Aussies LVIII -

[Stubby]

This is a good day http://www.kotaku.co...-passed-in-nsw/

Shame about the gays though.

Excellent. Come on WA, jump on board!

[karaddin]

I heard a comment from Penny Wong on the radio, saying Gay people are often accused of promiscuity, so its ironic to then refuse them an institution that would recognise stable relationships. I too, think its only a matter of time, but, recognizing that, it seems a shame to delay.

This is something that bothers me as well. It's like the logic is in part "gays are slutty sluts who slut because they don't get married, so we can't let them get married because they would be slutty sluts who slut and undermine the institution".

There was a magazine article I read at the Dr's once, a married man, after 20 years married, decided to go ahead and have a full sex change, they are still married, because they are still in love and still committed to one another.

That's actually a somewhat difficult part of law as well as long as same sex marriage isn't allowed. To legally change your sex you have to be single, as having a sex change while you are married would result in a same sex couple. This has been successfully challenged in one case, and there is one female same sex married couple in Australia as a result of them having been married prior to the sex change, although I don't have the case citations to hand.

[Stubby]

With respect to leviathan's post and mine above, I see in the local rag that legislation has today been introduced for the R18+ in WA.

[Jeor]

Oh, I agree with the Penny Wong comment (and I certainly wouldn't ever use the promiscuity argument). The last thing I'll say on this topic is about the referendum and human rights issue etc, I agree perhaps a referendum isn't the way to legislate for human rights, but if it currently isn't getting passed in the parliament, surely Bob Brown et al would be pushing for a referendum as an alternative option to get things done. No sane party would be able to argue against a bill simply introducing a referendum. It seems to me that it would at least be a sensible option, certainly if it has as much public support as Bob Brown says it has, and I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up.

On the R18+ legislation (which I confess I don't know heaps about) it looks promising, although legislation is pretty easy to get around in this sector (kids easily download stuff etc and often see things that are way over their heads).

[gryphon strike]

TWS I am sorry I missed your earlier post and am disgusted at the attitude taken by some of your coworkers. I think the protest itself was a bit silly since the moslems I am friends with would never think it was something serious enough to protest over.

It is not a matter of religion but rather that we are accepting people into this country who hold to cultural values diametrically oppossed to those that already exist here. This is a policy that is predestined for conflict, hopefully not physical conflict but with the Cronulla riots and the aftermath I think we are already beyond that.

Jeor I am not saying that the vote would have passed I am merely saying that this should have been a conscience vote for all concerned. Both of the major parties are totally out of touch with reality as it occurs for the average person in this country. I am not even convinced that the Greens are the answer since they are battling against so many conditioned responses from the general populace not to mention having there fair share of nutters.

On the bright side I would seem to be getting more work from different sources and I am of course going to win the 20 million tonight :)

[karaddin]

I remember reading 6-12 months ago an opinion piece that if the Greens wanted to transition to being a mainstream party they needed to rebrand including changing the name to try and gettison some of the baggage that the electorate has around the party that is no longer accurate.

[Jeor]

I remember reading 6-12 months ago an opinion piece that if the Greens wanted to transition to being a mainstream party they needed to rebrand including changing the name to try and gettison some of the baggage that the electorate has around the party that is no longer accurate.

I think I'd agree...the name "Greens" does seem to imply a one-issue party which is not the case if they want to make it into mainstream politics. There's certainly the capacity for a third party in politics since the Democrats have disappeared, it's sort of created a vacuum that I'm sure many swing voters could go to if they had a viable option. At the moment the Greens are stuck with the left-wing, communal hippie type of image - which in many ways is outdated and inaccurate, although I don't think they're entirely free of some kookiness.

Having just taken a look at their website, it's good to see they put up some economic stuff there (although I disagree with some of it). For instance, they don't like the GST (since it is regressive) and prefer progressive income taxes - which sounds good in theory, but when you have an ageing population with a growing number of retirees, relying on income tax to fund the government is just asking for trouble and is an example of short-sighted populism (lesser income tax collections because of less workers, but needing to pay for increasing number of retirees on pension = budget disaster). I know people don't like the GST (and the argument that it is regressive is fair enough), but it isn't affected by demographic change as much as income tax (old retirees still pay GST, as opposed to zero income tax) and is therefore one of the greatest protections Australia has against an ageing population.

[karaddin]

Yeah I forgot to say that I agree with it as well. I think "Greens" is a name for a niche party about a single issue, where they are trying to fill the role of left wing progressive party as the Labor party slides into an outright centrist position. I'm not sure what the Liberal party are doing, there are certainly some that look like an attempt to slide hard right to social conservatism (I think there is a world of difference between Cory Bernardi and your position Jeor - I agree with the people that disagree with you, but you haven't come out with straight up offensive comparisons like he does, he belongs in the Republican party, not the Liberal party here), however a change of leadership to Turnbull or even Hockey would change how I feel about the party significantly.

Oh I also meant to comment on the polygamy thing before. The problem historically with polygamy is that it has been mostly a relationship where an individual with a lot of power (generally a man) marries a number of low power individuals (generally a woman). This was bad enough when they were both adults, but it has also been the cases where its an older man to a number of young women/girls and thats where the ick factor comes from. This is a dynamic that differs from the modern reality of homosexuality so I don't think they are comparable, where there isn't any drastic difference in relationship power dynamics than in a monogamous heterosexual relationship. In a case where the polygamous arrangement is between freely consenting adults I don't have any issue with that either, but I definitely have an issue with exploitative relationships.

[Horza]

The "Greens" as single-issue, environmentalist party did exist, roughly from 1992-2001 - they were picking up left-wing Labor voters at a steady clip across that period but it took off with a bang after Tampa.

Matters are also complicated by the federal nature of Greens party organisation - state party orgs are laws unto themselves in many respects and there's big difference in political background across the board, from conservationist (WA, Tas) to ex-Trot central (NSW).

In the broad sweep of things the Greens are:

1) the party of the socially liberal tertiary-educated middle class (much higher % than any other party)

2) a totemic, catch-all part for left-wing voters of all stripes

3) probably stuck as a minor party as a consequence, as these are small but committed segments of the population who in their individualistic, principled, hipsterish way tend not to play well with others

[sh_wulff]

Sigh, I had high hopes this time for the gay marriage bill. How long before this can be brought up again? Is there a time limit on this type of thing?

On other news, here is a convo with a colleague at work:

Colleague: "What did you get upto over the weekened"

Me: "Went down to sydney to see family"

Colleague: "Oh so you were at the Sydney protest?"

:bang:

I have been asked this enough this week to wonder if I give off a crazy muslim vibe or something :P

Are you Moslem?

I thought cricket was your only religion ;)

[arantius]

@Nil - that's so funny! 'Cos, you know, you're such a hate-mongerer. Always stirring up trouble!! Like that time you sold your sister into slavery because she didn't like your boots.

I can't wait for the next Sydney meet; when is it??

Weekend of 19-21 Oct? Tam & I were thinking of doing a hike at some point, anyone interested? Or maybe just one of the coastal walks ... I think Sculpture by the Sea (Bondi to Tamarama) is on then.

[gryphon strike]

Karradin I am sorry but if you think that Labour is centrist then you need to reevaluate, Labour and Liberal are both way more right wing than Frasers Liberal government way back in the day.

Central means balanced and neither of the major parties are anything like that, I tend towards a central position with both left and right wing leanings, yeah totally freakin nuts I know but it is also true. The current parties lean to close to the fascist imo, while not actually having the guts to go that far.

[Leviathan I]

Labor* and Liberal are pretty much the same thing these days, it's just a question of which one has more competent leader but right now they're both incompetent morons.

[Jeor]

Both major parties are roughly the same because they are 'playing it safe'. Don't make any bold policy decisions, or do anything unpopular in case the polls turn against them. The issues that are 'big' in politics are always things like border protection, turning back the boats etc - and with all due respect to those involved, compared to many other things in the country, turning back the boats is a bit of a fringe issue that doesn't affect the average Australian and only plays on the baser (and in many ways ugly) instincts of the population. Good government (and a healthy parliament) should be the other way around - tackling issues of more significance and long-term strategy/vision regardless of the polls (eg Keating floating dollar and superannuation or Howard GST), instead of fiddling around the edges on small things just because they might win votes.

[gryphon strike]

Bump time I guess, I am not really certain since I have been working in Geelong this week. 8 hrs work doing deliveries and another 2 hrs a day travel time tends to leave me a bit tired. But boy am I looking forward to the money!

[Paxter]

Flying back into Perth tonight! Can't wait to get home for the GF weekend.

Carn you Hawks!!

[Stubby]

Flying back into Perth tonight! Can't wait to get home for the GF weekend.

Carn you Hawks!!

Your timing sucks. Cam leaves and you come back. You going to be around for a cuppa?

[Daemrion]

Just checking in. Haha...the thread just got really deep for a while.

GS,

I think Australian society are so influenced by the American political spectrum as the measure of left/centre/right that Labor is seen as Centrist in most people's eyes. Because their policies aren't like the Republicans who are seen as the definition of a right-wing party.

Jeor,

Agree that both parties are trying to play it safe. And definitely, I think there was that report due today about how retirees will not have enough money to retire.

[Maltaran]

As an occasional AFL watcher and neutral, which team should I support in the final? Collingwood's loss has made this a difficult decision, as I can't just automatically support their opponents this year.

[Stubby]

As an occasional AFL watcher and neutral, which team should I support in the final? Collingwood's loss has made this a difficult decision, as I can't just automatically support their opponents this year.

I'm kind of neutral this year - I don't have an issue with either time. Toss a coin?