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BANEE

Who is the Harpy?

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The Green Grace.

  • Harpies are female.
  • Daenerys tries very hard to keep the attacks on her eunuchs and freedmen secret, and cleans up the scenes of the murders, but several times the Green Grace arrives in Daenerys' court the next morning having heard about the murders. How, unless she was involved in committing them?
  • Hizdahr manages to get the Sons of the Harpy to stop killing for 90 days, suggesting he's associated with the Sons of the Harpy, but it's the Green Grace who suggests to Daenerys she marry Hizdahr suggesting he is her catspaw and that Hizdahr is the lightning rod to any suspicion.
  • To stop random killings of her people, Daenerys takes hostages from each noble family. But the Sons of the Harpy begin killing again once the Green Grace visits Daenerys and she admits she could not bring herself to kill the hostages she has taken from Meereenese nobles. Seems pretty clear here that the Green Grace gives her people the go ahead to resume killing.
  • The Green Grace is head of Meereen's religion, and a pre-Daenerys figure, yet seems totally ameniable to Daenerys radical agenda to end slavery, and her sweeping reforms. This would make more sense if she's actually working against Daenerys.
  • The Green Grace seems to have no trouble moving between Daenery's court and Meereenese nobility, even though the Sons of the Harpy are killing people associated with Daenerys' reign. She never expresses a concern for her safety.
  • Early in ADWD, Daenerys commands the Blue Graces to inform her if anybody arrives at their temples with battle wounds. From what we see, they never do.

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Same here. He has the most fitting atittude and the best motivation (namely, to take advantage of Meereen's political turmoil to further his own standing and influence).

For all that people suspect Hizdahr and the Green Grace, there is not a single stance of either of them actually doing anything suspect. By contrast, we have been warned that the Shavepate's family could never match the degree of political influence of Hizdahr's and we know that the Shavepate has consistently been defending the most bloodthirsty and inflamatory responses from Daenerys and Barristan.

It really looks like that while the Green Grace is correct in saying that Daenerys will always be seen as an outsider unfit for ruling Meereen, she and Hizdahr are indeed doing their best to handle the mistrust and avoid destructive clashes. Hizdahr may well be a weak ruler and is of course an unfaithful husband, but I don't know that we can hold that against him, much less think of that as evidence for him being the Harpy or friendly to it.

From all appearances, Daenerys and Barristan got carried away with their suspicions and misjudged the Meereenese, particularly the Shavepate himself.

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Same here. He has the most fitting atittude and the best motivation (namely, to take advantage of Meereen's political turmoil to further his own standing and influence).

For all that people suspect Hizdahr and the Green Grace, there is not a single stance of either of them actually doing anything suspect. By contrast, we have been warned that the Shavepate's family could never match the degree of political influence of Hizdahr's and we know that the Shavepate has consistently been defending the most bloodthirsty and inflamatory responses from Daenerys and Barristan.

It really looks like that while the Green Grace is correct in saying that Daenerys will always be seen as an outsider unfit for ruling Meereen, she and Hizdahr are indeed doing their best to handle the mistrust and avoid destructive clashes. Hizdahr may well be a weak ruler and is of course an unfaithful husband, but I don't know that we can hold that against him, much less think of that as evidence for him being the Harpy or friendly to it.

From all appearances, Daenerys and Barristan got carried away with their suspicions and misjudged the Meereenese, particularly the Shavepate himself.

The big problem I have with the Shavepate as the Harpy is that there seems to be a lot of acrimony between Hizdahr and Skahaz, to the extent Skahaz organises a coup to remove Hizdahr from power.

But if Skahaz was the Harpy, all he needed to do to keep Hizdahr from marrying Daenerys and taking power was have a single killing occur during Hizdahr's promised 90 days of peace.

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Meereen will still have a profound effect on Barristan and the Unsullied, and perhaps on Daenerys herself still. It is sad, really, how badly Barristan made so many of his calls.

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The big problem I have with the Shavepate as the Harpy is that there seems to be a lot of acrimony between Hizdahr and Skahaz, to the extent Skahaz organises a coup to remove Hizdahr from power.

And we are told previously (by the Green Grace, IIRC) that Skahaz could never hope to be as well accepted as Hizdahr, for some reason involving their families.

But if Skahaz was the Harpy, all he needed to do to keep Hizdahr from marrying Daenerys and taking power was have a single killing occur during Hizdahr's promised 90 days of peace.

That wouldn't serve him as well as the current situation, however. By letting the marriage occur and them manipulating events to show them as weak and unreliable, he hurts their credibility and support while improving his own.

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And we are told previously (by the Green Grace, IIRC) that Skahaz could never hope to be as well accepted as Hizdahr, for some reason involving their families.

That wouldn't serve him as well as the current situation, however. By letting the marriage occur and them manipulating events to show them as weak and unreliable, he hurts their credibility and support while improving his own.

That's needlessly risky though. If Skahaz wants to shut Hizdahr out, or undermine Daenerys' to the extent he takes personal control, he can do it without letting Hizdahr anywhere near the Kingship, which only makes Hizdahr another person in Skahaz's path.

He can make Hizdahr look like he has no ability to fulfill his promises. He can probably have Hizdahr murdered in his bed, since he'd control the Harpy's and the Brazen Beasts. He doesn't need to play this silly long game where he elevates Hizdahr to King and tears him down. So the fact that the Shavepate cannot stop Hizdahr's 90 days of peace suggests he has absolutely no pull with the Sons of the Harpy.

Alongside this, the Shavepate strongly urges Daenerys to execute the noble hostages, and begin retaliatory killing against the noble families for each murder. That doesn't make a lot of sense if the Shavepate is the Harpy, since his fingerprints and those of the Brazen Beasts would be all over that.

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The Green Grace or someone we don't know yet. It's also very possible there is no Harpy.

It most certainly not Hizdahr. Not coming on as tough or bloodthirsty enough. While he clearly is part of the Harpy's Sons, he was used as a ruse to marry and tame the Dragon.

I never beleived it was Hizdahr. He reminds me of the guy imoersonating the president in the old Superman movie and Zod seeing right through it - he kneeled too fast and too easy.

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That's needlessly risky though. If Skahaz wants to shut Hizdahr out, or undermine Daenerys' to the extent he takes personal control, he can do it without letting Hizdahr anywhere near the Kingship, which only makes Hizdahr another person in Skahaz's path.

My understanding is that he is aiming higher than just removing Daenerys and Hizdahr; he intends to use their downfall to make himself more influential and respected than he used to be.

If the Green Grace is correct in her assessment of the acceptance and influence of Houses Kandaq and Loraq - and she probably is, since she all-out states that only someone not of Meereen would disagre - then there is a clear current advantage for the House of Loraq.

He can make Hizdahr look like he has no ability to fulfill his promises. He can probably have Hizdahr murdered in his bed, since he'd control the Harpy's and the Brazen Beasts. He doesn't need to play this silly long game where he elevates Hizdahr to King and tears him down.

Hizdahr and even his House were already very influential, far more so than the Shavepate's. In fact, that is why they were seen as fit to legitimize Daenerys in the Meereenese's eyes (ADWD, page 295).

While the freed slaves may have had a different opinion, the Noble Houses of Meereen did not see Daenerys as a legitimate Queen and only tolerated her for fear of the dragons and Unsullied - and, later, out of respect for Hizdahr's judgement.

It is noteworthy that in page 295 the Green Grace describes the hypothetical offspring of Daenerys and Hizdahr as sons "of the Dragon and the Harpy", which will "fulfill the prophecies" and "melt away (Daenerys') enemies". Of course, Daenerys' enemies don't question that she is/has Dragons, so she is saying that she lacks some sort of Harpy-nature, presumably by not having strong enough a tie to the Noble Houses of Meereen. And she says flat out that the Shavepate's House of Kandaq isn't an acceptable substitute to Hizdahr's House of Loraq and that any Ghiscari would know that.

Hizdahr and the Green Grace are trying to avoid a civil war in Meereen by lending Daenerys legitimacy by way of her marriage. And the Shavepate is trying to promote such a war and hopefully sell himself as a known, reliable quantity with ties to both the traditional Noble Houses of Meereen and the plight of the common men. That will only really work if he allows Hizdahr to reach a position of power and them fail at it.

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The Green Grace or someone we don't know yet. It's also very possible there is no Harpy.

It most certainly not Hizdahr. Not coming on as tough or bloodthirsty enough. While he clearly is part of the Harpy's Sons, he was used as a ruse to marry and tame the Dragon.

Is he? I don't think he is being insincere in his support for Daenerys.

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Shavepate, Hizdar, the Green Grace... there was a time when i might have wondered, but i'm just so sick of Mereen at this point. Let the Harpy have it back.

Word.

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I think it's the Shavepate. He's very subtle, making it appear every step along the way that he's on Dany's side. And it's working. Obviously Barristan trusts him now, and if he had really killed Dany, then he could've easily taken control of the city (maybe the other cities as well) once (or if) they defeated the Slavers.

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I think it's the Shavepate. He's very subtle, making it appear every step along the way that he's on Dany's side. And it's working. Obviously Barristan trusts him now, and if he had really killed Dany, then he could've easily taken control of the city (maybe the other cities as well) once (or if) they defeated the Slavers.

Shavepate is sadistic beast - if Gregor and Varys could have a child - that would be him

but the guy that hunts, mutilates and murders Sons of Harpy to be their leader? Hardly - he would have to hide his double identity from both sides, or have some way of controlling Sons without them knowing whose orders are they recieving

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Sons without them knowing whose orders are they recieving

I'm sure he would. Why should every low level street thug know his identity. He probably has many subordinates.

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I'm sure he would. Why should every low level street thug know his identity. He probably has many subordinates.

Not every slum dweller - as in every organization there is hierarchy, top echelon should know who are they working for. Or they would start asking questions.

On the other hand - if they know who he is, why would they approve torturing and killing their own members?

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On the other hand - if they know who he is, why would they approve torturing and killing their own members?

Probably not, but does he? The only people we know he tortures are the daughters of the innkeeper in whose house the Harpy's Sons did one of their crimes; there is no reason to believe that he actually has had anything to do with it and the Shavepate was under no obligation to suggest this kind of interrogation to Dany if he had wanted to protect them. Most probably they are not the only ones, but the others may well be just as innocent.

In his position, it's plausible that he can easily turn the heat away from at least the the more important Harpy's Sons, if he is so inclined.

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the meereenese arc is so irrelevant to me that unless the harpy is ser barry, I won't give a fig. I see Slaver's bay as a stall from GRRM's part.

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Is Dany actually ever there when the torturing takes place? I'm pretty sure the Shavepate is the one telling her he's been putting people to the question -- and if someone higher up gets caught, he can just say whatever the hell he wants and then let them go.

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