From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XII

[Lyanna Stark]

ha oh my god I didn't even think of that!

I sometimes wonder if that may add a bit of a "dreamstate" to how she remembers some things.

You know how it can be when you remember something that happened while you were quite drunk: you can remember it, but the edges become all fuzzy and some of the details might be a bit slippery. It does add to the romantic (in the literary romantic) feel of Sansa's arc.

I think the drunkest she has ever been was at the night of the Blackwater battle, since Cersei kept plying her with wine. Which makes me wonder if that was not one of the components in the Unkiss: she thinks about Sandor kissing her at the time so I wonder if that combined with other factors helped transform it into the false memory she has.

(Cersei's AFFC and most ADWD chapters can be read the same way: Cersei is paranoid and often drunk, or at least inebriated, during her chapters, meaning she has the drunkards way of thinking and remembering, mixed with an unhealthy dose of paranoia. It makes her chapters an interesting exercise in trying to find out from the non POV characters what is really going on, since Cersei is often only partly in the reality she exists in.)

[bgona]

Oh we know the standard "textual" meanings, just playing around with alternatives :)

About the meaning of the prophecies about the castles, I remember Melisandre saying that the things that she sees at the fires sometimes have another physical appearence.

So this united to the castles is one more point to the crackpot of the Twin´s Fall.

About how each girl perceives the cloud´s castles, it is really interesting. Sansa always looks for the beauty in everything. Shae is seduced by the golden castle due to her money love (maybe this love came from the necessity that she had suffered younger). And finally Breda sees the reality. It is a good point to notice that Breda explains to Brienne how was Sansa and Tyrion marriage life. Breda will expose the reality.

About the colors: the rose can be related to the red, but it is mixed with the golden (yellow) so it is not a red and white tokken. It is more: it doesn´t mentioned the white. It begins with black, grey (starks) and ends up with golden and crimson (Lannister´s colors).

Sorry if I say something already exposed. I have been missing a lot.

[bgona]

What an excellent post! I'm glad that this scene struck someone else as emblematic of Sansa's story arc somehow. I briefly touched on this in a recent post on LJ here, exploring Sansa's story in relation to the Blackmore's Night song 'Castles and Dreams', but didn't go nearly as in-depth as your post! :)

I love that you bring up Caisleáin Óir (which happens to be another songI like, by Clannad), the story behind it is very fitting.

I also can't help but be reminded of Cosette from Les Miserables singing 'Castle on a Cloud', in which the castle on clouds are where she goes in her dreams to escape the harsh reality of life. Not saying Sansa is the same as Cosette, just that the connection between castles, clouds, dreams, and escaping reality bring Sansa to mind.

One thing that I touched on in the above-mentioned LJ post is that I found these two

castle scenes of Sansa to demonstrate her ability to see beauty where perhaps others would not, also, her appreciation for the Sublime if you will. I know that the twin cloud castles disappear (as the clouds move), but so does the snow-castle (broken by Sweetrobin, but it too would have melted eventually). These two scenes are incredibly memorable to me, but I have not yet settled on one, precise meaning for either of them. The snow castle/building of Winterfell scene is the one more remembered by readers, but both of these scenes echo the other in some ways. Both castles are fleeting, and do not last physically -- Sansa does not want to hear about broken castles (broken dreams?) in the first scene, but in the snow scene she acknowledges Winterfell as broken while at the same time symbolically rebuilding it. That scene seems to end 'badly' as well, but people have spoken of winter 'entering' Sansa here. If castles and dreams are connected....hmmm...there is something to be said for dreams....sometimes we must pay attention to them and not abandon them simply because they do not (or cannot) come true.

ETA: Somewhat ironic/amusing that this topic made me think about actual songs of all things. :)

Ohhh! I love that musical!!! It is the only one that I had go to see it twice.

[bgona]

It translates very well and I like where you are going with it.

I also agree with Sansa when it comes to her words. They are her sword and I like how she shows that in the long run, her words are a much stronger weapon.

I think that scene can be read more than one way. Your interpretation is one I've had in the past too. I like the way that lilenadheas as it makes me look at that passage in a new way and relates it very personally to Sansa and her storyline.

About the words: I was thinking about Varys and the riddle that he plots to Tyrion. Information is the power. You needs the information to know what motivates the sellsword. Normally the information works with words. What you say, what you do not say. And Sansa is good with words.

[Pod The Impaler]

No, but she is quite drunk both when Joffrey attacks Arya and Mycah and at the night of the Battle of the Blackwater. It's also possible she is quite inebriated on the night where she hears the story of Sandor's burns.

You know how it can be when you remember something that happened while you were quite drunk: you can remember it, but the edges become all fuzzy and some of the details might be a bit slippery. It does add to the romantic (in the literary romantic) feel of Sansa's arc.

I think the drunkest she has ever been was at the night of the Blackwater battle, since Cersei kept plying her with wine. Which makes me wonder if that was not one of the components in the Unkiss: she thinks about Sandor kissing her at the time so I wonder if that combined with other factors helped transform it into the false memory she has.

Actually, the fact that both Sansa and the Hound were both quite drunk leads me to one my crackpot theories:

The "UnKiss" actually did happen. They kissed, maybe more. They just remember it through a drunken fog, so it doesn't come out that way.

Remember what GRRM said about "unreliable narrators" ?

[bgona]

No, I don´t believe the Unkiss happen.

Readind Arya where Sandor is dying he doesn´t mention the kiss, even mentioning that he took the song by force. That it was the moment to say it. And he didn´t. He never did.

[lilenadheas]

I sometimes wonder if that may add a bit of a "dreamstate" to how she remembers some things.

You know how it can be when you remember something that happened while you were quite drunk: you can remember it, but the edges become all fuzzy and some of the details might be a bit slippery. It does add to the romantic (in the literary romantic) feel of Sansa's arc.

I think the drunkest she has ever been was at the night of the Blackwater battle, since Cersei kept plying her with wine. Which makes me wonder if that was not one of the components in the Unkiss: she thinks about Sandor kissing her at the time so I wonder if that combined with other factors helped transform it into the false memory she has.

(Cersei's AFFC and most ADWD chapters can be read the same way: Cersei is paranoid and often drunk, or at least inebriated, during her chapters, meaning she has the drunkards way of thinking and remembering, mixed with an unhealthy dose of paranoia. It makes her chapters an interesting exercise in trying to find out from the non POV characters what is really going on, since Cersei is often only partly in the reality she exists in.)

This is a really interesting angle to work, i've never seriously considered Sansa's inebriation as a factor in determining the motivations for her actions. Wasn't she drinking wine before the Joffrey/Lady incident? I never thought she drank much that day, but it could explain the first lapse in memory I guess.

I find the Unkiss thing hilarious because I'm usually trying to pretend a drunken kiss didn't happen, instead of the other way around. :blushing:

Actually, the fact that both Sansa and the Hound were both quite drunk leads me to one my crackpot theories:

The "UnKiss" actually did happen. They kissed, maybe more. They just remember it through a drunken fog, so it doesn't come out that way.

Remember what GRRM said about "unreliable narrators" ?

Interesting, but I doubt it. One of them would have remembered something more, I think. I find it a bit convenient for both to forget something happened.

[bgona]

I was rereading the opening chapter where the direwolves are found. Aside from being struck by warg like interaction between Bran and his pup and Jon's as well (he "hears" Ghost the mute wolf) I found myself wondering about the direwolf mother. Have you guys talked about this? Lady is the direwolf killed by a Baratheon and there are certainly "mother" themes surrounding Sansa. Then there's the pomegranate underworld/resurrection discussion from last thread. Any Sansa/direwolf mother comparisons been done?

I believe that Lady was not killed by a Baratheon. Lady was killed at command of Baratheon (requested by Lannister) but Ned was the hand that killed Lady.

Ned was killed as a command of a "Baratheon" (true Lannister) by the justice of the King.

Instead the mother of the direwolves was

[voodooqueen126]

I just thought I should share this, given that a case could be made that Petyr is either a narcissists or a psychopath:

http://samvak.tripod.com/journal68.html

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq76.html

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq78.html

http://policelink.monster.com/training/articles/37300-the-psychopath-as-an-interrogation-subject

I would say that I would rather Sansa learnt to exploit Petyr's weaknesses, than she remain a damsel in distress, victim, or escaped via a magical solution.

I would say her training: in extreme politeness as a child, self control when subject to Joffrey's abuse, ability to lie to Tyrion, her successful assumption of the Alayne persona. Could all indicate that Sansa might be better equipped than most women to manipulate someone like Petyr, I only fear her naivety would hamper her in this, causing her to empathise where no empathy is due.

[Ragnorak]

I believe that Lady was not killed by a Baratheon. Lady was killed at command of Baratheon (requested by Lannister) but Ned was the hand that killed Lady.

Ned was killed as a command of a "Baratheon" (true Lannister) by the justice of the King.

I'm not entirely sure if Joffrey or even Cersei are symbolically Baratheons or Lannisters-- at least while Robert lives. It is a Baratheon that calls Ned south. I understand your point but the line is blurry especially with the Baratheon claim placing actual Lannisters on the throne. In Tyrion's first chapter Cersei expresses her clear desire to remove the direwolves so I place the actual blame with her but she does so exercising Baratheon authority. I'm still not even sure exactly what the direwolf mother should symbolize (Ned?, House Stark? can't be Cat if Jon got a pup) so I'm not really trying to argue with your observation. I just thought that if Sansa is the one who eventually rebuilds Winterfell that would make her symbolically akin to the direwolf mother and wondered if there was more fertile ground to that beyond both the mother and Lady dying.

[Lyanna Stark]

Actually, the fact that both Sansa and the Hound were both quite drunk leads me to one my crackpot theories:

The "UnKiss" actually did happen. They kissed, maybe more. They just remember it through a drunken fog, so it doesn't come out that way.

Remember what GRRM said about "unreliable narrators" ?

This is true, but it could also be that Sansa remembers that he kissed her because she thought he would, and perhaps that was his intention as well. Who knows? He certainly doesn't seem to remember a kiss though, at least he doesn't mention it when he brags to Arya about how thankful Sansa was about him saving her from the riot and how she sang to him. Had she actually kissed him, I am fairly certain that would have been included in the bragging.

This is a really interesting angle to work, i've never seriously considered Sansa's inebriation as a factor in determining the motivations for her actions. Wasn't she drinking wine before the Joffrey/Lady incident? I never thought she drank much that day, but it could explain the first lapse in memory I guess.

I find the Unkiss thing hilarious because I'm usually trying to pretend a drunken kiss didn't happen, instead of the other way around. :blushing:

Yes, she was at least tipsy at the Joffrey/Nymeria incident, but at the Battle of the Blackwater she was probably quite inebriated due to Cersei's forcing her to drink a lot of wine. I'm not sure the drinking completely explains the lack of memory about the BWB and it probably does not explain her reluctance to speak out in a huge crowd in front of the Queen, Joffrey and the King about the Joffrey/Nymeria incident. (Of course, even if she had, we know from Jaime's AFFC chapters that Cersei was after blood, so Sansa's testimony was most likely moot anyway: Cersei had Robert under her boot heel and she had already commander the Hound to kill Mycah).

[Milady of York]

Thank you for a wonderful analysis, Lord Bronn.

Sex Again, as stated in foreshadowing, Sansa first thinks about Tyrion and replaces him with Sandor. We see Sansa, at least subconsciously, acknowledging the sexual significance of the song.

(....)

I find it interesting that in that dream Sandor is recognisable through his three most striking physical features, and although it could be just how Martin chose to identify him without naming him, another way of looking at it would be that these three characteristics are the way Sansa's subconscious acknowledges the qualities she admires via symbolisms:

Size = Protection. ("... Someone strong").

Facial scars = Emotional bonding (it's related to the No True Knight scene, when they began to look differently to each other, and to the times he was good with her, so perhaps this would fill the "... someone gentle" part. Secondarily, it implies acceptance).

Raspy voice = Ferocity. From an evolutionary perspective, men with deep voices are Believed to be better fighters and providers, as she does by admitting to liking this part of his personality ("... someone brave").

[Milady of York]

This is true, but it could also be that Sansa remembers that he kissed her because she thought he would, and perhaps that was his intention as well. Who knows? He certainly doesn't seem to remember a kiss though, at least he doesn't mention it when he brags to Arya about how thankful Sansa was about him saving her from the riot and how she sang to him. Had she actually kissed him, I am fairly certain that would have been included in the bragging.

Yes, she was at least tipsy at the Joffrey/Nymeria incident, but at the Battle of the Blackwater she was probably quite inebriated due to Cersei's forcing her to drink a lot of wine. I'm not sure the drinking completely explains the lack of memory about the BWB and it probably does not explain her reluctance to speak out in a huge crowd in front of the Queen, Joffrey and the King about the Joffrey/Nymeria incident. (Of course, even if she had, we know from Jaime's AFFC chapters that Cersei was after blood, so Sansa's testimony was most likely moot anyway: Cersei had Robert under her boot heel and she had already commander the Hound to kill Mycah).

In my practice, I learnt that alcohol is an inhibitor, and it affects the hippocampus, which is the brain area in charge of memory formation and retrieval. As for how it affects this area, it usually provokes memory blackouts and lapses, they usually are of 2 types: total and partial. In the first case, a person cannot retrieve any memories, and in the second case, memories are fragmentary and hazy. However, our subconscious can store information about our surroundings and what’s happening while under the influence, and that may either come later on its own in rare cases, or undergoing treatment by a professional. In the case of an inebriated person, short-term and process memory aren’t affected, meaning he/she can still maintain a conversation and more or less act normally if slighty strange depending on how much he/she has drunk. But long-term memory and the ability to recall things from before and later are affected. In a big way.

Applying this to Sansa’s case: if she was questioned immediately by Ned, she obviously told the truth for her memory of the incident was still fresh and she had no reason to fear from her father. But days passed, and if you add stress and fear (both emotions interfere with the ability to encode and retrieve information because a stress hormone called cortisol is released in high amounts and it affects the hippocampus) to what I’ve explained about long-term memory, then you have a plausible clinical explanation for her “I don’t remember,” aside from not wanting to take sides among other things you girls have been discussing from Rereading I onwards.

The BBW scene might have a similar explanation, but I haven’t examined that case closely yet. :)

[brashcandy]

I'm back! :)

Interesting discussion on Sansa and alcohol. I think it's fair to say that Martin establishes it as a bit of a pattern with Sansa, preceding important events in her life, particularly to do with Sandor. So what is Martin's underlying purpose here? To build support for Sansa as an unreliable narrator, or something more? We know Sansa is generally quite empathetic, but in the two parallel scenes with Sandor - the tourney feast and the BBB - there's an excess of feeling that comes permeates those interactions. Is it meant to symbolise both of them having lowered defenses, allowing for "creative" bonding to take place?

[bgona]

This is a really interesting angle to work, i've never seriously considered Sansa's inebriation as a factor in determining the motivations for her actions. Wasn't she drinking wine before the Joffrey/Lady incident? I never thought she drank much that day, but it could explain the first lapse in memory I guess.

I find the Unkiss thing hilarious because I'm usually trying to pretend a drunken kiss didn't happen, instead of the other way around. :blushing:

Interesting, but I doubt it. One of them would have remembered something more, I think. I find it a bit convenient for both to forget something happened.

Yes, she drunk more wine than ever at her life (or something similar).

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Sansa drunk in agot more enough to the point of being dizzy and lightheaded. Sansa was without tipsy if not perhaps lightly drunk since she was 11

[bgona]

I really believe that drinking is important with these two characters that normally are so closed. Anyway sometimes they are not drunk (one, normally Sansa, sometimes both are sobers).

I agree with all the inhibitor factor, but I didn´t realise the long term factor for Sansa. It opens a lot of ideas.

Anyway I believe that the memory is brought by feelings deeper, and after changed by Sansa mind.

[bgona]

Ragnorak:

I always thought that the Wolf mother symbolized Ned (he is the only true Stark of the marriage, Cat is Tully). But I like to think about news ideas (even when at begining I say no! they stay at my mind for a time).

The mother was kill by a stag. This can have a parallelism with Ned.

I´m sorry if sometimes I expose my ideas rudely. That is not my intention.

[Pod The Impaler]

This is true, but it could also be that Sansa remembers that he kissed her because she thought he would, and perhaps that was his intention as well. Who knows? He certainly doesn't seem to remember a kiss though, at least he doesn't mention it when he brags to Arya about how thankful Sansa was about him saving her from the riot and how she sang to him. Had she actually kissed him, I am fairly certain that would have been included in the bragging.

Well, I did say this was a crackpot theory. It's possible their memories are muddled up in some synchronized way, but very very unlikely.

[lilenadheas]

Well, I did say this was a crackpot theory. It's possible their memories are muddled up in some synchronized way, but very very unlikely.

Is the wish father to the thought? ;)