From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XII

[Newstar]

I wouldn't include the Hound in the parade of men who want to sleep with her either: I think that relationship was a lot more complicated, and characterised by a mutual give and take, that redefined both of their world views and consequently impacted them on an intimate level.

And yet he fits in with my pattern. Good: saves her life a few times. Bad: manhandles her, assaults her, holds her at knifepoint, etc. The Hound's lust for Sansa is not a pure, spiritual thing: it leads him to assault Sansa and coerce her into singing for him, an action he later regrets deeply, and pushes him ever closer to his total mental and physical collapse in ASOS. So I think characterizing his feelings for her as "dark and dangerous" is a good fit, as they prove dangerous to her and to him. And the Hound's sexual interest in Sansa is a big part of their interactions (which is why the big hue and cry went up when all the Hound/Sansa sexual overtones were completely bleached out in the TV adaptation), so talking about the Hound's lust for Sansa and lumping him in with all the other guys who lust after her is not inappropriate.

I don't think that's a true characterization based on what we've seen so far. Although "friendship" doesn't quite represent the relationship she had with Sandor, it did include a lot of the elements found in traditional friendships, and by the end of ACOK, Sansa had arguably won over his loyalty and love.

But by the end of ACOK, their relationship was effectively over, and she never had his loyalty (even cutting his way through the mob was not incompatible with his loyalty to the Crown): he only made his pitch to take her away with him once nothing remained for him in King's Landing. He was always loyal to Joffrey, until the choice was taken away from him by his own cowardice. Also, because so much of the Hound's interest and feelings towards Sansa were tied to his obsessive desire for her--as Sansa was beautiful and weak, unlike the ugly and weak Lollys, whom he found contemptible--that it's hard to untangle the genuine friendship, if any. As I said, Sansa needs some true friends, i.e. people who have some warmhearted feelings that aren't informed/warped by sexual interest/obsession, and the Hound is not one of them.

While Dontos was indeed working for Littlefinger, he did genuinely desire to help her and was sympathetic to her plight with the Lannisters.

So she never had his loyalty, and he screwed her over. I put his show of sympathy/helpfulness on the same level as Margaery's: a display in the service of another goal. Not really seeing the loyalty and devotion, there.

In the previous thread project we did on female influences, Dr. Pepper highlighted how Lollys might have been expressing a kind of understanding and sorrow for Sansa during her wedding to Tyrion.

Oh, yeah, Sansa inspired pity in several people, but Sansa could never seem to make that translate to friendship, loyalty, or devotion.

To the contrary, I would say Sansa does have the ability to make friends based on those empathetic qualities she's displayed throughout the series

She has shown moments of empathy, but she's shown herself completely unable to parlay that into real friendship. The Tyrells drop her like a bad habit after her wedding to Tyrion. Her fairweather "friends" play the part of kindhearted confidants but sell her out without losing any sleep over it (Dontos, Margaery). The Hound lets his desire for her get the better of him and assaults her. Mya's not hostile, but lukewarm. Her friendship on the show with Shae is a huge departure from the books because Sansa could never manage in the books to get someone who didn't want to have sex with her to help her out.

Bottom line: I'd probably want to be Sansa's friend with no ulterior motive or hidden agenda, but no one in the books who doesn't want to have sex with her seems to except maybe Jeyne Poole. Arya had a talent for making friends and connections with all sorts of people in AGOT, and she didn't have Sansa's beauty to charm anyone with. True, she didn't share Sansa's notions of propriety (or snobbery, as some might put it) at the time, which prevented Sansa from doing the same, but even if Sansa hadn't had such internal barriers to acting as Arya did, would she have had Arya's success at making connections with people? Based on what we've seen in the books, and even in AFFC, I tend to doubt it. That's why it baffles me when people anticipate Sansa to become this charismatic, devotion-inspiring type. If she can't get one single person who doesn't want to have sex with her to go out on a limb for her now, how on Earth is she going to manage to get a bunch of Northerners to lay down their lives for her? Whatever success she'd have, she'd have with the skillset Littlefinger is giving her--manipulation, blackmail, bribery, charm, deceit--but while those are effective methods in the South, that sort of behaviour wouldn't do in the North at all; they'd either scoff at her, or smile and nod and later cut her legs out from under her.

[brashcandy]

And yet he fits in with my pattern. Good: saves her life a few times. Bad: manhandles her, assaults her, holds her at knifepoint, etc. The Hound's lust for Sansa is not a pure, spiritual thing: it leads him to assault Sansa and coerce her into singing for him, an action he later regrets deeply, and pushes him ever closer to his total mental and physical collapse in ASOS. So I think characterizing his feelings for her as "dark and dangerous" is a good fit, as they prove dangerous to her and to him. And the Hound's sexual interest in Sansa is a big part of their interactions (which is why the big hue and cry went up when all the Hound/Sansa sexual overtones were completely bleached out in the TV adaptation), so talking about the Hound's lust for Sansa and lumping him in with all the other guys who lust after her is not inappropriate.

The big hue and cry was about the butchering of the scenes; however one interprets the nature of those scenes is another thing, but the development of their relationship was an important part of ACOK and is extended in later books. And yes, Sandor does display sexual interest in Sansa, but he's also not expecting to ever have that interest fulfilled, neither is he willing to manipulate and force her into reciprocating his desires. That's what separates him from those other men around her, and it's why he can't be lumped into the parade of those other men. The sexual undercurrent in their interactions remains for the most part just that, an undercurrent. What we predominantly see in AGOT/ACOK is him going out of his way to offer her advice, protect her from harm, and shield her with his life if necessary.

But by the end of ACOK, their relationship was effectively over, and she never had his loyalty (even cutting his way through the mob was not incompatible with his loyalty to the Crown): he only made his pitch to take her away with him once nothing remained for him in King's Landing. He was always loyal to Joffrey, until the choice was taken away from him by his own cowardice. Also, because so much of the Hound's interest and feelings towards Sansa were tied to his obsessive desire for her--as Sansa was beautiful and weak, unlike the ugly and weak Lollys, whom he found contemptible--that it's hard to untangle the genuine friendship, if any. As I said, Sansa needs some true friends, i.e. people who have some warmhearted feelings that aren't informed/warped by sexual interest/obsession, and the Hound is not one of them.

I would think that actively lying for her to Joffrey, saying "enough" when she's beaten in court, and offering to take her away and kill anyone who wants to harm her - in effect, the Lannisters - proves that Sansa had won Sandor's loyalty. Even Sansa knows it's not cowardice that drove the Hound away from the battle. We as readers got plenty signs that Sandor was gradually becoming disillusioned with Lannister service long before that night, and in the midst of his own crisis. And your definition of friendship is all well and good for peaceful times when one can afford to be discerning and selective, but given Sansa's straits throughout the first few books, I think Sandor's actions and his presence were invaluable to her, and in ASOS when she has to go meet with Margaery, she wishes he was there with her. Sounds like she was missing a friend, no matter how inappropriate you consider him to be.

Oh, yeah, Sansa inspired pity in several people, but Sansa could never seem to make that translate to friendship, loyalty, or devotion.

Which part of my post or Lord Bronn's post got lost in translation? Besides what we see with Sandor, a man who is known as the faithful Lannister dog, and is Joffrey's own sworn shield, how exactly would Sansa have gone about inspiring this intense loyalty and devotion? Who would be willing to put their life on the line for her?

She has shown moments of empathy, but she's shown herself completely unable to parlay that into real friendship. The Tyrells drop her like a bad habit after her wedding to Tyrion. Her fairweather "friends" play the part of kindhearted confidants but sell her out without losing any sleep over it (Dontos, Margaery). The Hound lets his desire for her get the better of him and assaults her. Mya's not hostile, but lukewarm. Her friendship on the show with Shae is a huge departure from the books because Sansa could never manage in the books to get someone who didn't want to have sex with her to help her out.

Again, I don't think you understand how friendship works - it's a two way street. What Sansa has shown via her kindness and compassion is that she would make a great friend to someone, but saying that she can't make someone be a real friend to her is inane considering that we know these people had hidden motives. No one can pull friends out of thin air, and definitely not in a hostile environment like KL where nearly everyone is looking out for themselves. This is why her relationship with Sandor is so extraordinary, and her saving of Dontos - an outstanding action, inspired him to want to help her too.

Bottom line: I'd probably want to be Sansa's friend, but no one in the books who doesn't want to have sex with her seems to except maybe Jeyne Poole.

Your overwhelmingly negative perception of anything relating to Sansa has already been duly noted; fortunately, I have more faith in Martin's vision.

[Caro99]

I just finished hearing th epodcast of episode 88 for Ice & FIre, and there were some things thay they discussed about LF which i thought might be relevant for sansa's future storyline. First, Elio says that ever since Clash LF has been trying to bring tyrion down, which i think it's inresting since both guys have had an important role to play in sansa's life... then he said that what LF really wants is to be really rich- even more than being powerful by having all these titles- because once things get really really bad for Westeros, he will have all this savings to help him survive, and then he said that he thinks LF wants to appear like a saviour to the 7 kingdoms who, when everything is really bad, presents Sansa and Harry as the answered prayers to the whole world, and crown them as king and queen.

oh and he said that Hodor may be related to Sandor and Gregor because they end up with an or.. never thought about that :o

yeah, sorry for those random obsevrations :P

Oh and now that i've watched that beautiful French version of Beauty & the Beast, i was strucked with how similar belle was to sansa. In particular this: Belle is at first frightened of the Beast, just like Sansa was of Sandor, and yet, even after both pairs have interacted, and Belle has seen that the beast is a good man deep down, she still stands her ground and doesn't accept the beast's proposal because it isn't what she wants at the moment, and tells him some things i am sure no one would ever dare tell the beast to their face, which reminded me of the rooftop scene where Sandor still tries make sansa see that the world is a bad place and sansa calls him horrid, letting her guard down, and ends up convincing him more to believe in her belives than he ever did with her... :)

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

1. And yet he fits in with my pattern. Good: saves her life a few times. Bad: manhandles her, assaults her, holds her at knifepoint, etc. The Hound's lust for Sansa is not a pure, spiritual thing: it leads him to assault Sansa and coerce her into singing for him, an action he later regrets deeply, and pushes him ever closer to his total mental and physical collapse in ASOS. So I think characterizing his feelings for her as "dark and dangerous" is a good fit, as they prove dangerous to her and to him. And the Hound's sexual interest in Sansa is a big part of their interactions (which is why the big hue and cry went up when all the Hound/Sansa sexual overtones were completely bleached out in the TV adaptation), so talking about the Hound's lust for Sansa and lumping him in with all the other guys who lust after her is not inappropriate.

2. But by the end of ACOK, their relationship was effectively over, and she never had his loyalty (even cutting his way through the mob was not incompatible with his loyalty to the Crown): he only made his pitch to take her away with him once nothing remained for him in King's Landing. He was always loyal to Joffrey, until the choice was taken away from him by his own cowardice. Also, because so much of the Hound's interest and feelings towards Sansa were tied to his obsessive desire for her--as Sansa was beautiful and weak, unlike the ugly and weak Lollys, whom he found contemptible--that it's hard to untangle the genuine friendship, if any. As I said, Sansa needs some true friends, i.e. people who have some warmhearted feelings that aren't informed/warped by sexual interest/obsession, and the Hound is not one of them.

3. She has shown moments of empathy, but she's shown herself completely unable to parlay that into real friendship. The Tyrells drop her like a bad habit after her wedding to Tyrion. Her fairweather "friends" play the part of kindhearted confidants but sell her out without losing any sleep over it (Dontos, Margaery). The Hound lets his desire for her get the better of him and assaults her. Mya's not hostile, but lukewarm. Her friendship on the show with Shae is a huge departure from the books because Sansa could never manage in the books to get someone who didn't want to have sex with her to help her out.

Bottom line: I'd probably want to be Sansa's friend with no ulterior motive or hidden agenda, but no one in the books who doesn't want to have sex with her seems to except maybe Jeyne Poole. 5. Arya had a talent for making friends and connections with all sorts of people in AGOT, and she didn't have Sansa's beauty to charm anyone with. True, she didn't share Sansa's notions of propriety (or 6. snobbery, as some might put it) at the time, which prevented Sansa from doing the same, but even if Sansa hadn't had such internal barriers to acting as Arya did, would she have had Arya's success at making connections with people? Based on what we've seen in the books, and even in AFFC, I tend to doubt it. That's why it baffles me when people anticipate Sansa to become this charismatic, devotion-inspiring type. If she can't get one single person who doesn't want to have sex with her to go out on a limb for her now, 7. how on Earth is she going to manage to get a bunch of Northerners to lay down their lives for her? Whatever success she'd have, she'd have with the skillset Littlefinger is giving her--manipulation, blackmail, bribery, charm, deceit--but while those are effective methods in the South, that sort of behaviour wouldn't do in the North at all; they'd either scoff at her, or smile and nod and later cut her legs out from under her.

1. Sandor is very different. He actually shows care and regard for Sansa as a person. This does not mean that Sandor and Sansa had a super healthy relationship. Nope. Not at all. But there is very much a difference between him and others.

2. Check out my Sandor/Sansa posts (just click to see the first post of this Thread, brash has them linked). It's pretty clear that Sandor's loyalty's become divided. He never hits Sansa even when ordered to (Dontos's diversion might have stopped a few of them, but I don't think Meyrn or the others would have stopped). Then, he tried to tell the other KG to stop.

3. I noticed how you repeat yourself without actually addressing previously made points that the situations Sansa had made making real friendships impossible.

4. Yeah, it is a big departure. Not because Sansa is unable to make connections, but because 1) Sansa had a regular maid (which she did not have at this point, and the ones who were, were almost certainly spies) and 2) Shae was friendly instead of jealous.

5. Just because you ignore counter arguments doesn't mean they are less valid.

Again:

A. None of Arya's friends risked their life and/or safety to become Arya's friend. They either believed her to be a peasant or were already rebelling against Joffery. This has MUCH more to do with their ability to make friends than their own abilities.

Arya is charming. Absolutely. But her situation allowed her to make friends while Sansa's not.

B. Sansa's current situation is hardly better. Her potential allies (ie enemies of Littlefinger) see her as an enemy. This is not conductive to making friends.

C. The only time they had the same situation, neither made any real friends. Arya made one. A man her dad hired to teach her. I don't know if you want to count him since sex apparently disqualifies friendship. I don't doubt Syrio's affections for her were real. But I get the feeling that Arya and Sansa weren't exactly allowed to run around KL. Thus, the only person who becomes either of their friend's is a man that Ned specifically allows contact with.

6. By some, I figure you mean yourself. Hence, your willingness to ignore the difference in Sansa's and Arya's situations and claim it was all internal despite other people pointing out the different situations.

7. Well, Jeyne is doing it by calling herself Arya. It wasn't because Arya was sort of super charming. Obviously, because otherwise they would notice it's not the same person. Being Sansa Stark is all she would need to get the intial help. After that, we'll see.

8. I got to thinking. How loyal are Arya's friends? One of her biggest bits is the fact that people keep leaving her. Gendry and Hot Pie left her. I don't blame Hot Pie (my hatred for Gendry is neither reasoned nor fair, but still, fuck Gendry). He has a chance for some peace. But if he was some true friend that would risk his life for her, wouldn't he go with her. It's not like she couldn't find him a place. He's a friend. But I doubt he would have approached her, much less befriend her if she was in a situation like Sansa.

There's a high chance the Faceless Men are using her.

[Newstar]

1. Sandor is very different. He actually shows care and regard for Sansa as a person. This does not mean that Sandor and Sansa had a super healthy relationship. Nope. Not at all. But there is very much a difference between him and others.

But you acknowledge that his lust for her is a big part of his interactions and has unpleasant results for both of them (assault for her, regret and mental breakdown for him), and that his lust could be characterized as "obsessive" and "dark and dangerous" feelings similar to the obsessive lust other characters hold towards Sansa? Good. Then that's sorted.

2. Check out my Sandor/Sansa posts (just click to see the first post of this Thread, brash has them linked). It's pretty clear that Sandor's loyalty's become divided. He never hits Sansa even when ordered to

This is absolutely untrue. GRRM very deliberately never puts the Hound in a position where he's forced to choose between beating Sansa and disobeying orders, I suspect because it wouldn't have been in character for the Hound to flat-out refuse but that it would make the Hound look unsympathetic were he to participate in her beatings.

3. I noticed how you repeat yourself without actually addressing previously made points that the situations Sansa had made making real friendships impossible.

I actually countered the points about Dontos and Sansa's other fairweather friends somehow being indicative of Sansa's ability to inspire friendship. Her circumstances were not conducive to friendship, certainly, but her failure to make even one real friend is telling.

4. Yeah, it is a big departure. Not because Sansa is unable to make connections, but because 1) Sansa had a regular maid (which she did not have at this point, and the ones who were, were almost certainly spies) and 2) Shae was friendly instead of jealous.

My point is that Shae and Sansa's friendship stuck out, since it was something she never managed to do in the books. (It's not clear in the show either how Sansa managed to get Shae to like her, as Shae went from hating her in episode 3 to being comforting and warm in episode 6, so maybe the TV writers also find it hard to write Sansa as a winner of hearts.)

A. None of Arya's friends risked their life and/or safety to become Arya's friend. They either believed her to be a peasant or were already rebelling against Joffery. This has MUCH more to do with their ability to make friends than their own abilities.

They didn't, true, but they were willing to actually be her friend, not someone who lured her in with sweet talk or flattery.

B. Sansa's current situation is hardly better. Her potential allies (ie enemies of Littlefinger) see her as an enemy. This is not conductive to making friends.

And yet she is the one who is not attracting any friendly interest, and she is also the one holding herself at a distance and holding back and not making the effort, which was my earlier point that she kind of sucks at this sort of thing and her current situation/training is not likely to help her improve. In AFFC, we see and hear of her interact with others--Colemon, Mya, Lothor Brune, and Fat Maddy--but there's no indication of genuine friendly interest or assistance from anyone (I'm very skeptical of Randa's intentions) and no indication that Sansa is particularly interested in reaching out to form those connections at any rate.

C. The only time they had the same situation, neither made any real friends. Arya made one. A man her dad hired to teach her. I don't know if you want to count him since sex apparently disqualifies friendship. I don't doubt Syrio's affections for her were real. But I get the feeling that Arya and Sansa weren't exactly allowed to run around KL. Thus, the only person who becomes either of their friend's is a man that Ned specifically allows contact with.

Arya was friends with Mycah, wasn't she? And her subsequent collecting of friends the way others collect lint stands in stark (sorry) contrast to Sansa's inability to do so.

6. By some, I figure you mean yourself. Hence, your willingness to ignore the difference in Sansa's and Arya's situations and claim it was all internal despite other people pointing out the different situations.

If you think I'm the first person to observe that many fans view Sansa as a snob, then you clearly haven't been paying attention to fandom discussions for the past...forever. I'd prefer to think of it as class consciousness or ideas as to what befits a lady, but a lot of fans view Sansa as a snob and that is a valid interpretation of her despairing of Arya making friends with "all sorts of people," 'tis true. Another example is her comparatively more distant relationship with Jon (not cold, necessarily--we hear about Sansa teaching Jon how to talk to a girl, which is adorable--but more distant). Arya clearly made an effort that Sansa could or would not with Jon, and it resulted in a much closer connection with Jon.

7. Well, Jeyne is doing it by calling herself Arya. It wasn't because Arya was sort of super charming. Obviously, because otherwise they would notice it's not the same person. Being Sansa Stark is all she would need to get the intial help. After that, we'll see.

Really? Because her own mother and brother pretty much acted as if she'd died the moment they got word of her marriage to Tyrion, and Stannis contemptuously calling Sansa "Lady Lannister"--even though Stannis isn't a true Northman--and scoffing at Jon's claim that Winterfell belonged to his sister is not reassuring. I guess you could argue that the Northmen wouldn't hold Sansa's marriage against her any more than they held "Arya's" marriage against her, but guilt by association is a powerful thing. (I do wonder if Sansa will somehow suffer guilt by association due to her connection with Littlefinger. There seems to be an ongoing theme of characters getting away with things they did but being blamed for things they didn't do, so I wouldn't be surprised if Sansa stood accused of colluding with Littlefinger to do this or that horrible thing.)

8. I got to thinking. How loyal are Arya's friends? One of her biggest bits is the fact that people keep leaving her. Gendry and Hot Pie left her. I don't blame Hot Pie (my hatred for Gendry is neither reasoned nor fair, but still, fuck Gendry). He has a chance for some peace. But if he was some true friend that would risk his life for her, wouldn't he go with her. It's not like she couldn't find him a place. He's a friend. But I doubt he would have approached her, much less befriend her if she was in a situation like Sansa.

My point is that they cared about her--even if they left her--they were on the level, they didn't betray her, they didn't have some hidden agenda, and they cared about her for real, as a person. That's big, to me. Just because they didn't want to go with her no matter where she wanted to go, doesn't mean that they weren't truly her friends. They never betrayed her trust, they never deceived her, they never wanted to have sex with her (that we know of). That puts her way ahead of Sansa, and those are just two people. We hear later about the friends Arya makes, and how she's sad to give up Cat, since she'll miss "Cat's" friends (which was a long list).

There's a high chance the Faceless Men are using her.

Oh, I'm not arguing that the FM are her friends, just that Arya seems to have a natural charisma and an ability to inspire friendship (passive friend-making) and reach out and make friends (active friend-making) that Sansa comparatively lacks--Nymeria's got the huge pack, after all--and that I consequently have a hard time imagining Sansa being a charismatic, winning type. She seems on track, all other things being equal, to being a more moral version of Littlefinger, and nobody likes Littlefinger, particularly, except for poor, misguided Lysa: it's just that he's useful, and even those who mistrust him can't come up with enough dirt on him to take him down. Littlefinger doesn't have any real friends, either. And again, I'm hardly the first to point that out or to hold that opinion.

More generally, though, I've noticed that there are some assumptions about Sansa and Sansa's arc which are repeated so often that they seem to be accepted as truth or so trite that there's no point questioning them. I did originally hold these opinions, but the more I looked at the books and sort of thought about Sansa's arc, the more I tend to question them:

1. Sansa is not corrupted and will not be corrupted by Littlefinger

2. Sansa will not lose her compassionate side

3. Sansa does not trust Littlefinger as of the end of AFFC

4. Sansa will realize that Littlefinger intends to poison Sweetrobin

5. Sansa will consciously move against Littlefinger

6. Sansa is charismatic, inspiring leader material, capable of leading men and women and winning hearts

7. Sansa can and will inspire the North to rise for her

8. Sansa's arc is about her learning to assert her autonomy and her desires, including her romantic desires, and forge her own path

There are probably more, but these seem to be the main ones.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Posted, then decided to stop feeding the trolls.

[Lummel]

...Oh and now that i've watched that beautiful French version of Beauty & the Beast, i was strucked with how similar belle was to sansa. In particular this: Belle is at first frightened of the Beast, just like Sansa was of Sandor, and yet, even after both pairs have interacted, and Belle has seen that the beast is a good man deep down, she still stands her ground and doesn't accept the beast's proposal because it isn't what she wants at the moment, and tells him some things i am sure no one would ever dare tell the beast to their face, which reminded me of the rooftop scene where Sandor still tries make sansa see that the world is a bad place and sansa calls him horrid, letting her guard down, and ends up convincing him more to believe in her belives than he ever did with her... :)

I suppose that's where I disagree and think that Sansa is more important.

The Beast is basically decent, but Sandor isn't. We know exactly what he was like pre-Sansa from offering to kill Bran in Tyrion I AGOT, to chopping down Mycah and laughing about it.

It isn't so much that Sansa recognises, in my opinion, a decency in Sandor so much as she causes or provokes a decency to grow in Sandor. He wants to confide in her and to be good towards her and this I think drives the change in him that leads to his deathbed breakdown with Arya and gives him the chance of a new life on the Quiet Isle.

For me this reinforces the idea of Sansa as Persephone. Her presence brings the spring and the chance of new life.

[Caro99]

It isn't so much that Sansa recognises, in my opinion, a decency in Sandor so much as she causes or provokes a decency to grow in Sandor. He wants to confide in her and to be good towards her and this I think drives the change in him that leads to his deathbed breakdown with Arya and gives him the chance of a new life on the Quiet Isle.

For me this reinforces the idea of Sansa as Persephone. Her presence brings the spring and the chance of new life.

I had not looked at it that way but you are right & I agree! In the movie the plot is for belle to discover the beauty and goodness in the beast, whereas with SanSan there is this journey where we get to see Sansa having a positive effect on Sandor and so many others who may not have even themselves believed that they had goodness and kindness in them. Both are beautiful stories :)

[Kobayashi Maru]

It isn't so much that Sansa recognises, in my opinion, a decency in Sandor so much as she causes or provokes a decency to grow in Sandor. He wants to confide in her and to be good towards her and this I think drives the change in him that leads to his deathbed breakdown with Arya and gives him the chance of a new life on the Quiet Isle.

For me this reinforces the idea of Sansa as Persephone. Her presence brings the spring and the chance of new life.

:agree:

this is my view on the matter exactly. She doesn't even know how she influences him but she does nevertheless. I love how that urge to help her and be good to her overpowers a lifetime of repressing any decent emotion and compassion toward others. He spent his entire life building this anger driven persona,this wall around him and it crumbles down before her. The most important influence she has on him is in how he perceives his values and he sees them as faulty.

[bgona]

Thanks to all!! Tonight I will start.

[Newstar]

Posted, then decided to stop feeding the trolls.

Why, I'm downright flattered that you would classify my lack of uncritical agreement with your opinion, or my disagreement with some pretty questionable assertions in your post (the Hound was ordered to beat Sansa and refused?), as trolling. I mean, I could always post a wall of text on Sandor and Sansa's profound, mystical, unknowable bond, if that would make you feel any better, but I'm way more interested in an actual analysis of what's going on with Sansa's character in the books than in enthusiastically agreeing with the same ten or so points everyone seems to accept without question (Sansa is a natural leader, Sansa can make friends easily and will make friends easily, Sansa's going to be Queen in the North and be awesome at it, GRRM is at all invested in Sansa's romantic happiness, etc. etc.), which doesn't seem to advance the discussion at all and which seems at times to ignore or discount the books.

Topic: I've always thought that the "mentors" in the Stark kids' arcs are a good indication of where their arcs might ultimately go. Bran's mentors are Jojen and Bloodraven (he seems to be Bloodraven's direct successor, so that's pretty self-explanatory). Arya's mentors are Syrio Forel (bravo, "water dancer"); Jaqen (assassin); the Hound (soldier); and the kindly man (FM teacher). Who are Sansa's mentors, as in the people who explicitly set out to "teach" her (even if she doesn't necessarily accept their teachings)? Cersei; the Hound (teaches her how to survive Joffrey); and Littlefinger. At this stage, I tend to think she's more likely to become a Littlefinger/Varys-type mover and shaker than a queen, although she lacks Littlefinger and Varys' ambition and fondness for plots.

[Milady of York]

I think that dissecting Beauty and the Beast is a great idea; as for the analysis itself, I would suggest it be divided in three big areas/stages that should address specific points:

a. Origins, History and Symbolism of Beauty and the Beast:

1. The origins of the myth in ancient Greece and its continuation in Roman literature and mythology.

2. Other ancient versions of the tale in other early civilisations, such as Egypt, Mesopotamia, Israel, India, etc.

3. Medieval retellings of the tale across Europe up to the Renaissance.

4. Modern retellings (the French Villeneuve, Perrault, etc., versions the contemporary ones are based upon).

b. Beauty and the Beast in Popular culture:

1. TV series (here we’d dissect the one Martin wrote).

2. Classic films (the French one, the Disney one and other films with this plot, even subverted versions of it).

3. Influences in Literature (Phantom of the Opera, The Hunchback of Notre Dame and other books).

4. Music (musicals, opera, songs with this theme, both old and new).

c. Beauty and the Beast and ASOIAF:

1. Here we’d apply everything we’ve learnt to reevaluating Sansa’s own subplot. I think that in the end the one which matters is Martin’s script for the 1987 series, but it will be quite enlightening for us to find out more about what inspired the tale that inspired him.

This would give us enough to discuss if we dedicate Thread XIII to this sole purpose, after we’ve finished with the male influences in Sansa’s life we're at right now. That would give all persons willing to write essays on each point time to watch the film/series and do the required research. Thoughts?

[brashcandy]

Milady, as I intimated to you earlier, that's quite an impressive framework you've outlined for analyzing the B&B mythology. I'm intrigued by the research possibilities and the potential for illuminating a central part of Sansa's story line in the series. So I'd like to encourage participation, and those interested should contact Milady of York via PM for further clarification. Myself, along with Valkyrja and wonder1859 are planning to focus on analyzing the tv series, and Lady Lea will be looking at the french film, however, Milady's suggestions allow room for greater probing into these areas, as well as offering a range of other options. Obviously, a project like this one requires careful organization, and is fairly intensive, so please be sure that you're willing/able to meet the challenge.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Why, I'm downright flattered that you would classify my lack of uncritical agreement with your opinion, or my disagreement with some pretty questionable assertions in your post (the Hound was ordered to beat Sansa and refused?), as trolling. I mean, I could always post a wall of text on Sandor and Sansa's profound, mystical, unknowable bond, if that would make you feel any better, but I'm way more interested in an actual analysis of what's going on with Sansa's character in the books than in enthusiastically agreeing with the same ten or so points everyone seems to accept without question (Sansa is a natural leader, Sansa can make friends easily and will make friends easily, Sansa's going to be Queen in the North and be awesome at it, GRRM is at all invested in Sansa's romantic happiness, etc. etc.), which doesn't seem to advance the discussion at all and which seems at times to ignore or discount the books.

Topic: I've always thought that the "mentors" in the Stark kids' arcs are a good indication of where their arcs might ultimately go. Bran's mentors are Jojen and Bloodraven (he seems to be Bloodraven's direct successor, so that's pretty self-explanatory). Arya's mentors are Syrio Forel (bravo, "water dancer"); Jaqen (assassin); the Hound (soldier); and the kindly man (FM teacher). Who are Sansa's mentors, as in the people who explicitly set out to "teach" her (even if she doesn't necessarily accept their teachings)? Cersei; the Hound (teaches her how to survive Joffrey); and Littlefinger. At this stage, I tend to think she's more likely to become a Littlefinger/Varys-type mover and shaker than a queen, although she lacks Littlefinger and Varys' ambition and fondness for plots.

You come into a positive Thread to post completely negative comments. There is a difference between disagreement, and "she sucks."

You compare her to a "rival" in an entirely negative light. I've noticed trolls like to do this in Stannis Threads.

You insult posters here. No one is demanding everyone believe Sandor and Sansa have "profound, mystical, unknowable bond." Not everyone here believes it. But again, you claim this to make us seem like the hateful majority who refuses to see reason while you are the lone hero sticking up for what's right instead of, you know, a troll. Nor is everyone here demanding everyone believe an uniform belief. Yet, you act as if we are.

You create different standards in your comparisons. You admit there is differences and that Arya's friends never risked their lives to become her friend, but blame internal differences for their differences with friends. You don't offer a situation where Arya made a friend in Sansa-like circumstances. Hell, you don't even explain how the Hell you're supposed to make a friend when you're watched all the time, and your friends could lose everything for simply being your friend. Nor do you explain on how the differences leverage out. You just say Sansa should have convinced one person to essentially commit suicide in KL.

You ignore arguments people make rather obnoxious ways. Like, I said that Sandor actually cares Sansa which does make it different. You respond by claiming I agree with you instead of trying engage my point (by explaining how that doesn't matter for example). EDIT: In fairness, you sorta do, then claim I agree with you, end of discussion without allowing me to respond your statement which is what I found obnoxious.

Your post is rife with anti-Sansa undercurrent:

You felt the need to include "other" people think she is snob despite that fact that it was your opinion you were talking about. What does other people's insults matter when talking about your opinion? Especially when you claim you don't believe it?

You use Shae/Sansa from the show as "proof" the writers of the show saw it and felt the need to show Sansa making friends. When I gave reasons for it (Sansa's rotating maids and the fact that book Shae and show Shae are two different people), you ignored it and said it stuck out and that's what matters. Really, I would think someone who was truly interested in a critical analysis would be interested in the WHY's of something rather than just using it as a superficial argument to support their point.

In short, I am not just calling anyone who disagrees with me a troll.

[Valkyrja]

Milady, as I intimated to you earlier, that's quite an impressive framework you've outlined for analyzing the B&B mythology. I'm intrigued by the research possibilities and the potential for illuminating a central part of Sansa's story line in the series. So I'd like to encourage participation, and those interested should contact Milady of York via PM for further clarification. Myself, along with Valkyrja and wonder1859 are planning to focus on analyzing the tv series, and Lady Lea will be looking at the french film, however, Milady's suggestions allow room for greater probing into these areas, as well as offering a range of other options. Obviously, a project like this one requires careful organization, and is fairly intensive, so please be sure that you're willing/able to meet the challenge.

Yes, Milady of York, this is amazing. Beauty and the Beast is my favourite folkloric motif of all time. You read my mind, this is what I've been wanting to do here for ages. :bowdown:

I would like to add to your wonderful list, the Northern European versions of the tale (East of the Sun, West of the Moon, and other variations). In addition to looking at the tv series and popular culture, would like to volunteer to do a write up on this aspect of the mythology and folklore. I am extremely passionate about this topic.... I hope that is ok? :)

ETA: I would also add 'Jane Eyre' to the list of 'influences on literature' (though I'm sure we'll cross that bridge when we come to it... :D)

[brashcandy]

Yes, Milady of York, this is amazing. Beauty and the Beast is my favourite folkloric motif of all time. You read my mind, this is what I've been wanting to do here for ages. :bowdown:

I would like to add to your wonderful list, the Northern European versions of the tale (East of the Sun, West of the Moon, and other variations). In addition to looking at the tv series and popular culture, would like to volunteer to do a write up on this aspect of the mythology and folklore. I am extremely passionate about this topic.... I hope that is ok? :)

ETA: I would also add 'Jane Eyre' to the list of 'influences on literature' (though I'm sure we'll cross that bridge when we come to it... :D)

Your ideas sound wonderful Valky :)

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Yes, Milady of York, this is amazing. Beauty and the Beast is my favourite folkloric motif of all time. You read my mind, this is what I've been wanting to do here for ages. :bowdown:

I would like to add to your wonderful list, the Northern European versions of the tale (East of the Sun, West of the Moon, and other variations). In addition to looking at the tv series and popular culture, would like to volunteer to do a write up on this aspect of the mythology and folklore. I am extremely passionate about this topic.... I hope that is ok? :)

ETA: I would also add 'Jane Eyre' to the list of 'influences on literature' (though I'm sure we'll cross that bridge when we come to it... :D)

East of the Sun, West of the Moon - OMG OMG! That is one of my favorites, and I would just LOVE to see it discussed! I like the idea of discussing fairy tales in relation to Sansa's arc; I will go back through my collection of Jungian analysis of fairy tales to see what I can contribute. I've set myself a project to relate Jungian symbolism to Sansa's arc as it is (I am a psych major and Jung has always been a favorite of mine). Milady of York, that's a great outline. I'm going to hunt down the videos to watch.

There is another fairy tale or set of fairy tales which I see as relating to Sansa: the tale of Donkeyskin and allied tales, in academese known as "Aarne-Thompson Type 501B" - dealing with a father who wanted to marry his daughter, because she resembled her mother. Sound familiar? :ack: In some of the tales, the donkey skin comes from an enchanted donkey who shits gold.

The folktales seem to be of German origin and the "skins" range from donkey to pig to cat.

Donkeyskin here: http://www.pitt.edu/...perrault11.html

Other tales of same type "Father who wants to marry his daughter:" http://www.pitt.edu/.../type0510b.html

Meanwhile, I am working on my (shamefully late) Sweetrobin contribution and should have it up by this weekend.

ETA: I found this - I think via LJ - and I don't know if it's been discussed on here but it's a wonderful feminist defense of Sansa's character:

http://feministfiction.com/2012/05/10/in-defense-of-sansa-stark

[Valkyrja]

East of the Sun, West of the Moon - OMG OMG! That is one of my favorites, and I would just LOVE to see it discussed! I like the idea of discussing fairy tales in relation to Sansa's arc; I will go back through my collection of Jungian analysis of fairy tales to see what I can contribute. I've set myself a project to relate Jungian symbolism to Sansa's arc as it is (I am a psych major and Jung has always been a favorite of mine). Milady of York, that's a great outline. I'm going to hunt down the videos to watch.

There is another fairy tale or set of fairy tales which I see as relating to Sansa: the tale of Donkeyskin and allied tales, in academese known as "Aarne-Thompson Type 501B" - dealing with a father who wanted to marry his daughter, because she resembled her mother. Sound familiar? :ack: In some of the tales, the donkey skin comes from an enchanted donkey who shits gold.

The folktales seem to be of German origin and the "skins" range from donkey to pig to cat.

Donkeyskin here: http://www.pitt.edu/...perrault11.html

Other tales of same type "Father who wants to marry his daughter:" http://www.pitt.edu/.../type0510b.html

Meanwhile, I am working on my (shamefully late) Sweetrobin contribution and should have it up by this weekend.

ETA: I found this - I think via LJ - and I don't know if it's been discussed on here but it's a wonderful feminist defense of Sansa's character:

http://feministficti...-of-sansa-stark

Omg, 'Donkeyskin' or 'All-Kinds-of-Furs' is another of my all-time favourites! I'd even been thinking of bringing this into the discussion at some point.....great minds! :D

ETA: In some variations it is called 'Catskin'....which makes it all more fitting for the whole LF's obsession with Cat thing! :ack:

ETA again: I know that, technically, 'East of the Sun, West of the Moon' is not considered to be the exact same 'type' as Beauty and the Beast (the former is Aarne-Thompson 425A, while B&B is type 425 C), but they are very close. Also, the Cupid and Psyche myth relates to both, imo. The 'animal husband' motif and the 'lost husband' motif overlap greatly, so I think it safe to include both in the discussion. :)

[Milady of York]

By the Old Gods, I’m so glad to know you girls loved my idea!

Those who are interested in writing about a specific point must investigate preferably everything that’s in this area, not only a piece of it. For example: if you want to write about B&B influence in literature you should include all works that are clearly influenced, not only a certain work, although you can focus on said book if that’s the one you know most about. Same goes for films, music, and all the other points. The 3^rd area will be like a conclusion summing up what we’ve learnt so far and how it applies to Sansa’s arc.

After updating the list to include your ideas, I’ll post it and will assign each theme to participants who asked. Those interested either in writing of adding anything else to the list, please PM me. We haven’t dates nor deadlines yet, that will be dealt with once all themes are taken. We should be able to start in the next thread.

[bgona]

The musical also?

Edit: Cause I reread it and at the end also is the musical and all the music with this theme.

But this a whole big work!!! They are many videoclips or songs that can be related to B&B!!