t have milk. If Rheagar and Lyanna were both Jon and Edric's parents then this would make sense only there are not "milk brothers" but actual siblings. Edric Dayne could easily be older than he says. It’s pretty obvious why the boys would have been separated. Also, keep in mind that Dayne is also called Ned! Another reason why I really love this theory is because, assuming he is Rheagars and Lyanna son, he would fit the role of "the dragon has three heads" prophecy. Not all Targs are "dragons" (

welcome to the forums, please feel free to read some of the last 30 or so threads about this topic.

Is there anyplace I can get a icon with a gun pointing at my head?

:bang:

[Alia of the knife]

I think when it comes down to Westerosi genetics, it is a nebulous process

Sometimes it matters, but, sometimes it does not, so trying to figure out when it's signifigant is complicated.

[Jaime4Lyfe]

Sorry, new to the boards, and so I am not sure if this has been discussed before. I also do not have the books with me...

Didn't Ned have a 'thing' for Ashara Dayne (the tournament with the knight of the laughing tree comes to mind, where Ben/Bran introduced Ned to Ashara)? Could Jon not be their child, together?

EDIT: Nevermind, a post above mine seems to be hinting at this as an impossibility.

[Ygrain]

Sorry, new to the boards, and so I am not sure if this has been discussed before. I also do not have the books with me...

Didn't Ned have a 'thing' for Ashara Dayne (the tournament with the knight of the laughing tree comes to mind, where Ben/Bran introduced Ned to Ashara)? Could Jon not be their child, together?

He did, but in order to conceive a child that would be slightly younger than Robb, they would have had to meet again well into the Rebellion - Jon was born about two years after the tourney

[Zupoleon]

Didn't Ned have a 'thing' for Ashara Dayne (the tournament with the knight of the laughing tree comes to mind, where Ben/Bran introduced Ned to Ashara)? Could Jon not be their child, together?

EDIT: Nevermind, a post above mine seems to be hinting at this as an impossibility.

I wouldn't call it an impossibility, but it is unlikely nonetheless. The evidence overwhelmingly points to a different direction...

[rmholt]

I wouldn't call it an impossibility, but it is unlikely nonetheless. The evidence overwhelmingly points to a different direction...

He was attracted to Ashara but he was what, 18?

Barristan was the one panting after her - too bad he was too dutiful. Ashara - cursed by the honor of men.

[Zupoleon]

Barristan was the one panting after her - too bad he was too dutiful. Ashara - cursed by the honor of men.

From what I can piece together, half the realm was panting after Ashara, heheh.

[eddard of the house stark]

Anyone knows what theories there are about Ned's promise to Lyanna, if the R+L=J theory isn't correct? What else could it be?

NOTE: i haven't researched it much.

[ParadiseSeeker]

About Edric, I read a theory saying that Edric Dayne is Ned's bastard son with Ashara (and that's why he's called Ned). We don't know Edric's mother's name, only that he's a member of Dayne house from an unknown woman, and he is a little bit younger to fit the theory he was concieved about the time Ned was in Starfall in the middle of his "Sorry I killed your brother" comforting sessions with Ashara. He wouldn't even have to know there is a child. I only don't know if the timing with Ashara's death fits. I though she killed herself right after/during the time Ned was there. But than again, I know little. He was than nursed by Wylla, a lady who nursed Jon during his time at Starfall.

I don't know about one thing: when you're a "milk brother" with someone, does it mean you were nursed by the same woman, or that you were nursed by the same woman AT THE SAME TIME?

And do we know how old Jon (and Robb respectively) was when Ned returned to WF with him?

[Dragonfish]

I don't know about one thing: when you're a "milk brother" with someone, does it mean you were nursed by the same woman, or that you were nursed by the same woman AT THE SAME TIME?

http://www.westeros...._Foreshadowing/

"1. How could Edric Dayne and Jon Snow be milk brothers if they are several years apart in age - 12 and 16 or so? Can a nursemaid really produce milk for so long a stretch, or perhaps did Wylla have a(nother) kid of her own when Edric was born? Or if Edric was lying, and why didn't Arya call him on it?

Edric is stretching the term a little... 'milk brothers' more usually refers to two infants of different parents who were nursed simultaneously by the same woman, but Jon had long been parted from Wylla's breasts by the time Ned came along."

Note that when he says "Ned" in that last sentence, he's referring to Edric.

And do we know how old Jon (and Robb respectively) was when Ned returned to WF with him?

Ned claims that he fathered Jon after his marriage to Catelyn, so officially Jon is younger. However, it's possible that Ned is lying in order to make his story more plausible. It may even be that Jon and Robb were conceived close enough together that Ned doesn't really know if Jon is truly younger or older. So I'd say that Robb and Jon are about the same age, with one being either a little older or younger than the other.

[ParadiseSeeker]

http://www.westeros...._Foreshadowing/

"1. How could Edric Dayne and Jon Snow be milk brothers if they are several years apart in age - 12 and 16 or so? Can a nursemaid really produce milk for so long a stretch, or perhaps did Wylla have a(nother) kid of her own when Edric was born? Or if Edric was lying, and why didn't Arya call him on it?

Edric is stretching the term a little... 'milk brothers' more usually refers to two infants of different parents who were nursed simultaneously by the same woman, but Jon had long been parted from Wylla's breasts by the time Ned came along."

Note that when he says "Ned" in that last sentence, he's referring to Edric.

Ok, thanks. :) I suppose the most probable theory (if Edric isn't lying), that Wylla did have another child on her own. There are women who breastfeed their kids till 6 years of age, but that's an exceptional thing, so I wouldn't count on that. I just wonder, if Jon is "oh so secret" (if Wylla is Jon's mum, Ned wants to keep her hidden and out of the picture, and if R+L=J, he IS super secret), does Wylla go around telling she nursed him and stuff?

Ned claims that he fathered Jon after his marriage to Catelyn, so officially Jon is younger. However, it's possible that Ned is lying in order to make his story more plausible. It may even be that Jon and Robb were conceived close enough together that Ned doesn't really know if Jon is truly younger or older. So I'd say that Robb and Jon are about the same age, with one being either a little older or younger than the other.

Yeah, I know they are born really close to each other (few months at best), and quite frankly I don't think it's important which one is older. What I meant is how old Jon was, when he first came to Winterfell with Ned (which I remember was before Catelyn got there with Robb, as she recalls coming to WF only to find Ned's bastard kid there. So I wonder how long did Ned spend wandering Westeros with a newborn (and if Ashara did have a time to give birth before her suicide)

EDIT for missing word.

[Dragonfish]

Ok, thanks. :) I suppose the most probable theory (if Edric isn't lying), that Wylla did have another child on her own. There are women who breastfeed their kids till 6 years of age, but that's an exceptional thing, so I wouldn't count on that.

On the contrary, it's not that exceptional. All a woman needs in order to continue breastfeeding is for a child to continue suckling on her. That's how Lysa is able to continue feeding Sweetrobin. Presumably this is also how wetnurses manage to stay in business.

I just wonder, if Jon is "oh so secret" (if Wylla is Jon's mum, Ned wants to keep her hidden and out of the picture, and if R+L=J, he IS super secret), does Wylla go around telling she nursed him and stuff?

Well, if that is indeed what she's doing, it's probably to throw off suspicion about Jon's true parentage.

Yeah, I know they are really close to each other (few months at best), and quite frankly I don't think it's important which one is older. What I meant is how old Jon was, when he first came to Winterfell with Ned (which I remember was before Catelyn got there with Robb, as she recalls coming to WF only to find Ned's bastard kid there. So I wonder how long did Ned spend wandering Westeros with a newborn (and if Ashara did have a time to give birth before her suicide)

Catelyn says that she and Ned were separated for a year. Given that they were married a few months into the war, that means that Ned returned to Winterfell with Jon a few months after the war's end.

[SFDanny]

So I wonder how long did Ned spend wandering Westeros with a newborn (and if Ashara did have a time to give birth before her suicide)

It's possible to see a scenario where Ashara gives birth to a child of Ned's before her "suicide" (I don't buy the supposed fact she is dead - no body was found) IF Ned and Ashara meet some three or four months into the war. What is ruled out is Ned traveling to Starfall after the events of the Tower of Joy, conceiving a child with Ashara, and Ashara then giving birth to Jon nine months later. We know from Martin, Jon is born around the time of the sack or a month or so later, not nine or more months after that. If you think Ashara or Wylla is Jon's mother, then we have to explain the meeting of either of the two with Ned in that time frame.

[corbon]

About Edric, I read a theory saying that Edric Dayne is Ned's bastard son with Ashara (and that's why he's called Ned). We don't know Edric's mother's name, only that he's a member of Dayne house from an unknown woman,

He's 3 or 4 years too young.

And his parentage is known. Its just not individually named. His father was Arthur and Ashara's elder brother, Lord Dayne and his mother Lord Dayne's wife, Lady Dayne. There is no mystery about his birth at all, other than what hyper-inventive fans speculate.

[rmholt]

He's 3 or 4 years too young.

And his parentage is known. Its just not individually named. His father was Arthur and Ashara's elder brother, Lord Dayne and his mother Lord Dayne's wife, Lady Dayne. There is no mystery about his birth at all, other than what hyper-inventive fans speculate.

I agree.

Ned is most likely with the Brotherhood without banners since Beric was betrothed to his aunt (Allyria I think) and he went with Beric as squire.

[Lady Tyene]

Maybe this is something that has been covered in earlier versions of this thread, but it's something that's been on my mind, and I'd love to hear your opinions.

I think most people can agree R + L = J is definitely plausible given the timeline and R + L's relationship and it would make for a fulfilling ending re: song of ICE and FIRE since they united in Jon and he seems uniquely positioned to fight the others. He also has the perfect cover: he's solemn, honorable Ned Stark's bastard son, kept way up in the north away from king's landing, raised as a true, humble northman. But, I have started to be suspicious about how other people could NOT know or at least suspect that Jon might be a product of Rhaegar -- or at least that some Rhaegar/Lyanna offspring exists. Lyanna was gone for a whole year when Rhaegar "stole" her away/they ran away together/whatever. It seemed obvious to most people at the time, no matter what side they were on, that Rhaegar had an interest in Lyanna. How could someone like Varys, who knows everything and has his own intricate plots for the iron throne, not piece together who Jon Snow was, or at least be suspicious of another heir? Aegon, Varys's pet project, had a whole host of people raising him for leadership. Clearly, Aegon has the Targaryen "look", but wouldn't he be at least a little concerned that Rhaegar could have impregnated Lyanna -- whether by rape or love? And that Rhaegar would have cared about the fate of his offspring and maybe provided a plan or protection for him... Or maybe the Lannisters or Robert Baratheon himself would have sought out this potential Rhaegar heir, as they made sure to do away with Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, and of course Rhaegar himself.

Anyway, I'm not using this as an argument against R+L=J, I just genuinely want to know what everyone else thinks about this. If we have been able to garner such a clear theory just hearing bits and pieces of what happened from characters' 16 year old memories, there must have been some people who could have at least held suspicions about a possible R+L offspring. And not necessarily just Varys or the Lannisters or Robert, but anyone involved in the war, or knew of Rhaegar or Lyanna's whereabouts or of their relationship. In light of the fact that plenty of houses and important lords were Targaryen loyalists up until the end (and huge Rhaegar fans), I feel like people would have been keenly interested in any of Rhaegar's...exploits. :wideeyed: