From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XII

[bgona]

This weekend I'll see if I can watch LB&LB and do a quick write up on the Sansa/Sandor similarities.

Yesterday I watched and I saw many until half movie. I will love to talk about them! Even to only highlight ideas. ;D

[Queen of Winter]

Wow, there's certainly a lot of projects going on! :D

Looking forward to reading everyone's contributions! :read:

(Oh and is there still going to be an Arya reread?)

[Kittykatknits]

You come into a positive Thread to post completely negative comments. There is a difference between disagreement, and "she sucks."

<snip>

In short, I am not just calling anyone who disagrees with me a troll.

I could not have said this better. IIRC, it was brashcandy who once said this series of threads serve two purposes:

1. An attempt to see and understand the world of ASOIAF through Sansa's eyes.

2. Perform a sympathetic re-read and analysis of her character due to the misunderstanding and negativity that she commonly receives.

This is a positive thread to better and explore her story arc, Sansa as a character, and the themes that she helps to reveal to us. A focus on these elements is refreshing and worth my time to explore.

I think that dissecting Beauty and the Beast is a great idea; as for the analysis itself, I would suggest it be divided in three big areas/stages that should address specific points:

I think this is a wonderful idea and am looking forward to what people would come up with. I'd love to volunteer for a topic but my time is at a big premium right now and I would hate to commit to a writeup and not follow through. I do expect to provide commentary though. :)

[brashcandy]

Wow, there's certainly a lot of projects going on! :D

Looking forward to reading everyone's contributions! :read:

(Oh and is there still going to be an Arya reread?)

:) Indeed, at this rate we'll be backed up till TWOW is published (desperate hope is desperate)

Yes, the Arya reread is a go-go :) Me, Rapsie, and (fingers crossed), Lyanna Stark.

[bgona]

I would argue that lying is an excellent political tool, and that anyone who can skillfully manipulate the truth to his benefit is good politician.

Im not quite sure that I agree that he is really that impulsive, his plan to abduct Sansa seemed quite well thought, first bribe Dontos,then use Dontos to gain Sansa's trust, kill Joffrey with Ollenna's help, then take her away in the ensuing chaos in a boat. Seems legit.

Im also not sure that its all based on lies, apart from the pushing Lysa incident.

I agree that he is a terrible public servant, but his only aim is to aggrandize his power, not to genuinely improve things for the Kingdom, so in that he is succeeding in his political mission, and therefore a good politician. He will also use any means neccesary, setting him up as a sort of Machiavellian figure

The Chaos that his role causes (Civil War, the crowns bankruptcy and corruption) all seems to be to his benefit as well.

I guess it mostly depends on our differing views on what a Good Politician. Mine is someone who succeeds in his aims , yours is someone who works for the greater good and is generally a good person.

I do love these debates

Or a bad one. I don´t like my politicians been liers (at least bad liers). He lacks of a moral code about helping the country (this case the kingdom) and not his own personal interests. He is a good liar (that even makes mistakes as at the Hand Tourney where he could have been discovert by Ned, but Ned was slow thinker and hadn´t time to think).

Lysa was something that he should do quickly, he didn´t want that Lysa died that early. It brought him a lot of problems. But he had to choose between letting Lysa kill Sansa or saving Sansa. Lysa had done a lot of her performance at LF ideas, so she was less useful, so she was the one that he choose to die.

[Queen of Winter]

:) Indeed, at this rate we'll be backed up till TWOW is published (desperate hope is desperate)

:laugh:

Yes, the Arya reread is a go-go :) Me, Rapsie, and (fingers crossed), Lyanna Stark.

Excellent news. Looking forward to it! B)

[brashcandy]

:laugh:

Excellent news. Looking forward to it! B)

Oh and it starts at the beginning of November.

[Lummel]

...ETA again: I know that, technically, 'East of the Sun, West of the Moon' is not considered to be the exact same 'type' as Beauty and the Beast (the former is Aarne-Thompson 425A, while B&B is type 425 C), but they are very close. Also, the Cupid and Psyche myth relates to both, imo. The 'animal husband' motif and the 'lost husband' motif overlap greatly, so I think it safe to include both in the discussion. :)

The Cupid and Psyche story reminds me a little of the Sansa triangle. There is what Psyche imagines herself to be married to, herself and cupid who turns out to be her actual husband, which seems a little similar to Sansa recalling being in bed with Tyrion but substituting him for Sandor.

Although neither Tyrion nor Sandor are as benign as Cupid, (well Cupid isn't exactly benign if you are in the throes of love), certainly Cupid isn't as martial or violent as Sansa's husband and first serious love interest.

The Beast motive would suit Tyrion well, if he had actually loved Sansa although subverted here as Sansa doesn't come to care for him.

[bgona]

I suppose that's where I disagree and think that Sansa is more important.

The Beast is basically decent, but Sandor isn't. We know exactly what he was like pre-Sansa from offering to kill Bran in Tyrion I AGOT, to chopping down Mycah and laughing about it.

It isn't so much that Sansa recognises, in my opinion, a decency in Sandor so much as she causes or provokes a decency to grow in Sandor. He wants to confide in her and to be good towards her and this I think drives the change in him that leads to his deathbed breakdown with Arya and gives him the chance of a new life on the Quiet Isle.

For me this reinforces the idea of Sansa as Persephone. Her presence brings the spring and the chance of new life.

But it must be a spot of decency inside so it could grow out. I really believe that Sandor has a great moral ideas. But they are his own moral ideas. They may not fix with the moral ideas of the society where he lives and with ours moral ideas.

Anyway I recall the sentence of a wolf behaves as his master is. When Sandor changes loyalties toward Sansa, he got involve with Sansa moral behavior.

[bgona]

East of the Sun, West of the Moon - OMG OMG! That is one of my favorites, and I would just LOVE to see it discussed! I like the idea of discussing fairy tales in relation to Sansa's arc; I will go back through my collection of Jungian analysis of fairy tales to see what I can contribute. I've set myself a project to relate Jungian symbolism to Sansa's arc as it is (I am a psych major and Jung has always been a favorite of mine). Milady of York, that's a great outline. I'm going to hunt down the videos to watch.

There is another fairy tale or set of fairy tales which I see as relating to Sansa: the tale of Donkeyskin and allied tales, in academese known as "Aarne-Thompson Type 501B" - dealing with a father who wanted to marry his daughter, because she resembled her mother. Sound familiar? :ack: In some of the tales, the donkey skin comes from an enchanted donkey who shits gold.

The folktales seem to be of German origin and the "skins" range from donkey to pig to cat.

Donkeyskin here: http://www.pitt.edu/...perrault11.html

Other tales of same type "Father who wants to marry his daughter:" http://www.pitt.edu/.../type0510b.html

Meanwhile, I am working on my (shamefully late) Sweetrobin contribution and should have it up by this weekend.

ETA: I found this - I think via LJ - and I don't know if it's been discussed on here but it's a wonderful feminist defense of Sansa's character:

http://feministficti...-of-sansa-stark

Donkeyskin can be also related with the tale of the princess that ends up wearing a rushes outfit. Anyway many of these tales begin as an exemplizers of things that we should not do (really scary and dark ones) and had end it as child tales. I will love to read that analysis!

[Caro99]

There is another fairy tale or set of fairy tales which I see as relating to Sansa: the tale of Donkeyskin and allied tales, in academese known as "Aarne-Thompson Type 501B" - dealing with a father who wanted to marry his daughter, because she resembled her mother. Sound familiar? :ack: In some of the tales, the donkey skin comes from an enchanted donkey who shits gold.

Oh Donkeyskin!! :thumbsup: loved it when i was little! hmm,what's that story about east of the moon, west of the sun about?? it sounds intresting...

[Lummel]

But it must be a spot of decency inside so it could grow out. I really believe that Sandor has a great moral ideas. But they are his own moral ideas. They may not fix with the moral ideas of the society where he lives and with ours moral ideas.

Anyway I recall the sentence of a wolf behaves as his master is. When Sandor changes loyalties toward Sansa, he got involve with Sansa moral behavior.

I simply mean that in the Cupid and Psyche story or Beauty and the Beast the male character does not change morally, he is fixed. The story is about the change in the perception and understanding or the female character.

GRRM I think revisits, or nods to the story with Sansa both with Sandor and Tyrion but the dynamic is changed. In the ASOIAF version not only does the female have a change in her perceptions but Sansa is, inadvertently, herself a catalyst for change in the lives of both men, sending Sandor on an inner journey and Tyrion on a physical one.

On the whole I'm inclined to think that the change to Sansa is much less pronounced than in either of the two men, I read her as being more aligned with her values and being stronger at core than Sandor and Tyrion both of whom I think are brittle in comparison to her. That's different to Cupid and Psyche & co.

Whether or not Sandor had spots of decency at the time that Sansa meets with him his life is writ in red and but for her presence there's nothing to suggest that he would have changed by himself.

[bgona]

Yes, Sansa is a kind of main catalyst for Sandor´s change. But I don´t really believe that she is the only one factor of Tyrion´s trip. They are a lot of others factors. Also I see that Tyrion is begining the "sad mood" since his marriage with Sansa.

At both, Sandor and Tyrion, the root is inside. And their interactions with Sansa brought them outside. Interactions change people. Sansa is almost not changed with her interactions with Tyrion, and I believe she is more changed with Sandor´s. But this is a personnal appreciation.

Anyway normally all people can be change by other person, and they do not have to stay the whole time together, maybe it is just a sporadic meeting (maybe a person that it is known at the parc and just tell you something that makes you think and change you).

[Lyanna Stark]

A response to newstar's claim that Sansa cannot make friends easily.

The example used here was mainly that after Ned's beheading and during her journey in the Riverlands, Arya manages to make quite a few friends, while Sansa makes none. Sansa on the other hand have people obsess over her. At least that was my interpretation of newstar's argument.

If we look at the storylines of Sansa and Arya and where they start to diverge geographically is when Ned is executed. While Sanas is in Lannster clutches, Arya gets carted out of Kings Landing by Yoren disguised as a boy.

While Arya goes through a lot on her journey, she is never forced by anyone to become a social pariah. She is able to befriend Gendry, Hot Pie and Lommy Greenhands as much as she wants to, and nobody is trying to prevent that. Arya gets to see the horrors of war and terror wrought in villages and around the countryside and we see how it turns her colder and more vengeful, but she is still able to speak and be social with people who have no ulterior motive, or who don't want or need anything from her other than her friendship or companionship. Arya hersels is disappointed when Hot Pie stays the bake pies and when Gendry wants to stay with the BWB. She seems to think it cheapened their friendship that they did not stay "loyal" and part of her pack, yet I think we can all agree that they were her friends, all the same.

In comparison we have Sansa, who has no chance to cover for herself with a false identity. Instead she is treated by Cersei and the entire court as a traitor and a pariah. People turn away from her when she enters the throne room. Nobody speaks to her. Dontos forgets himself and almost hails her but is corrected. Cersei changes her maids every week, so she will have no chance to make friends with anyone. In other words: Sansa is put through a kind of social torture in that she is made to be completely friendless and she is actively prevented from approaching anyone.

As it happens, she still manages to circumvent this by befriending the Hound and Dontos. None of them "perfect" friends to be sure, but they do act as friends and advisors both. Dontos because of gratitude for Sansa having saved his life, and the Hound due to more complex motivations, but which were clearly put in motion by Sansa showing him compassion about how he got his burns. I don't think it's fair to say that either of these men approach Sansa because they are "obsessed". Sandor's interaction with her is often interpreted as "stalking", but the only times he "stalks" her are at the riot when he saves her (and I think he can be forgiven for assisting her, no?) and the second time is when he goes to her room at the Battle of the Blackwater. The other times they meet and interact it's either by chance (Red Keep roof, Serpentine Steps) or in his line of work (Kingsguard) when he is sent to fetch or guard Sansa.

When it comes to Margaery Tyrell, it should be noted that Sansa does not trust Margaery, Olenna and her cousins first. It's only when Margaery and Olenna run a good cop/bad cop number on her and when Sansa thinks she is going to become a member of their family that she gets rid of her suspicions regarding the Tyrells. He initial reaction is to be suspicious, even if she is completely starved of normal social interaction for a girl her age.

In the Eyrie she clearly manages to at least be in good standing and to be respected and liked by almost everyone, from Lothor Brune, Maester Colemon and (the occasionally visiting) Mya Stone. She gets along well with Myranda on the way down (and no, the Jon Snow blurting out are the readers assuming that Myranda Royce is reading ASOIAF with the same glasses at night: she is not). And this is while she is in an environment when she is pretending to be someone else and always has to be on her guard.

Further, it becomes clearer in the later novels that the way Sansa was treated has had an impact on a lot of people. The most obvious is Sandor Clegane, since he laments it openly to Arya, but we also see Arys Oakheart thinking about how beating Sansa stained his honour and it's one of the reasons he feels he has already stained his honour so much he has an easier time agreeing to Arianne's plan. Lady Tanda tells Sansa she has a good heart and Lollys cries at her wedding with Tyrion. In Cersei's ADWD chapters when she is furious over how ungrateful Sansa is, we see the rest of the Council shocked into silence by her outburst, since it's generally known Sansa was treated abominably: she was beaten, treated as a social pariah, forced to marry a Lannister etc.

To claim based on the evidence given in the novels that Sansa is somehow unable, or has a hard time, making friends is clearly a complete fabrication. There is no textual evidence that Sansa would have a hard time befriending people in any type of normal social situation. Since Ned's beheading she has been in extreme social situations where she has still managed to befriend people despite this. This contradicts completely the theory that Sansa should have a hard time making friends.

[Lyanna Stark]

This post in another thread also made me consider some things. To me, this does not really describe the true nature of things, although I can see where the poster is coming from. We've looked at Sansa's patriarch's before and how, if LF ends up deadened, Sansa may be without, yet has it been a problem with "abusive" men who never listens?

Or it is. We just don't know at this point. I like the revelation of the Hound's fate on the Quiet Isle being a sweet little Easter egg for the fans, since it's the best he's likely able to do within the Crapsack World that is Westeros.

Topic (Sansa's perfect match): you know, the saddest thing for me about the talk of the Hound being a good match for Sansa is that that he's just another guy in Sansa's arc who won't take "No" for an answer, which is pretty much all of them. I know in a lot of romance stories, men coercing women is romanticized (and ASOIAF seems to have some of that, in between Dany/Drogo and Asha/Qarl's rough sex), but I just want someone to actually listen to Sansa when she tells them "No," and she hasn't interacted with any men like that to date. Ned won't listen to her in AGOT (or even clue her in, really). Joffrey won't listen to her pleas and abuses her up until his death, despite her pleading with him repeatedly not to. Dontos/Littlefinger's response to her refusal to proceed with the escape plan is to sell her out to Tywin. Tyrion marries Sansa and makes an attempt to consummate the marriage despite her obvious reluctance. Whenever she tells Littlefinger "No," he hears "Not now," and proceeds to do whatever he wants, anyway. Marillion tries to rape her. Sweetrobin climbs into bed with Alayne unless she locks the door to keep him out and is a spoiled little dictator who won't accept "No" for an answer, even if he listens to Littlefinger. The Hound is no exception: he grabs her and won't let go immediately when she asks, he pinches her chin to force her to look at him, he won't leave her alone when she's frightened and uncomfortable, his response during Blackwater to her closing her eyes is to shove her down on the bed, and she basically has to shame him into not raping her. Sure, he boohoos about taking the song later to Arya, but still. (Blackwater was the worst of it, but he spent a good deal of ACOK getting in Sansa's face and manhandling her despite her obvious discomfort.) He stops short of raping her, at least, but barely, and he went to the room with the intention of raping her, so I think we can safely classify him with the rest of the crappy, coercive men in her life.

I just want someone who will respect her freaking boundaries already and actually listen to her for once. Is that too much to ask? It's really no surprise that Sansa romanticizes the Hound assaulting her during Blackwater, keeps the bloodstained cloak as a souvenir (...really, Sansa?), remembers the incident with wistful nostalgia ("he took a song and a kiss, and left me with nothing but a bloody cloak"), and still views him as a protector, considering that she hasn't had any experiences with men that aren't coercive and violating in one sense or another, but it bothers me when modern readers do; I wonder whether GRRM wants us to view it as nostalgically and romantically as Sansa does, or whether Sansa's view is supposed to be yet another of Sansa's deluded romantic fantasies. A lot of romance novels romanticize romantic partners not respecting boundaries/coercion/assault, so again, it's not surprising, but I dunno. Shippers gonna ship, I guess, and romance novels sell like hotcakes. The romantic hero of the Twilight books is a dude who messes with his lady love's car so that she can't drive anywhere, ostensibly to better "protect" her, so yeah, I guess there are a lot of people who find that sort of behaviour romantic, but while I can give Sansa a pass for doing so, it sort of baffles me when others do.

I'd like some more time to sift through this myself, but I wonder if a lot of what is in the body of this post does not reflect why people are so averse to Sansa having any type of feelings for Sandor?

There's also the fact that sure, Ned didn't listen to Sansa's pleas to stay in Kings Landing, and the Hound didn't immediately let her go when he held her face, but are any of these things comparable to LF plotting to behead her father, Tyrion forcing her into a marriage or Joffrey having her repeatedly beaten? Is there a "severity" level here somewhere and does it have meaning?

Regret is also brought up: in that Sandor deeply regrets how he treated her and that he could not do more for her in Kings Landing, Tyrion seems to realise after a while that Sansa and he will never be happy, and he comes to regret going along with the marriage, more or less, but LF shows no regret, and Dontos seems convinced the Tyrells are as bad as the Lannisters. Does regret matter?

There's also the comparison with romance novels which I don't think holds water (for a lot of the "traditional" Mills & Boon type romance novels), but as I am having a kid-in-lap issue I can't really type it out right now.

Thoughts?

[brashcandy]

There's also the fact that sure, Ned didn't listen to Sansa's pleas to stay in Kings Landing, and the Hound didn't immediately let her go when he held her face, but are any of these things comparable to LF plotting to behead her father, Tyrion forcing her into a marriage or Joffrey having her repeatedly beaten? Is there a "severity" level here somewhere and does it have meaning?

I certainly think so. Sandor grabbing her or speaking to her harshly might not have been nice or considerate, but can we say it was abusive? Denying her liberty for a few seconds by holding on to her hand wasn't right, but it's not the same as what Tyrion did when he sentenced her to life as Lady Lannister, essentially ensuring long term suffering and ostracism in the North. My problem with Newstar's posts is that they endeavour, in a very sly way, to present Sansa as this total victim, who is just taken advantage of by everyone around her. Whilst Sansa did suffer in KL, she found ways to mitigate that suffering and stand up for herself, and when you get past a lot of the macho posturing and threatening words delivered by Sandor, we realise that he did not contribute to the ills she endured for the majority of her time there. The one glaring exception to this would be the night of the Blackwater, and I think that is accepted as Sandor's lowest point in his behaviour towards Sansa, although it also becomes a kind of "high" point in their interactions, taking on meaning that extends much further than Sandor's breakdown.

[brashcandy]

I suppose I privilege the interaction between Sandor and Sansa because even know he's not some ideal suitor and can be a crass jerk, there's underlying dynamics between them which indicate a genuine interest in each other. There's no manipulation or treachery involved, and Sandor's behaviour reads as clumsy attempts to connect and harsh modes of communication, rather than being geared towards entrapping Sansa or truly disregarding her wishes.

[Lyanna Stark]

I suppose I privilege the interaction between Sandor and Sansa because even know he's not some ideal suitor and can be a crass jerk, there's underlying dynamics between them which indicate a genuine interest in each other. There's no manipulation or treachery involved, and Sandor's behaviour reads as clumsy attempts to connect and harsh modes of communication, rather than being geared towards entrapping Sansa or truly disregarding her wishes.

This is the way I would asses it as well. Sandor is crass, occasionally brutish, harsh and crude, but he is not trying to take advantage of her for himself.

The one time he almost transgresses is during the Battle of the Blackwater, but even then he doesn't hurt her, despite being in the worst possible state one can imagine, drunk out of his mind etc etc. (I also think the theory that he came there with raping her in mind is silly.)

I actually think Dontos gets flak for similar reasons, but when Dontos told LF, I actually think he genuinely believed that the Tyrells were as bad as the Lannisters: he wanted to leave KL with Sansa and help her away from the Tyrells.

The romance novel comparison is interesting for a couple of reasons, but I assume the comparison to "Twilight" is the one that people most often whip out. Yet "Twilight" is disturbing in that Edward really doesn't believe Bella capable of anything, and she agrees. He solves this by stalking her (including watching her sleep in her room without her knowing). Edward constantly transgresses and ignores boundaries, but that is described as OK. When Sandor ignores Sansa's boundaries, at the Battle of the Blackwater, that's not described as ok, and it's something he deeply regrets. He is, as far as I know, the only man who really and deeply regrets the time he did not respect Sansa.

Tyrion and LF on the other hand do not have the same type of regret (Tyrion has some regret, but mostly for himself, and LF has none), and they arguably had a far greater impact on Sansa in how they have restricted her life. Sandor had no real power over her in that way.

[Elba the Intoner]

I suppose I privilege the interaction between Sandor and Sansa because even know he's not some ideal suitor and can be a crass jerk, there's underlying dynamics between them which indicate a genuine interest in each other. There's no manipulation or treachery involved, and Sandor's behaviour reads as clumsy attempts to connect and harsh modes of communication, rather than being geared towards entrapping Sansa or truly disregarding her wishes.

Yes this is how I see it too. In fact, the time he grabs her on the roof it's because he thinks she is going to fall, though admittedly she then asks him to let go.

This is the way I would asses it as well. Sandor is crass, occasionally brutish, harsh and crude, but he is not trying to take advantage of her for himself.

The one time he almost transgresses is during the Battle of the Blackwater, but even then he doesn't hurt her, despite being in the worst possible state one can imagine, drunk out of his mind etc etc. (I also think the theory that he came there with raping her in mind is silly.)

I actually think Dontos gets flak for similar reasons, but when Dontos told LF, I actually think he genuinely believed that the Tyrells were as bad as the Lannisters: he wanted to leave KL with Sansa and help her away from the Tyrells.

The romance novel comparison is interesting for a couple of reasons, but I assume the comparison to "Twilight" is the one that people most often whip out. Yet "Twilight" is disturbing in that Edward really doesn't believe Bella capable of anything, and she agrees. He solves this by stalking her (including watching her sleep in her room without her knowing). Edward constantly transgresses and ignores boundaries, but that is described as OK. When Sandor ignores Sansa's boundaries, at the Battle of the Blackwater, that's not described as ok, and it's something he deeply regrets. He is, as far as I know, the only man who really and deeply regrets the time he did not respect Sansa.

Tyrion and LF on the other hand do not have the same type of regret (Tyrion has some regret, but mostly for himself, and LF has none), and they arguably had a far greater impact on Sansa in how they have restricted her life. Sandor had no real power over her in that way.

Yes, this is the big thing for me - that Sandor seems truly genuinely sorry for his actions. It's also my reasoning for liking him when people argue that he's a child murderer who laughed at killing a child and just because he was acting on someone else's orders doesn't excuse him. Those are all true, but little by little we see him slowly transferring his loyalty to Sansa, the daughter of the man who never ever accepted child murder under any circumstances, and wanting to serve the Starks, and in the end Sandor comes to regret all those acts, including Mycah, very deeply.

[Kittykatknits]

This post in another thread also made me consider some things. To me, this does not really describe the true nature of things, although I can see where the poster is coming from. We've looked at Sansa's patriarch's before and how, if LF ends up deadened, Sansa may be without, yet has it been a problem with "abusive" men who never listens?

I'd like some more time to sift through this myself, but I wonder if a lot of what is in the body of this post does not reflect why people are so averse to Sansa having any type of feelings for Sandor?

There's also the fact that sure, Ned didn't listen to Sansa's pleas to stay in Kings Landing, and the Hound didn't immediately let her go when he held her face, but are any of these things comparable to LF plotting to behead her father, Tyrion forcing her into a marriage or Joffrey having her repeatedly beaten? Is there a "severity" level here somewhere and does it have meaning?

Regret is also brought up: in that Sandor deeply regrets how he treated her and that he could not do more for her in Kings Landing, Tyrion seems to realise after a while that Sansa and he will never be happy, and he comes to regret going along with the marriage, more or less, but LF shows no regret, and Dontos seems convinced the Tyrells are as bad as the Lannisters. Does regret matter?

There's also the comparison with romance novels which I don't think holds water (for a lot of the "traditional" Mills & Boon type romance novels), but as I am having a kid-in-lap issue I can't really type it out right now.

Thoughts?

First, I am also having kid-in-lap issues with a three year old right now so I hope there is at least some level of coherence in this post.

I saw that post when it first appeared and came rather close to answering it and then decided not do. I know there are many who hate Sansa and while I disagree I can live with it. Mostly. What really gets my goat is when a person claims to be a fan yet chooses to infantalize her character which I think is much worse. It minimizes her as a character and turns her in to someone who is just a victim. I can not agree with that viewpoint.

I do think there is a severity issue here. Ned didn't listen to her about wanting to stay in KL but I think his mistake was not in wanting that to happen but in his failure to explain to her what is really happening. His goal was to keep his children safe and I don't fault him for that, my issue is with his failure to communicate with her. Sandor's behavior the night of the BBW is flat our wrong, I can't see it any other way. However, if we look at the complete picture, I'd say the viewpoint expressed in this post doesn't hold water. During the conversation on the serpentine steps, he knows she is lying and not only respects her choice to keep a secret but helps her to do so with Blount. He also listens to her viewpoints and positions on the rooftop. Later we see, that he not just listens to her but that her beliefs cause him to change. How many men in the entire series can we say that about? I contrast that with Tyrion who felt entitled to keep information from her and decide for her what she needed in her life.

As to the Harlequins (which I think is the same thing as Mills & Boon), it's a silly comparison. Either its an insult to what I presume are the female readers or an insult to Martin, he's a better writer than that. I don't think the comparison is even worth my time to respond too.

I certainly think so. Sandor grabbing her or speaking to her harshly might not have been nice or considerate, but can we say it was abusive? Denying her liberty for a few seconds by holding on to her hand wasn't right, but it's not the same as what Tyrion did when he sentenced her to life as Lady Lannister, essentially ensuring long term suffering and ostracism in the North. My problem with Newstar's posts is that they endeavour, in a very sly way, to present Sansa as this total victim, who is just taken advantage of by everyone around her. Whilst Sansa did suffer in KL, she found ways to mitigate that suffering and stand up for herself, and when you get past a lot of the macho posturing and threatening words delivered by Sandor, we realise that he did not contribute to the ills she endured for the majority of her time there. The one glaring exception to this would be the night of the Blackwater, and I think that is accepted as Sandor's lowest point in his behaviour towards Sansa, although it also becomes a kind of "high" point in their interactions, taking on meaning that extends much further than Sandor's breakdown.

I said much the same thing in my response to Lyanna Stark. I get that people hate Sansa but I find the infantalizing to be worse. That's what his posts seem to do. Reduce her to merely a victim as if she exists in the story to be beaten and terrorized.

Tyrion and LF on the other hand do not have the same type of regret (Tyrion has some regret, but mostly for himself, and LF has none), and they arguably had a far greater impact on Sansa in how they have restricted her life. Sandor had no real power over her in that way.

I'm not sure that Tyrion ever displayed regret or clear understanding of what was done to Sansa. His regret seems to be about himself. We've got his thoughts that she didn't hold to her vow and then in Dance he thinks of her bitterly. In contrast, Sandor's regret over her treatment is very explict. He completely understands that he is in the wrong.