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From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XII


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I know there were two castles, but Sansa's bit with the ruined castles in the clouds could represent the ruin of House Lannister ("rose and gold and crimson"), which was set into motion by the murder of Joffrey happening not too long after this sequence.

Oh we know the standard "textual" meanings, just playing around with alternatives :)

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squeeee! I love Clannad!

Checked out the LJ post, very, very interesting stuff there. Great minds think alike, eh?

The connection with Sansa and the sublime is something I've never had time to explore but really would like to! Her connection with the sublime seems to manifest in her internalizing and speechlessness in certain situations.. What some call "timidity" is actually Sansa becoming overwhelmed, such as at joff choking. She becomes so overwhelmed by horror that she cannot speak, and runs instead. The winterfell castle scene in particular is notable in it's lack of dialogue. she and Littlefinger speak a little, but it is actions, rather than words that are important in this scene. This is a fascinating paradox, because much of Sansa's power comes from speech, she is very persuasive with her words, and wins people to her cause using them. All things sublime seem to relate back to Sansa in some way ha.

EDIT: ^This made sense when I was writing it, but I don't know ho well it translates, sorry :blushing:

No, no it makes sense :) And it's something that's worth a more intensive look - you wouldn't be interested in writing it would you? ;) (I'm shameless)

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squeeee! I love Clannad!

Checked out the LJ post, very, very interesting stuff there. Great minds think alike, eh?

The connection with Sansa and the sublime is something I've never had time to explore but really would like to! Her connection with the sublime seems to manifest in her internalizing and speechlessness in certain situations.. What some call "timidity" is actually Sansa becoming overwhelmed, such as at joff choking. She becomes so overwhelmed by horror that she cannot speak, and runs instead. The winterfell castle scene in particular is notable in it's lack of dialogue. she and Littlefinger speak a little, but it is actions, rather than words that are important in this scene. This is a fascinating paradox, because much of Sansa's power comes from speech, she is very persuasive with her words, and wins people to her cause using them. All things sublime seem to relate back to Sansa in some way ha.

EDIT: ^This made sense when I was writing it, but I don't know ho well it translates, sorry :blushing:

It translates very well and I like where you are going with it.

I also agree with Sansa when it comes to her words. They are her sword and I like how she shows that in the long run, her words are a much stronger weapon.

I know there were two castles, but Sansa's bit with the ruined castles in the clouds could represent the ruin of House Lannister ("rose and gold and crimson"), which was set into motion by the murder of Joffrey happening not too long after this sequence.

I think that scene can be read more than one way. Your interpretation is one I've had in the past too. I like the way that lilenadheas as it makes me look at that passage in a new way and relates it very personally to Sansa and her storyline.

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haha, yay! I would love to.

Oh goody! I'm excited about this because it connects to what I stated in post # 2 about looking at the more "poetic" elements in Sansa's arc :)

**

And guys, I'm going to be travelling for a few days, and I've promised not to even peep at my laptop ;) so I won't be active on the thread during that time. I know some of the contributors should be presenting at least part of their analyses, and QoW is working on a mythological assignment I asked her to research. Feel free to leave me PMs to brighten my day when I return ;) but nothing that you need answered immediately.

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As regards Sansa's relevance to overarching themes within ASOIAF I found this interesting tidbit I would like to share;

"She threw back the shutters and shivered as the goose-prickles rose along her arms. There were clouds massing in the eastern sky, pierced by shafts of sunlight. They look lke two huge castles afloat in the morning sky. Sansa could see their walls of tumbled stone, their mighty keeps and barbicans. Wispy banners swirled from atop their towers and reached for the fast fading stars. The sun was coming up behind them, and she watched them go from black to grey to a thousand shades of rose and gold and crimson. Soon the wind mushed them together, and there was only one castle where there had been two".

""Come see", she told them. "There's a castle in the sky"

"they came to have a look."It's made of gold". Shae had short dark hair and bold eyes...."A castle all of gold, there's a sight i'd like to see".

"A castle is it?" Brella had to squint. "That tower's tumbling over, looks like. It's all ruins, that is."

Sansa did not want to hear about falling towers and ruined castles."

<snip>

lilenadheas, great post, insightful and thought provoking.

My initial reaction to this scene when I first read it was the appreciation of beauty and sense of optimism. Sansa's marriage is a low point and I remember taking this as a sign that she was far from defeated on the inside when reading it.

As for dreams and songs vs embracing realism here is some food for thought.

Finally, after a nightmarish day when the column advanced a bare mile and lost a dozen horses and four men, Lord Peasebury turned against the northmen. “This march was madness. More dying every day, and for what? Some girl?

“Ned’s girl,” echoed Big Bucket Wull. “And we should have had her and the castle both if you prancing southron jackanapes didn’t piss your satin breeches at a little snow.”

That seemed to amuse the northman. “I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter.

Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned’s little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.”

Sometimes, in an odd way, life really is a song.

Clouds are the source of snow and for Sansa snow is the taste of innocence and dreams. Both this chapter and Snow Winterfell open with Sansa dreaming of home and in both chapters she throws open the shutters to make her discovery. Both have night fading into dawn. This time she just observes while the next time she goes out and actually builds her castle from the snow that falls from the clouds.

The wispy white banners are a recurring image with Jon although they are usually made snow or ice. I noticed in the Tyrion reread that even his trip north with Jon contains an image of a snow banner

When the wind blew from the north, long plumes of ice crystals flew from the high peaks like banners

The castles start as black and grey the colors of the Starks and the Nights Watch. Would blue be one of the thousand shades of rose? Is that reaching?

Two great castles merging has a clear marriage reference and the impending Rose and Gold merger is an obvious one. The observation of a tumbling tower and a ruin also implies one great house conquering another. In this case it is the wind that mushes them together and the wind is the voice and power of the Old Gods. Her dream was of Lady and the Godswood-- of home. This is Sansa's POV and if there is a deeper meaning it should be applicable to her story. I don't see any marriage symbolism here for Sansa (though I don't really have all the House colors in my head either) but I see some potential with the one House sweeping over another and leaving it in ruins symbolism.

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As regards Sansa's relevance to overarching themes within ASOIAF I found this interesting tidbit I would like to share;

"She threw back the shutters and shivered as the goose-prickles rose along her arms. There were clouds massing in the eastern sky, pierced by shafts of sunlight. They look lke two huge castles afloat in the morning sky. Sansa could see their walls of tumbled stone, their mighty keeps and barbicans. Wispy banners swirled from atop their towers and reached for the fast fading stars. The sun was coming up behind them, and she watched them go from black to grey to a thousand shades of rose and gold and crimson. Soon the wind mushed them together, and there was only one castle where there had been two".

""Come see", she told them. "There's a castle in the sky"

"they came to have a look."It's made of gold". Shae had short dark hair and bold eyes...."A castle all of gold, there's a sight i'd like to see".

"A castle is it?" Brella had to squint. "That tower's tumbling over, looks like. It's all ruins, that is."

Sansa did not want to hear about falling towers and ruined castles."

I'm not sure whether this passage has been examined before, but I have some information that provides an interesting perspective. Seamus o Ghrianna is an Irish language novellist who wrote "Caisleáin Óir" (Golden Castles).

Here is a quote from the blurb: "The story of Séimí Phadráig Dubh and his sweetheart Babaí Mairtín growing up at the turn of the century in the rocky pninsula of ranafast in the Roses of Donegal is one of bitter sadness, as they are deprived by fate and economic necessity of the magic glimpsed as children.

'A Shéimí, goidé an cineál tithe iad sin,' arsa sise, ag amharc ar na néalta, 'atá os cionn luí na gréine?' 'Tá,' arsa Séimí , 'sin caisleáin óir a bhfuil na daoine beaga ina gcónaí iontu...'

(translation:'Shéimí, what type of houses are they,' she said, looking up at the clouds, 'that are over the sunset?' 'Yes,' said Seimí, 'They are the golden castles where the little people live..')

It is an extremely bleak story, and the golden castles of the title refer to the innocent and naive dreams of the childhood sweethearts. The little people referred to are the population of Tír na nÓg, a mythical place where no one grows old or dies, and everyone is beautiful (almost like a song ;) )

The golden castles in the sky represent the futility of living for your dreams, and not accepting the life you are living. Both characters pine away and waste their lives waiting for each other, giving up their own chances at love and happiness. Babaí becomes a dream to Seimí when he is working overseas, and guides him, keeping on the right path. But when he returns decades later, it is an old woman who doesnt recognise him that he meets, who refused a man who loved her and she loved in return in order to wait for a boy who never returned.

These golden castles are symbolic in Ireland, and I was wondering if there are perhaps any other myths you guys have heard of that are similar, or if it is just a coincidence.

Analyzing the Sansa scene above with this in mind is very interesting. (I believe it is the first Sansa POV after her marriage, but I may be wrong)

  • She is facing the window when her maids come in, and calls them to look out and this vision, she is avoiding her life in order to pursue dreams.
  • Shae and Brella have very interesting reactions.Shae is both wistful and contemptuous. As we know, she is extremely ambitious, and constantly trying to see the world of the royal court, which Tyrion forbids. Brella sees the castles in the clouds for what they are, ruinous. She has no ideas "above her station", and no expectations of a romantic life. She is practical, and dismisses the castle, but still sees it. Like a song she may enjoy listening to, but would never take seriously. (Shae seems to be connected to songs too, the friendship with the bard Tyrion is jealous of, and the song he sings right before he kills her.)
  • "she watched them go from black to grey to a thousand shades of rose and gold and crimson. " An interesting development GRRM seems to be making with Sansa is that her idealistic notions of knighthood and chivalry may be wrong, but that she herself is able to inspire knightly behaviour (Sandor, Tyrion and Brienne). The shades she is seeing in the clouds could be indicative of the learning curve she is facing, that while not all knights are knightly, there are still good deeds and selfless acts in the world. She is learning that there are characters of varying shades in the world. Sansa at this point does not want to hear about falling towers and ruined castles (though what she is seeing is Winterfell) but soon she will, and will rebuild the sun castle in the snow.

Just something to think about :) . I believe that Sansa's arc is the one Grrm is using to explore the dreams v reality theme, and the power humanity has over how differing and similar they can be.

I totally forgot about this. It is a fascinating idea. Good job!

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lilenadheas, great post, insightful and thought provoking.

My initial reaction to this scene when I first read it was the appreciation of beauty and sense of optimism. Sansa's marriage is a low point and I remember taking this as a sign that she was far from defeated on the inside when reading it.

As for dreams and songs vs embracing realism here is some food for thought.

Sometimes, in an odd way, life really is a song.

Clouds are the source of snow and for Sansa snow is the taste of innocence and dreams. Both this chapter and Snow Winterfell open with Sansa dreaming of home and in both chapters she throws open the shutters to make her discovery. Both have night fading into dawn. This time she just observes while the next time she goes out and actually builds her castle from the snow that falls from the clouds.

The wispy white banners are a recurring image with Jon although they are usually made snow or ice. I noticed in the Tyrion reread that even his trip north with Jon contains an image of a snow banner

The castles start as black and grey the colors of the Starks and the Nights Watch. Would blue be one of the thousand shades of rose? Is that reaching?

Two great castles merging has a clear marriage reference and the impending Rose and Gold merger is an obvious one. The observation of a tumbling tower and a ruin also implies one great house conquering another. In this case it is the wind that mushes them together and the wind is the voice and power of the Old Gods. Her dream was of Lady and the Godswood-- of home. This is Sansa's POV and if there is a deeper meaning it should be applicable to her story. I don't see any marriage symbolism here for Sansa (though I don't really have all the House colors in my head either) but I see some potential with the one House sweeping over another and leaving it in ruins symbolism.

I love your post so much. Sansa's snow castle scene is one of my absolute favorite moments in the entire series. Then you bring in that passage from Dance, another favorite moment of my mine. Learning more about the North is what made Dance worth reading for me so and I remember re-reading that bit multiple times the first time around. Seeing you combine all of these elements in to a single post gave me goose bumps reading it.

Edited for stupid spelling mistakes....

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I love your post so much. Sansa's snow castle scene is one of my absolute favorite moments in the entire chapter. Then you bring in that passage from Dance, another favorite moment of my mom. Learning more about the North is what made Dance worth reading for me so and I remember re-reading that bit multiple times the first time around. Seeing you combine all of these elements in to a single post gave me goose bumps reading it.

Same here, kittykatknits!

Well done, everyone. Keep the good posts flowing... :)

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I was rereading the opening chapter where the direwolves are found. Aside from being struck by warg like interaction between Bran and his pup and Jon's as well (he "hears" Ghost the mute wolf) I found myself wondering about the direwolf mother. Have you guys talked about this? Lady is the direwolf killed by a Baratheon and there are certainly "mother" themes surrounding Sansa. Then there's the pomegranate underworld/resurrection discussion from last thread. Any Sansa/direwolf mother comparisons been done?

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Oh we know the standard "textual" meanings, just playing around with alternatives :)

Ha! Fair enough. Obvious interpretation is obvious.

I also thought of the Les Miserables song "Castle on a Cloud." Could GRRM be a secret Les Miz fan?

Speaking of castles and ASOS, I was always struck by Sansa's thought when she doesn't want to disturb the "perfect beauty" of the snow-covered garden: "A pure world (...) I do not belong here." It sticks out to me, since I don't think that Sansa shows any other signs of viewing herself as corrupt/tainted/compromised/guilty/sinful/"impure." She sees herself as disillusioned ("Sansa pitied them, Sansa envied them" or however it's phrased with respect to Margaery's cousins), for sure, but that doesn't imply a lack of purity. Sansa implying that she doesn't think she belongs in a "pure" world suggests (at least to me) some sense that she believes that she isn't pure. It could just be her (acknowledged and obvious) loss of innocence, but to me, the passage makes it sound as if she thinks she has been somehow dirtied or tainted. I don't see evidence that she holds this belief anywhere else. When she's Alayne, she doesn't show any sides of pushing away her "Sansa" persona for that reason; she calls Sansa "that frightened girl," but that's it.

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I was rereading the opening chapter where the direwolves are found. Aside from being struck by warg like interaction between Bran and his pup and Jon's as well (he "hears" Ghost the mute wolf) I found myself wondering about the direwolf mother. Have you guys talked about this? Lady is the direwolf killed by a Baratheon and there are certainly "mother" themes surrounding Sansa. Then there's the pomegranate underworld/resurrection discussion from last thread. Any Sansa/direwolf mother comparisons been done?

No, but that's intriguing...

Ha! Fair enough. Obvious interpretation is obvious.

I also thought of the Les Miserables song "Castle on a Cloud." Could GRRM be a secret Les Miz fan?

Oh the things I would like to know about Martin :)

that came out wrong...

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Speaking of castles and ASOS, I was always struck by Sansa's thought when she doesn't want to disturb the "perfect beauty" of the snow-covered garden: "A pure world (...) I do not belong here." It sticks out to me, since I don't think that Sansa shows any other signs of viewing herself as corrupt/tainted/compromised/guilty/sinful/"impure." She sees herself as disillusioned ("Sansa pitied them, Sansa envied them" or however it's phrased with respect to Margaery's cousins), for sure, but that doesn't imply a lack of purity. Sansa implying that she doesn't think she belongs in a "pure" world suggests (at least to me) some sense that she believes that she isn't pure. It could just be her (acknowledged and obvious) loss of innocence, but to me, the passage makes it sound as if she thinks she has been somehow dirtied or tainted. I don't see evidence that she holds this belief anywhere else. When she's Alayne, she doesn't show any sides of pushing away her "Sansa" persona for that reason; she calls Sansa "that frightened girl," but that's it.

I think it was the cumulative sense of disenchantment after all she had been through up to this point. She was expecting to go home, but instead is brought to the Eyrie which is notably desolate and isolated. This idea of her herself as not pure like the snow falling around her illustrates that disconnect from home, which she manages to dispel by building the snow castle.

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lilenadheas, great post, insightful and thought provoking.

My initial reaction to this scene when I first read it was the appreciation of beauty and sense of optimism. Sansa's marriage is a low point and I remember taking this as a sign that she was far from defeated on the inside when reading it.

As for dreams and songs vs embracing realism here is some food for thought.

Sometimes, in an odd way, life really is a song.

Clouds are the source of snow and for Sansa snow is the taste of innocence and dreams. Both this chapter and Snow Winterfell open with Sansa dreaming of home and in both chapters she throws open the shutters to make her discovery. Both have night fading into dawn. This time she just observes while the next time she goes out and actually builds her castle from the snow that falls from the clouds.

The wispy white banners are a recurring image with Jon although they are usually made snow or ice. I noticed in the Tyrion reread that even his trip north with Jon contains an image of a snow banner

The castles start as black and grey the colors of the Starks and the Nights Watch. Would blue be one of the thousand shades of rose? Is that reaching?

Two great castles merging has a clear marriage reference and the impending Rose and Gold merger is an obvious one. The observation of a tumbling tower and a ruin also implies one great house conquering another. In this case it is the wind that mushes them together and the wind is the voice and power of the Old Gods. Her dream was of Lady and the Godswood-- of home. This is Sansa's POV and if there is a deeper meaning it should be applicable to her story. I don't see any marriage symbolism here for Sansa (though I don't really have all the House colors in my head either) but I see some potential with the one House sweeping over another and leaving it in ruins symbolism.

Wow. I loved reading that. .As to your 'life sometimes is a song remark', I completely agree.There is definitely a paradox present in ASOIAF, where GRRM hammers home the idea of life not being a song, and then contradicting himself in beautiful ways. It is not a song that Sansa would think to sing in AGOT, but the moments or actions that can inspire songs are there. One just needs to look for them with cleansed eyes and a clear perspective. I think the fact that Sansa has this insane ability to inspire knightly/chivalrous behaviour is testament to that.

I truly think there is some significance in her watching one castle in the sky turn to ruins, and building another one from snow. Snow and clouds even have an aesthetic similarity. It connects the scene for me in a tangible and powerful way, and marks Sansa's intellectual and emotional growth in the Winterfell castle scene.

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SanSan Although Sandor is no longer present in her life; he still has an impact on Sansa. She wishes he was there to serve as her protector/support. She wonders if she should have left with him. And he is the focus of the thought. She is not wishing she could be home or away from King’s Landing. She is thinking about Sandor at that moment. She keeps the cloak, the proof of their intimate moment, as a memento. Lastly, she thinks about the real reason he left. She empathizes with him and his fear of fire

{snip}

SoS Sansa II Sex

We learn about Sansa spending time with Margaety’s cousins. When talking about kissing, she reflects on Sandor.

Sex Sansa is for the first time in a long time hanging out with girls her own age. They are young girls growing into women. And this relates to growing up into sexual maturity. They even organized themselves on the basis that Elinor is the leader due to her being “a maiden flowered.” The part with them ends with Sansa admitting that they are children. She pities and envies them, but her childhood died with her father.

For Sansa’s part, she begins actively fantasizing about Sandor. Now that I have reread it, I think it’s possible Sansa isn’t remembering wrong. She is actively fantasizing about that time.

Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound, as she had. He’d come to her the night of the battle stinking of wine and blood. He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song.

The first sentence could mean “What would Megga think about kissing The Hound? I have thought about it,” rather than “What would Megga think about kissing The Hound? I have kissed him.” The rest plays out as a fantasy. It’s a memory she using to fantasize about. And who hasn’t had a fantasy that is basically, wish this would have happened? It is even closer to the fantasies of the other girls than Sansa wants to admit. While they picture the knights, she sees Sandor coming in smelling of wine and blood (something that is more realistic). And even the threat makes sense in a fantasy. Sansa has been exposed repeatedly to sexual violence. The BBW scene, Joffery ordered sexual assault, the riot, etc. It’s not surprising that she includes violence into her sexual fantasies. This is not the last time she does so either.

SoS Sansa VI Part 1 Foreshadowing/Misc. [Agency]/SanSan/Symbolism?/Sex

Sansa hears Lysa’s moaning. She reflects on her wedding night. She then takes comfort in the old hound until Marillon shows up. Later, Sansa has an erotic dream.

Foreshadowing Sansa hears Lysa and knows what is going on. She thinks about her wedding night. Her thoughts begin on Tyrion, but shift to Sandor. It gives support for later in this chapter when she dreams. She thinks about the most direct sexual experience with the man she is supposed to have those thoughts about and instead thinks about Sandor although this time it is not sexual when she thinks of Sandor.

Yes! Some more great insights into Sansa and Sandor's relationship. I focused on the above quotes because I think they really highlight a point we have touched on earlier, but this really makes a strong case for it. I am referring to the idea that Sandor is Sansa's tie to her true self. All the Stark children seem to be on a path that could lead them to a dark place, but Arya, Rickon and Bran have tangible things that keep them tied to their Stark identity in their direwolves, and Arya also has Needle. We have touched on whether Sandor, as Sansa's Lady replacement, could be what keeps Sansa tied to her Stark identity and I think the above is proof that he will. Sansa keeps thinking of him even when she is supposed to be Alayne, for ex.

Misc. [Agency] This can also be considered a practice of her agency. She directly rebels against the person who she has been told to love [or fuck in this case], and made her own choice. It is similar but different from when she chose Joffery against her father’s wishes. She was a child then who believed in the story. While not physically much older, events have made her grow up and mature. She rejects Tyrion not because of a girlish fantasy, but because she believes him to be another Lannister liar.

Let’s take a second to see what he’s asking. He wants her to ignore reality and live a fantasy. This is the exact opposite of Sandor. She is not only rejecting Tyrion, but his view (well, the one he wanted her to have). She replaces it with Sandor’s view and takes some comfort in it.

Exactly. There is a direct contrast between Tyrion and Sandor not only physically but in how they relate to Sansa. I think a big part of the disconnect between Sansa and Tyrion is that she does not accept his fantasy world. Also, Tyrion really went into the marriage as a way of trying to make his fantasy of wanting a pretty girl to love him and make a family together and live happily ever after as the Lord and Lady of Winterfell (leaving aside the argument of whether Tywin forced him into it or not I think Tyrion really did want to create the fantasy he always dreamed of and that's one reason why he agreed to the marriage). Obviously there is no way that was going to happen and Tyrion was shocked back into reality by Sansa's rejection of him, but it shows a reversal here in that Sansa is the one being realistic and refusing to accept the lies and Tyrion is the one trying to build a fantasy dream life.

Misc. [Lord Bronn Is Wrong] OK. It turns out my theory was wrong about Sansa referring to kissing The Hound as a fantasy. But that said, I think the false memory is her way of dealing with the situation and the fantasy. More the fantasy. Sansa has done little to consciously acknowledge her attraction to him. So, rather than fantasizing about him openly, she “remembers” when he kissed her.

As for why she doesn’t openly fantasize about him, there are many reasons. First, it is not proper for a lady to have such thoughts about a man who is not her husband. And regardless of feelings and her own desire to be wanted for herself and not her claim, Sandor is still so low the match is not possible. Lastly, he was a part of the Lannisters’ forces regardless of his choice to desert. He is a criminal (in actuality for desertation which isn’t likely to be thought well of who wins the throne and of all the crimes “The Hound” commits after Sandor shed the persona).

Sansa's time as a bastard actually solves a lot of these things for her. It's been repeatedly pointed out to her that being a a bastard girl, she has more... freedom when it comes to sex. And a bastard really isn't expected to hampered by any of the other social separators. A knight (though Sandor isn't, but he has land and isn't a lord), is higher than a bastard. Since Alayne is Littlefinger's daughter, she is expected to side with the Lannisters in public. And not in the obvious, "side with us or we will kill you." She is treated more as one of them. The criminal may be a reach, even for a bastard, but still not as bad as a high noble lady.

I do not expect Sansa to stay a bastard. But I do expect it to give her a new perspective.

EDIT: I noticed (but forgot to put in), while reality did seem to put Sandor first and then Tyrion, Sansa's own thoughts and desires put Tyrion first, and Sandor takes over.

Good point. It's interesting how quickly she replaces Sandor with Tyrion in that dream, and he becomes the "active" one, climbing into the bed. And he's identified by three distinct features: size, facial scars, and raspy voice.

Yup, there are still many social barriers preventing Sansa from having a Loras type fantasy about Sandor (oh the irony), but are we seeing them slowly falling away? When SR kisses her she notes that no Tyrell would ever kiss Alayne, and then moves on to remembering Sandor. What's funny is that she claims that day was done and so was Sansa. Isn't there some kind of implicit connection there in her mind between herself as Sansa, and the low born Sandor? I also think that the interest in Mya and Lothor is her attempt of a kind of psychic trial run for her own latent feelings.

]Again, this to me highlights that Sandor and the unkiss are Sansa's ties to her true identity that keep popping up even when she is "Alayne". Same with her thoughts on Mya and Lothor. Those are Sansa thoughts.

I also thought of the Les Miserables song "Castle on a Cloud." Could GRRM be a secret Les Miz fan?

Speaking of castles and ASOS, I was always struck by Sansa's thought when she doesn't want to disturb the "perfect beauty" of the snow-covered garden: "A pure world (...) I do not belong here." It sticks out to me, since I don't think that Sansa shows any other signs of viewing herself as corrupt/tainted/compromised/guilty/sinful/"impure." She sees herself as disillusioned ("Sansa pitied them, Sansa envied them" or however it's phrased with respect to Margaery's cousins), for sure, but that doesn't imply a lack of purity. Sansa implying that she doesn't think she belongs in a "pure" world suggests (at least to me) some sense that she believes that she isn't pure. It could just be her (acknowledged and obvious) loss of innocence, but to me, the passage makes it sound as if she thinks she has been somehow dirtied or tainted. I don't see evidence that she holds this belief anywhere else. When she's Alayne, she doesn't show any sides of pushing away her "Sansa" persona for that reason; she calls Sansa "that frightened girl," but that's it.

Wow. I loved reading that. .As to your 'life sometimes is a song remark', I completely agree.There is definitely a paradox present in ASOIAF, where GRRM hammers home the idea of life not being a song, and then contradicting himself in beautiful ways. It is not a song that Sansa would think to sing in AGOT, but the moments or actions that can inspire songs are there. One just needs to look for them with cleansed eyes and a clear perspective. I think the fact that Sansa has this insane ability to inspire knightly/chivalrous behaviour is testament to that.

I truly think there is some significance in her watching one castle in the sky turn to ruins, and building another one from snow. Snow and clouds even have an aesthetic similarity. It connects the scene for me in a tangible and powerful way, and marks Sansa's intellectual and emotional growth in the Winterfell castle scene.

Interesting discussion. Your mention of the word "sublime" reminds me of a class I took in college on the Romantic poets, Shelley, Coleridge and Keats and their quest for the "sublime". The Eyrie is actually a castle on a cloud if you think about it, but though it does not really give Sansa much comfort, she does build her own castle there, Winterfell, that does give her comfort and make her stronger.
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Interesting discussion. Your mention of the word "sublime" reminds me of a class I took in college on the Romantic poets, Shelley, Coleridge and Keats and their quest for the "sublime". The Eyrie is actually a castle on a cloud if you think about it, but though it does not really give Sansa much comfort, she does build her own castle there, Winterfell, that does give her comfort and make her stronger.

Yes, that's exactly what I was referencing there...the Romantic (with a capital 'R') idea of the Sublime. :)

And good catch on the Eyrie being a literal castle on a cloud! :)

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Interesting discussion. Your mention of the word "sublime" reminds me of a class I took in college on the Romantic poets, Shelley, Coleridge and Keats and their quest for the "sublime". The Eyrie is actually a castle on a cloud if you think about it, but though it does not really give Sansa much comfort, she does build her own castle there, Winterfell, that does give her comfort and make her stronger.

Yes, that's exactly what I was referencing there...the Romantic (with a capital 'R') idea of the Sublime. :)

And good catch on the Eyrie being a literal castle on a cloud! :)

Kubla Khan anyone? damn it there are so many Romantic elements to Sansa's arc. Granted, Sansa probably wasn't off her tits on opium, but it is an interesting comparison.

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Kubla Khan anyone? damn it there are so many Romantic elements to Sansa's arc. Granted, Sansa probably wasn't off her tits on opium, but it is an interesting comparison.

No, but she is quite drunk both when Joffrey attacks Arya and Mycah and at the night of the Battle of the Blackwater. It's also possible she is quite inebriated on the night where she hears the story of Sandor's burns.

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