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Theory on Maggy's prophecy and new definition for 'Volanqar'


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I agree because it is a straight forward prophecy. No double meanings or anything. At least imo.

I see it coming true more because in typical stupid Cersei fashion, at every step along the way, she has done the very thing that would make the prophecy come true. She kills Melaria, and, because she was a nut job even then, didn't reason out that this fulfilled the prophecy, especially since she kills her that night. She goes ahead and marries Robert Baratheon, the "king" knowing this too is fulfillment of the prophecy. How many children does she have? Does she stop at two? No. She has three.

GGRM has shown that prophecy doesn't always come true, the stallion that mounts the world was straighforward but it didn't happen because other dark magic came into play and changed the future that would have been.

So, unless Cersei can find some magic to save her, then her other two children are going down with crowns and shrouds of gold and she's getting strangled.

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So, unless Cersei can find some magic to save her, then her other two children are going down with crowns and shrouds of gold and she's getting strangled.

The one problem I have with that is Myrcella will have to become Queen of Westeros in order for this part of the prophecy to become true, but I don't see that happening with Tommen dying. Is there a law or something that forbids direct female rulers (not consorts or regency)?

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So here is why I think it will be Sandor.1

As for Jamie2 and Tyrion....this post is long enough as it is.

And last but not least. I honestly know a Spanish guy named Sandy and nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition3.

1. Sandor has nothing to do with Valyria. The Hound is dead, but if Sandor lives on as GD then he won't leave QI again.

2. To think its Jaime is just stupid. He may hate her now, but he still loves her. His fate is far away from her. IMO he will never see her again. I also don't believe that Cersei's prophecy that they will die together will happen either.

3. Major cool points for that.

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I would like to express a more or less linguistic point of view to the problem of the prophecy.

Firstly, I believe all the parts of the prophecy are to be taken literally, as nothing points to a broader interpretation greenseer style.

It means that both Tommen and Myrcella will die, perhaps exactly in this order which will account for Myrcella's golden crown. And Cersei will have enough time to grieve over their deaths: hence, "and when your tears have drowned you". I don't think it'll happen in the nearest future.

Whoever the valonqar is, he will have enough time to get to our queen sociopath.

Concerning the actual killer: the use of definite article strongly suggests 3 things:

- he is probably not Cersei's little brother (otherwise he would have been "your valonqar");

- he is somebody's only younger brother, perhaps the only one left;

- he is the younger brother of somebody already mentioned in the prophecy.

As noted above, Cersei is bringing on the prophecy by her own actions while wholeheartedly believing she's doing everything in her power to avoid it. It might also be logical that, being quite self-absorbed, she doesn't understand that the prophecy could mean someone else's brother.

Which leaves us with either Robert's valonqar or the younger queen's.

I also don't buy "genderless" option for the Valyrian word. The Azor Ahai prophecy doesn't necessarily imply that "valonqar" is genderless.

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Hmm, okay, I can buy that. "the valonqar" is just sneaky enough for GRRM, so that leaves us with Stannis, which I could totally see him strangling her, or the younger brother of the younger queen...which is an open question as to who that will turn out to be.

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1. Sandor has nothing to do with Valyria. The Hound is dead, but if Sandor lives on as GD then he won't leave QI again.

Did I miss a part that that implied her killer would be Valyrian? Or does that come from the use of the word valonqar. I guess most of my opinion that it will be Sandor is born out of hope for an unGregor vs graveSandor fitght to the death.

... or the younger brother of the younger queen...which is an open question as to who that will turn out to be.

Just being silly but...if Sansa is the younger Queen then maybe Bran chokes her out with the branches of a weirwood. Their leaves look like fingers don't they.
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Isn't the important part of this - Cersei will see her 3 children into the grave. And then, she will be murdered.

It might be that this branch of the Lannister line will die out. Tyrion might not be capable of planting one in the belly. He has stated it's not for lack of trying. Jaime might be hung by Catelyn, and Cersei and her kids are marked for death.

It looks as if Arya, Bran and possibly Rickon at least are looking better than that. Starks win?

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I thought that the volanquar could be The Hound.

He served as the personal guard of Joffrey and before that perhaps Cersei? So its like he's almost part of the family. That's a weak connection but if he ends up being the Grave Digger (which come on, he obviously is) then wouldn't he be a brother? A younger brother of the faith? He is working underneath the Elder Brother, so it would make sense to call hima younger brother. Also if Robert Strong is UnGregor and the Hound is going to get revenge couldn't it be in Cersei's trial? We know Robert Strong will be Cersei's champion. So if The Hound is the Champion of The Faith, then he could both kill his brother (which I so want him to do) and by that kill Cersei in the process. Anyone else feel the same way?

Yes, I have often thought this. The key is in the fact that GRRM uses the word "THE" little brother, thus leaving it open for ANY little brother. This would have to be someone who is known for being the little brother of someone else, someone infamous. I think the hound fits this bill perfectly, however, how will the hound even know about the trial and everything going on in king's landing if he's on the quiet isle? And, with everyone thinking the hound was responsible for the masacre in Maidenpool, how would he even get into King's Landing and into the red keep without being caught?

I think Stannis is a stretch. Firstly, he is not younger than Cersei. Secondly, the in-law loophole is a bit obscure.

So, what other little brothers are there... Loras, if he lives. Bran, if he uses his warging powers, or Rickon (unlikely), how about Edmure? He's Cat's younger brother and likely to go to either Casterly Rock or King's Landing in the very near future..

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I guess it seems like it would have to be the younger brother of someone mentioned specifically in the prophecy, so to me that would be Cersei, the king or the younger queen. Any younger brother seems awfully broad, especially since so far the prophecy has been very direct. Melaria, dead, the night of the prophecy. Cersei married, not the prince but the king. And she has three children. Of course it could be Melaria's younger brother too I guess who could come out of nowhere.

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Did I miss a part that that implied her killer would be Valyrian? Or does that come from the use of the word valonqar.1 I guess most of my opinion that it will be Sandor is born out of hope for an unGregor vs graveSandor fitght to the death2.

Just being silly but...if Sansa is the younger Queen then maybe Bran chokes her out with the branches of a weirwood.3 Their leaves look like fingers don't they.

1. Can you think of any other reason for a Varylian word? Neither Cersei or Maggy were from Varylian stock.

2. Again I doubt we will see Sandor again, unless someone goes to QI and gets him. Since word has been spread out that the Hound is dead, I don't think anybody come looking.

3. What? oh, got you. Sansa is not and will not be a Queen. In this most think the younger Queen is Marg, or Dany. I have a feeling that we have yet to meet the Younger Queen.

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I guess it seems like it would have to be the younger brother of someone mentioned specifically in the prophecy, so to me that would be Cersei, the king or the younger queen. Any younger brother seems awfully broad, especially since so far the prophecy has been very direct. Melaria, dead, the night of the prophecy. Cersei married, not the prince but the king. And she has three children. Of course it could be Melaria's younger brother too I guess who could come out of nowhere.

Do we know if Melaria has a younger brother?

IMHO the younger and more beautiful queen is rather Sansa then Daenerys, and Aegon becoming king and marrying Sansa is a possibility. And Rickon might be the one to strangle Cersei a few years down the road to avenge Ned.

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I would like to express a more or less linguistic point of view to the problem of the prophecy.

Firstly, I believe all the parts of the prophecy are to be taken literally, as nothing points to a broader interpretation greenseer style.

It means that both Tommen and Myrcella will die, perhaps exactly in this order which will account for Myrcella's golden crown. And Cersei will have enough time to grieve over their deaths: hence, "and when your tears have drowned you". I don't think it'll happen in the nearest future.

Whoever the valonqar is, he will have enough time to get to our queen sociopath.

Concerning the actual killer: the use of definite article strongly suggests 3 things:

- he is probably not Cersei's little brother (otherwise he would have been "your valonqar");

- he is somebody's only younger brother, perhaps the only one left;

- he is the younger brother of somebody already mentioned in the prophecy.

As noted above, Cersei is bringing on the prophecy by her own actions while wholeheartedly believing she's doing everything in her power to avoid it. It might also be logical that, being quite self-absorbed, she doesn't understand that the prophecy could mean someone else's brother.

Which leaves us with either Robert's valonqar or the younger queen's.

I also don't buy "genderless" option for the Valyrian word. The Azor Ahai prophecy doesn't necessarily imply that "valonqar" is genderless.

I like this idea, but I think the brother mentioned doesn't have to be younger than the person they are referenced to. For instance, if the younger queen has two brothers, then the valonqar is the younger of these two brothers. An example of what I am trying to say is: Q: "Which brother killed Cersei?" A: "The younger one." In other words, both brothers could be alive, both brothers could be older than the younger queen, but it could still be the younger one who kills Cersei. I'm having a hard time expressing this idea so I hope it makes sense.

I agree the Valyrian word for younger brother is not genderless. If we look at what Aemon said it is obvious that the word that was genderless was dragon, not prince (Samwell POV IV-AFFC):

"...What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept into the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years."

So, Aemon tells us a word was mistranslated as prince. He then tells us that dragons are neither male nor female. Therefore, the original word must have been dragon.

ETA a missed word.

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The one problem I have with that is Myrcella will have to become Queen of Westeros in order for this part of the prophecy to become true, but I don't see that happening with Tommen dying. Is there a law or something that forbids direct female rulers (not consorts or regency)?

I think the way around this is that she can declare for the throne in Dorne, by Dornish custom. It hasn't happened yet.

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I see it coming true more because in typical stupid Cersei fashion, at every step along the way, she has done the very thing that would make the prophecy come true. She kills Melaria, and, because she was a nut job even then, didn't reason out that this fulfilled the prophecy, especially since she kills her that night. She goes ahead and marries Robert Baratheon, the "king" knowing this too is fulfillment of the prophecy. How many children does she have? Does she stop at two? No. She has three.

GGRM has shown that prophecy doesn't always come true, the stallion that mounts the world was straighforward but it didn't happen because other dark magic came into play and changed the future that would have been.

So, unless Cersei can find some magic to save her, then her other two children are going down with crowns and shrouds of gold and she's getting strangled.

But Dany did give birth to the stallion that mounts the world. Drogon is about to get the dothraki to bow down to Dany.

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I'd like to throw a thought into this....as someone mentioned earlier there are several "brotherhoods" in the novels....could the "the" refer to an amount of time someone has been a "brother" of one of these brotherhoods and not an actual "little brother"(sibling)? My thought here is that maybe the "little brother" is Ser Robert Strong. The irony here is of course he is not an actual little brother but the older brother of Sandor and he certainly isn't' little but he IS the newest member of the Kingsguard.....a little brother metaphorically....

I thought about this because of Beric's sort of crisis of conscience before he passed his "life" to Cat....if whatever magic was used to keep Beric alive is anything remotely related to whatever Qyburn has done to Gregor down in the Black Cells (and I realize we don't know what that is of course)...maybe at some point Ser Robert (let's just assume he is UnGregor for now) has his own "crisis" and realizes that it's the Lannister's actions that have put him in this "situation". Maybe he'll want revenge for what has been done to him....and the only Lannisters really in KL are Cercei and Tommen.

Other have also mentioned that the fulfillment of the prophecy seems to have been made true by Cercei's own doing....I think Ser Robert Strong fits that thinking nicely. Anyway...be kind as you tear this one apart lol

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the fact that it is "the volonqar" not "your volonqar" leads me to believe that it will be someone else's younger brother. aegon, bran/rickon, sandor, loras, victarion/euron. i think that it will be either loras or sandor. loras has been reported to cersei as on his death bed but i believe this is just to convince her that she is in control and he will really be alive and well and fight for margery in her trial by combat. i think that sandor is alive and well with the septons on the island that brienne travels to. kind of hopeful thinking but if sandor is with the septons he could potentially be the champion of the faith against cersei's champion robert strong... why else have sandor live if not to kill the mountain. also fulfills the prophesy "mountains crumble in the wind" plural mountains. i.e. gregor must die twice

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This is my first try at this, and i just came up with this looking at the prophecy.

Cersei:''Will the king and i have children?''

Maggy:''Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you.''

Maggy: ''Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,'' she said. ''And when your tears have drowned you, the volanqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you''

^ I think looking at this chronologically, it implies that all of Cersei's kids will die before the Volanqar kills her. So this could suggest Tommen and Myrcella will soon die, which will surely drown Cersei in tears.

As for the volanqar, it is said to mean little brother, but i think that is a big red herring. I might be over-thinking, but notice how it says 'The volanqar'. Why would Maggy call it 'The Little brother'?

''Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,'' she said. ''And when your tears have drowned you, the little brother shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you''

it would make much more sense for it to be 'Your little brother', wouldn't it? What is my point? My point is that looking at the whole passage, it makes sense that the volanqar could in fact mean father instead of little brother. In the passage the kids are mentioned, and then 'the volanqar', i think 'the father' would fit in perfectly, after mentioning the kids.

Read it like this. Maggy: ''Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,'' she said. ''And when your tears have drowned you, the father shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you''

It also makes sense cause before in the same prophecy, Maggy mentions that Robert will have many kids, and Cersei will have three, and then she mentions how the kids will have golden crowns and golden shrouds, but whats missing? The father. The whole part of the prophecy seems to be missing who will be the father to these children. Cersei asked about the children she will have, don't you think Maggy would have found out that her children will actually only be through incest? which is why i'm pretty sure 'The Volanqar' means the father (Jaime) and not little brother, which doesn't fit in the passage at all

How did i do?

Jamie is cersi little brother, she came out first.

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