From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XII

[Valkyrja]

Well, I did say this was a crackpot theory. It's possible their memories are muddled up in some synchronized way, but very very unlikely.

I suppose one way of making the theory work would be to say that Sansa remembers the kiss but Sandor (being even more drunk) doesn't.....

Not saying that makes perfect sense, but hey, as you say....its crackpot. XD

[Lummel]

This is true, but it could also be that Sansa remembers that he kissed her because she thought he would, and perhaps that was his intention as well. Who knows? He certainly doesn't seem to remember a kiss though, at least he doesn't mention it when he brags to Arya about how thankful Sansa was about him saving her from the riot and how she sang to him. Had she actually kissed him, I am fairly certain that would have been included in the bragging...

I suppose there is an outside chance that he wouldn't mention it because a kiss is fairly tender and not in keeping with his macho self image.

Altough I'm more inclined to think that the unkiss is a product of Sansa's reconstruction of events in her memory.

[Lyanna Stark]

I suppose there is an outside chance that he wouldn't mention it because a kiss is fairly tender and not in keeping with his macho self image.

Altough I'm more inclined to think that the unkiss is a product of Sansa's reconstruction of events in her memory.

I agree, but it is an interesting observation that he perhaps would omit it due to his self image of badassery, and badass warriors don't kiss girls. (This would strangely coincide with a lot of the fandom's views on this topic, too. ;) )

There's also the fact that when he bragged to Arya, it was about how Sansa was thankful and sang *to him*, but had he kissed her, that would be him actually doing it and not just her being ever so grateful and admiring, but at the same time a bit distant and non-threatening. Admitting to a kiss would also be admitting to a depth of feeling he may not feel comfortable navigating.

[Valkyrja]

I agree, but it is an interesting observation that he perhaps would omit it due to his self image of badassery, and badass warriors don't kiss girls. (This would strangely coincide with a lot of the fandom's views on this topic, too. ;) )

There's also the fact that when he bragged to Arya, it was about how Sansa was thankful and sang *to him*, but had he kissed her, that would be him actually doing it and not just her being ever so grateful and admiring, but at the same time a bit distant and non-threatening. Admitting to a kiss would also be admitting to a depth of feeling he may not feel comfortable navigating.

Yeah, exactly. Its the same sort of thing that makes him have his outburst later on (the infamous "I should have fucked her bloody")....the *doing* aspect on his part is only something he could admit when near death, and even then only using very violent language.

Even if he really did *not* kiss her (and I don't actually think he did), I think this still applies as I am convinced he may have been *about* to her kiss her. Sansa certainly thought he was going to, hence the fateful closing of her eyes. Sansa is very intuitive throughout the entire night of the Blackwater as we've explored before, so I actually don't think her instinct was all that wrong here.

[bgona]

But Sandor indeed recognized to Arya that he "stole" the song, so he has the same memories than the Sansa POV at Blackwater. This two united carry me to the Unkiss, even wanting that the kiss happened.

And I do believe, yes as it is exposed that he would had say it to Arya.

[Winter's Knight]

I just noticed but how did y'all go from XXI to XII?

[Valkyrja]

But Sandor indeed recognized to Arya that he "stole" the song, so he has the same memories than the Sansa POV at Blackwater. This two united carry me to the Unkiss, even wanting that the kiss happened.

And I do believe, yes as it is exposed that he would had say it to Arya.

He only admitted to *taking* the song towards the end of his time with Arya, when he was 'dying'.....before that he tried to keep up the pretense so he could brag to Arya about Sansa 'rewarding' him with a song.

[bgona]

Yes, that was my point: I was thinking at that moment, not about the "brag" moment before.

;-)

[Valkyrja]

Yes, that was my point: I was thinking at that moment, not about the "brag" moment before.

;-)

No worries, I was agreeing with you. :)

[bgona]

B-)

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

This is interesting, that Sandor's memories of the UnKiss might be as unreliable as Sansa's. I wonder, if he does remember kissing her (whether or not he did) will that be some kind of sustenance for him on the QI (perhaps preventing him from taking vows! :D )? Sansa's UnKiss memories and dreams seem to float up in regards to kissing ands sex quite a bit. Sandor has not been a POV character so far and probably never will, so we won't get the same peek inside his mind, but we may hear him confessing to UnKiss memories at some point.

But rather than a bad-ass warrior not wanting to admit to kissing a girl, I wonder if Sandor had kissed Sansa, would he tell Arya just to needle her? (sorry, could not resist!) And get a rise out of her in an "eww, gross, Sansa kissed YOU?" kind of way?

Regarding Sansa being drunk: It seems that Ned only allowed his kids wine on special occasions and then only one glass. He's there to enforce the rule at the high table during the royal visit, but Jon, left below the salt, gets good and hammered (and his uncle eggs him on and talks up the Night's Watch. Hm.). I don't think Sansa is used to drinking that much, and I don't see her making a habit of it, but it probably played a role in her "not remembering" in front of Cersei. And also factor in that she was a frightened and confused eleven-year-old hauled up in front of hostile adults and she had to have froze up. Which is one reason why I can't really see blaming Sansa in this situation - how many sheltered, naive children could comport themselves effortlessly under such pressure? And, as has been pointed out here and elsewhere, Cersei and/or Joffrey would have found a way to kill Lady once they got to KL in any case; Lady could have survived only if Sansa shooed her away like Arya did Nymeria, or left her with Bran and Rickon at Winterfell.

Cersei seems to be hitting the sauce hard in AFFC and I am sure that contributed to her paranoia and bad decisions. There's also the fact that her family is imploding (son poisoned by her brother or so she thinks, father killed by that same brother, her twin gone away, her daughter is in Dorne so only one child left to her) and what she sees as her only power (being able to control her son) slipping away. Cersei has not built herself a true power base of people who actually like her and want to help her.

Petyr is another "evil mentor" type who turns up drunk at the end of AFFC. When he's telling Sansa about his grand plans to marry her to Harry the Heir and help her win back the North (and again, I call BS) Sansa notices liquor on his breath instead of the usual mint. He's up late - VERY late, as it's past everyone else's bedtime and Sansa is exhausted - and he's drunk. Petyr is another one who has built up his power base on something other than genuine love or liking and respect - he lies, he manipulates, he blackmails, and he buys people off. I wonder if Petyr's drunkenness at the end of AFFC marks the beginning of his downward trajectory (and Sansa's rise)?

Sansa seems to be learning to build up power based upon getting people to like her and want to help her. Sandor and Tyrion both helped her in KL because they wanted to not because Sansa sexed them up or blackmailed them or harangued them. Whatever Randa's motivations of befriending "Alayne," it is not out of fear; even if there is an ulterior motive (she wants to marry LF or something else) she seems to really like Alayne. (It is true that Sansa being beautiful helps a lot. However, beauty alone won't hold the support if you are not likable as Cersei is finding out.)

We saw how fast Cersei's band of lickspittles and opportunists vanished when she was imprisoned. I'm betting a lot of LF's allies will vanish into thin air when he starts to fall (and he will). Sansa, on the other hand, if she can win people's hearts, will have people loyal to her. Why else are a bunch of Northmen freezing their butts off to rescue a young girl from a horror house? Because she is Ned Stark's little girl (or so they think). No-one is going to starve or freeze for Cersei or LF, but they just might for Sansa.

[Lady Lea]

Hey everyone - just popping in to say that corseque is live-blogging about La Belle and La Bête (the 1946 film) and everything is Sansan and nothing hurts.

[Valkyrja]

Hey everyone - just popping in to say that corseque is live-blogging about La Belle and La Bête (the 1946 film) and everything is Sansan and nothing hurts.

YES! I just joined her in the live-blogging (well commenting on her blogging).....its going hand-in-hand with my re-watch and analysis (still in progress) of the Beauty and the Beast tv series episodes written by GRRM. :D

[Lady Lea]

YES! I just joined her in the live-blogging (well commenting on her blogging).....its going hand-in-hand with my re-watch and analysis (still in progress) of the Beauty and the Beast tv series episodes written by GRRM. :D

I saw youuu! Gosh I need to watch that film AND the series. I need free time!!! :(

[Newstar]

Cersei seems to be hitting the sauce hard in AFFC and I am sure that contributed to her paranoia and bad decisions. (...)

Petyr is another "evil mentor" type who turns up drunk at the end of AFFC. When he's telling Sansa about his grand plans to marry her to Harry the Heir and help her win back the North (and again, I call BS) Sansa notices liquor on his breath instead of the usual mint. He's up late - VERY late, as it's past everyone else's bedtime and Sansa is exhausted - and he's drunk. Petyr is another one who has built up his power base on something other than genuine love or liking and respect - he lies, he manipulates, he blackmails, and he buys people off. I wonder if Petyr's drunkenness at the end of AFFC marks the beginning of his downward trajectory (and Sansa's rise)?

Speaking of characters on a downward trajectory, at least in ASOS/ADWD, Tyrion goes from "drinking a lot" to "pretty much drunk all the time" in ASOS. If he'd laid off the booze long enough, he might have had the presence of mind to avoid his fate. As it was, he was mouthing off to Joffrey (such that Joffrey realized that Tyrion had stumbled on the truth about the assassination attempt), and he realized too late at the Purple Wedding that he should get out of dodge. Also, his worst periods of drinking also coincide with his lowest point in ADWD (no surprise there).

It's a good observation about Littlefinger. The booze certainly causes him to betray more lust for Sansa than otherwise (he kisses her for a "long time"), but it also leads him to reveal his grand plan. While we're talking about booze and a downward trajectory, everything is going well for Littlefinger in AFFC. The Alayne charade is working, he's slowly unraveling the Lords Declarant's alliance against him, and he's made the marriage contract for Sansa he thinks will propel him to glory. You know what he reminds me of? The Lannisters, all smug and preening after the Red Wedding, in their "high summer." Maybe the booze and his bragging to Sansa about his great plan is the first hint of the beginning of the end for Littlefinger.

Whatever Randa's motivations of befriending "Alayne," it is not out of fear; even if there is an ulterior motive (she wants to marry LF or something else) she seems to really like Alayne. (It is true that Sansa being beautiful helps a lot. However, beauty alone won't hold the support if you are not likable as Cersei is finding out.)

She seems less like a Margaery Tyrell type (charm offensive, syrupy sweetness) and more like an Olenna Tyrell type to me: shrewd and dangerous. When I saw that line "Despite herself, Alayne found herself warming to the girl," I was all "No, Sansa, no! We've been through this!" Margaery and Olenna might have liked Sansa well enough as well, but they still screwed her over when push came to shove.

We saw how fast Cersei's band of lickspittles and opportunists vanished when she was imprisoned. I'm betting a lot of LF's allies will vanish into thin air when he starts to fall (and he will). Sansa, on the other hand, if she can win people's hearts, will have people loyal to her. Why else are a bunch of Northmen freezing their butts off to rescue a young girl from a horror house? Because she is Ned Stark's little girl (or so they think). No-one is going to starve or freeze for Cersei or LF, but they just might for Sansa.

First of all, "lickspittle" is one of my favourite words, ever. Second of all, I don't see Northerners going to the wall (not the Wall, hee) for Sansa the way they might for Arya. Even if they believe she killed Joffrey (which would probably only earn their undying admiration and respect), there's the whole "Lady Lannister" thing. Granted, that's Stannis calling her Lady Lannister, but still: the way Cat and Robb reacted after Sansa's marriage kind of felt like they were writing her off. I wonder if the other Northerners might feel the same.

[brashcandy]

YES! I just joined her in the live-blogging (well commenting on her blogging).....its going hand-in-hand with my re-watch and analysis (still in progress) of the Beauty and the Beast tv series episodes written by GRRM. :D

Oh, I'm going to watch them too! :) I'll PM you.

[Newstar]

(It is true that Sansa being beautiful helps a lot. However, beauty alone won't hold the support if you are not likable as Cersei is finding out.)

We saw how fast Cersei's band of lickspittles and opportunists vanished when she was imprisoned. I'm betting a lot of LF's allies will vanish into thin air when he starts to fall (and he will). Sansa, on the other hand, if she can win people's hearts, will have people loyal to her.

Sansa's problem is that she has no gift at all for making friends (and I mean real friends, as in people who like her and don't just want to screw her, in any sense). Her one friend is, who, Jeyne Poole? People (who aren't attracted to her sexually) don't seek out her friendship freely or connect with her easily, and this seems to have been true even before everything went to hell in AGOT. Granted, she hasn't exactly been in many environments conducive to true friendship, but Arya seems to rack up friends wherever she goes, almost in spite of herself (despite her trust issues, safety risks, etc.); not so with Sansa. Mya Stone doesn't dislike her, but they certainly aren't BFF. She might have a shot at friendship with Lothor Brune, who seems like he has no sexual interest in her (although his loyalty to Littlefinger is a big problem). Littlefinger's tutelage seems to be making her less likely to form authentic friendships, since he's teaching her to lie to people, to trust no one but him, to hold herself apart even more. He's teaching her how to fake friendship; he's teaching her not to connect authentically with people, and to view them as pawns or as threats rather than as people. It's not as if Littlefinger is a great heartwinner himself, and he's trying to transform Sansa into a female version of himself, or, as an ASOIAF character would no doubt put it, "Littlefinger with teats." As time goes on, Sansa's becoming more guarded, not less, and guarded people have a hard time forming real friendships. I suppose Sansa showed hints of her ability to charm when she was making the rounds with Tyrion at the Purple Wedding, but she doesn't strike me as a person who wins hearts easily; she seems to step wrong as often as she steps right. There's also a difference between charming people at a feast and inspiring true loyalty and devotion to the point where people will put their lives on the line for you.

This isn't to say that she doesn't get a reaction out of anyone. Her superpower seems to be inspiring possessiveness or even obsession, usually obsessive lust. Her arc is a parade of men who want to sleep with her (Joffrey, the Hound, Tyrion, Marillion, Littlefinger, Theon, random dudes, etc.) and women who want a piece of her (Cersei, Olenna, Randa); I keep thinking of the word "covet," because people seem to covet Sansa like they would any other shiny, pretty object. While this ability has saved her a few times, it's created more problems for her than it's solved. For every save from a third party, there's a creepy or unwanted advance to be fended off. It's just that the sort of sentiments she inspires--in men, but in women, too (Cersei was really possessive of Sansa and felt extremely betrayed by Sansa's actions)--are not really about loyalty or devotion or any kind of higher sentiment; they're dark and even dangerous, both to Sansa and others. How many people have died or will die because Littlefinger wants Sansa?

[Caro99]

I'm going to watch that movie as well and thanks Lady Lea for that link!! :) it will be intresting and more enjoyable to watch it for the 1st time with a full insight of SanSan info!! *excited*

About the two resent discussions:

a) Did the UnKiss happened or nor: I don't think it did, but it's always intresting to imagine what would sandor have done when he was with arya about that. would he have told her proudly that the little bird kissed him, or would he have kept that intimate moment they shared to himself?? i'll still like him with whatever way he chose to act

B) Intresting that the players who in AGoT i thought would never miss a step in the game (cersei and petyr) when i first was introdcued to ASOIAF are both currently having at some degree troubles with drinking and that they have had some important connection to Sansa. I wonder though, since one must always tread carefully where LF is concerned, if- even if he had had more to drink than usual at the end of Feast- he really did reveal his final plan to Sansa with the mary HtH, reclaim Winterfell? i want to believe he is loosing his touch and made once more a mistake due to his desire for sansa (the first one being when he first kissed her where anyone and everyone could see), but i fear that even though sansa could smell the wine in his breath, he was still cunningly "presenting" her with the idea of re-claiming winterfell and giving her the vale, as he had in mind whatever his ultimate goal is, which i guess is stay alive till the end with Cat version 2 and have as much power as he can

[Lyanna Stark]

Hey everyone - just popping in to say that corseque is live-blogging about La Belle and La Bête (the 1946 film) and everything is Sansan and nothing hurts.

Well, oh my. I'd only ever seen the remakes of it, but that's....well, lets put it as "a clear influence" and we won't be lying. :cool4:

[Elba the Intoner]

Sansa's problem is that she has no gift at all for making friends (and I mean real friends, as in people who like her and don't just want to screw her, in any sense). Her one friend is, who, Jeyne Poole? People (who aren't attracted to her sexually) don't seek out her friendship freely or connect with her easily, and this seems to have been true even before everything went to hell in AGOT. Granted, she hasn't exactly been in many environments conducive to true friendship, but Arya seems to rack up friends wherever she goes, almost in spite of herself (despite her trust issues, safety risks, etc.); not so with Sansa. Mya Stone doesn't dislike her, but they certainly aren't BFF. She might have a shot at friendship with Lothor Brune, who seems like he has no sexual interest in her (although his loyalty to Littlefinger is a big problem).

I don't know about this. As I mentioned in my Dontos post, I do think Dontos turned out to be a friend to Sansa and now it seems that little Robert really likes her. Granted they are not the kind of friends that she can be carefree with and laugh and gossip with like she had with Jeyne, but it's something. Also, since the beginning of the books Sansa has really been in no position to make friends. Cersei had her maids changed every few weeks, no one at court would have anything to do with her once Ned was captured, later Margaery and her cousins seem like they will be good friends to her but then drop her like a hot potato once she is forced to marry Tyrion, and once she gets to the Eyrie, there is no one there but a few household workers and guards. It was very isolated. Now she is finally down in the Vale and being surrounded by a lot of people who could potentially become friends, but she only just got there. So, I think it's too soon to say that she has no gift for making friends. We have to see how things will play out in the next book.