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Theory on Maggy's prophecy and new definition for 'Volanqar'


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So you think it's Arya?

I don't think that's likely, no. I think Jaime is the most likely possibility, but I could also see it being someone like Stannis, or Aegon, or Dany, or Loras, someone like that. I like the idea of it being Loras considering how little credit she gives him for his ability.

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I don't know if this is good or not, but I always thought that the valonqar could be like a member of the Night's Watch, the Kingsguard or even the Faith, because these organizations all have 'brothers' in them.

Seems possible though perhaps unspecific to the extent that it would make the prophesy seem something of a reach in hindsight.

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  • 2 weeks later...

This is my first try at this, and i just came up with this looking at the prophecy.

Cersei:''Will the king and i have children?''

Maggy:''Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you.''

Maggy: ''Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,'' she said. ''And when your tears have drowned you, the volanqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you''

^ I think looking at this chronologically, it implies that all of Cersei's kids will die before the Volanqar kills her. So this could suggest Tommen and Myrcella will soon die, which will surely drown Cersei in tears.

As for the volanqar, it is said to mean little brother, but i think that is a big red herring. I might be over-thinking, but notice how it says 'The volanqar'. Why would Maggy call it 'The Little brother'?

''Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,'' she said. ''And when your tears have drowned you, the little brother shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you''

it would make much more sense for it to be 'Your little brother', wouldn't it? What is my point? My point is that looking at the whole passage, it makes sense that the volanqar could in fact mean father instead of little brother. In the passage the kids are mentioned, and then 'the volanqar', i think 'the father' would fit in perfectly, after mentioning the kids.

Read it like this. Maggy: ''Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,'' she said. ''And when your tears have drowned you, the father shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you''

It also makes sense cause before in the same prophecy, Maggy mentions that Robert will have many kids, and Cersei will have three, and then she mentions how the kids will have golden crowns and golden shrouds, but whats missing? The father. The whole part of the prophecy seems to be missing who will be the father to these children. Cersei asked about the children she will have, don't you think Maggy would have found out that her children will actually only be through incest? which is why i'm pretty sure 'The Volanqar' means the father (Jaime) and not little brother, which doesn't fit in the passage at all

How did i do?

I don't there is anything wrong with the passage. It's another language and all, i really don't agree on that part. And personally, It would be my biggest disapointed if Tyrion doesn't kill cersei...seriously, it would sour all my love for the books. But there IS a way that what you say makes sense... If Valonquar meant "second son" instead of "last son", understand? Jaime is Cersei's little brother too, right? Only there is one least than that. But going from 'little brother' to 'father', you just got carried away... wouldn't fit at all.

But either way, I don't think you're right. The other part of the prophecy talks of the other queen that will take her place.... That queen is not Margaery, it is Daenerys... that will hopefully encounter Tyrion on the next book.

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  • 3 months later...

The prophecy states that Cersei will die but only after all 3 of her children. Since Mr. Martin has said that events in the main series will basically be a repeating of events from the past, I think Lord Bronn of Stokeworth will continue to amass a collection of loyal sellswords and "knights" and sack King's Landing similar to how Tywin Lannister did during Robert's Rebellion. In the process, Tommen (and Myrcella too, if she gets back to King's Landing) will be slain to appease either Dany or Aegon. While Cersei is grieving, Jaime will track her down and throttle her to death because it was Cersei's stupidity that endangered the lives of their children and got them killed.

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This is my first try at this, and i just came up with this looking at the prophecy.

Cersei:''Will the king and i have children?''

Maggy:''Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you.''

Maggy: ''Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,'' she said. ''And when your tears have drowned you, the volanqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you''

^ I think looking at this chronologically, it implies that all of Cersei's kids will die before the Volanqar kills her. So this could suggest Tommen and Myrcella will soon die, which will surely drown Cersei in tears.

As for the volanqar, it is said to mean little brother, but i think that is a big red herring. I might be over-thinking, but notice how it says 'The volanqar'. Why would Maggy call it 'The Little brother'?

''Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,'' she said. ''And when your tears have drowned you, the little brother shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you''

it would make much more sense for it to be 'Your little brother', wouldn't it? What is my point? My point is that looking at the whole passage, it makes sense that the volanqar could in fact mean father instead of little brother. In the passage the kids are mentioned, and then 'the volanqar', i think 'the father' would fit in perfectly, after mentioning the kids.

Read it like this. Maggy: ''Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,'' she said. ''And when your tears have drowned you, the father shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you''

It also makes sense cause before in the same prophecy, Maggy mentions that Robert will have many kids, and Cersei will have three, and then she mentions how the kids will have golden crowns and golden shrouds, but whats missing? The father. The whole part of the prophecy seems to be missing who will be the father to these children. Cersei asked about the children she will have, don't you think Maggy would have found out that her children will actually only be through incest? which is why i'm pretty sure 'The Volanqar' means the father (Jaime) and not little brother, which doesn't fit in the passage at all

How did i do?

You did well but I might say a little over complicated...It actually could still mean the little brother...jaime came out after cersei. Little by seconds. the red herring in my opinion is just that you think it's tyrion and when in fact, while being twins, jaime is the younger brother.

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The volonqar is Jaime. Jaime is Cersei's little brother as well since Cersei was born first. Don't remeber the exact quote but it was something along the lines that Jaime was clinging to Cersei's foot when she was born. Or it could be Tyrion but I think that is the obvious choice and GRRM is trying to fake us out but, both are likely candidates. Jaime because he is disillusioned to Cersei and is finally seeing her for the horrible person she is. And Tyrion really doesn't need to be explained since he has already said himself that he wants to kill her.

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Also saw that someone posted that they thought Dany was going to replace Cersie but I think that Sansa has a decent chance. I know that it is a long shot but I like underdog stories and it would completely surprise 98% of people. Sansa has claims to North through the Starks, Riverlands via half Tully, Vale due to her aunt and cousin being rulers their, and something that I hope becomes a major plot twist, she also has some claim to the West since she is still technically married to Tyrion and he is now the legitimate heir. I think that GRRM has been quietly doing this but not drawing any attention to it so that in ADOS she will come out on top. I just don't see her being a major inheritor to each of these without it coming into play.

And yeah I realise that she only gets control of the West if Tyrion wants her to take over after him and, he has to take control of the West first, and other Lannister supporters must lose their power cause they won't want the 2 people who are blamed for Joffrey's death as well as Tywin in regards to Tyrion to inherit the West.

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Also saw that someone posted that they thought Dany was going to replace Cersie but I think that Sansa has a decent chance. I know that it is a long shot but I like underdog stories and it would completely surprise 98% of people. Sansa has claims to North through the Starks, Riverlands via half Tully, Vale due to her aunt and cousin being rulers their, and something that I hope becomes a major plot twist, she also has some claim to the West since she is still technically married to Tyrion and he is now the legitimate heir. I think that GRRM has been quietly doing this but not drawing any attention to it so that in ADOS she will come out on top. I just don't see her being a major inheritor to each of these without it coming into play.

And yeah I realise that she only gets control of the West if Tyrion wants her to take over after him and, he has to take control of the West first, and other Lannister supporters must lose their power cause they won't want the 2 people who are blamed for Joffrey's death as well as Tywin in regards to Tyrion to inherit the West.

I also think this. Sansa will be Aegon VI's queen but will either be removed when he dies or will die with him (Dany)
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I havent come across a thread on this forum that made me want to rip my hair out in frustration as much as this one has. I must be the only one that is 100 % sure its Jaime that

kills cersei. Shes utterly ruined his life , He was devoted to her but she humiliated him in every possible way.Its meant to be ironic because she hated Tyrion so much she was blind

to the hatred building in Jaime. Strangling is a crime of passion , stanis would have no reason to be so brutal to cersei he would just kill her. As much as Tyrion dislikes Cersei.She did believe Tyrion killed Joffrey and he sent myrcella to Dorne so alot of her cruelty to him was justified so he couldnt really come back to murder her for that.

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If Jaime is the valonqar, I think he will kill her out of compassion, not because he hates her. Cersei didn't utterly ruin his life - Jaime had a hand in that as well, and he knows it - he won't blame her for it. Cersei told Sansa that Ser Ilyn had orders to kill both Sansa and Cersei if the palace was breached, during the siege of King's Landing. Cersei had no intention of being taken alive. If she loses everything, she might prefer death to surrender - especially if she knows that Jaime will follow her soon after. She always believed that they would leave the world as they entered it - together.

If strangling her is a crime of passion, I think Tyrion is out as well. He burned out his hatred for Cersei in his hate-filled fantasies. His former self has started reasserting itself. He might still be intent on taking Casterly Rock from her, but he'll be content with that.

If her death is a crime of passion, I think Lancel Lannister will be the valonqar. He felt so guilty about their affair that he turned his back on his family and joined the church. He will feel even guiltier when he learns of his father's death - and he'll blame Cersei for it.

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Also saw that someone posted that they thought Dany was going to replace Cersie but I think that Sansa has a decent chance. I know that it is a long shot but I like underdog stories and it would completely surprise 98% of people. Sansa has claims to North through the Starks, Riverlands via half Tully, Vale due to her aunt and cousin being rulers their, and something that I hope becomes a major plot twist, she also has some claim to the West since she is still technically married to Tyrion and he is now the legitimate heir. I think that GRRM has been quietly doing this but not drawing any attention to it so that in ADOS she will come out on top. I just don't see her being a major inheritor to each of these without it coming into play.

And yeah I realise that she only gets control of the West if Tyrion wants her to take over after him and, he has to take control of the West first, and other Lannister supporters must lose their power cause they won't want the 2 people who are blamed for Joffrey's death as well as Tywin in regards to Tyrion to inherit the West.

Sansa has no claim anywhere. The North goes to Rickon or Jon, The Vale is Robert's (or Harry's and Sansas should she marry him after Robert dies), Tyrion could not hold the west because he's a kin-and kingslayer. The Riverlands are now Petyrs since he's the Lord of Harrenhal, and even if the rule was given back to the Tullys the heir would be Edmure and after him, his child.

And i think Jaime's the Volonqar.

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I think GRRM can still pull a trick and give us totally unexpected Volonqar, as of now I think the most likely candidates are :

1 - Jaime -the most likely option - and I agree with the poster who said that it might be even a mercy killing, something that sersei asks for.

2 - Tyrion - he keeps repeating that this is his intention upon return to Westeros.

3 - Arya (based on the concept that little bro=little sis in valirian)

4 - Benjen Stark (If benjen = Coldhands and if the others anc company reach as far as Kings Landing or at least Casterly rock)

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Quote: The Bastards Bastard

Sansa has no claim anywhere. The North goes to Rickon or Jon, The Vale is Robert's (or Harry's and Sansas should she marry him after Robert dies), Tyrion could not hold the west because he's a kin-and kingslayer. The Riverlands are now Petyrs since he's the Lord of Harrenhal, and even if the rule was given back to the Tullys the heir would be Edmure and after him, his child.

Didn't say she was first in line for each of the seperate areas. She would still have claims to them though. In regards to the Vale: I figured that the Vale would follow a close relative to the previous rulers (and inheritor of Great House) than some obscure relative 2-3 times removed. Regards to Littlefinger: has no claim, is just a sort of regent, and only has claim to Harrenhal/Riverlands as long as people respect the Lannister's choice to give it to him. I seriously doubt that is going to be the case since Lannisters are on their way out.

Just because she doesn't have direct inheritance doesn't make her an unattractive marriage option (maybe to form a peace treaty if nothing else). People really wanted to marry her being from a Great House when she had almost no chance of inheriting anything, now she is much closer to gaining land in her own right. And yeah that was when Starks were a Great House, but they kinda remain as one, just not as a known/legitimate one. The North's strongest trait seems to be loyalty/tradition. I doubt that will change when it comes to following a Stark over anyone else.

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