Arya vs Sansa Thread

[lilenadheas]

The point is that any woman - fighter or not - can be a victim of rape. It's not a matter of how hard you fight back or not. You put the blame on the attacker, not the woman's method of resistance.

THANK YOU! fucking this

[Independent George]

Indeed. And it's a shame that Sansa's unconventional arc isn't recognized more, because I think a lot of readers are really missing out on the poignancy and relevancy of her development. And it's not just in the things that happen to her, but how she responds to those experiences that makes it so remarkable.

I freely admit to hating Sansa in the first half of GOT, and feel fully justified in it. The problem I have is when people don't recognize just how much she's changed and grown since then. It takes a different kind of strength to survive her gilded cage as she has, but it's strength nonetheless - and she has a lot of it.

The point is that any woman - fighter or not - can be a victim of rape. It's not a matter of how hard you fight back or not. You put the blame on the attacker, not the woman's method of resistance.

Hell, Brienne was nearly raped by the Bloody Mummers. There's only so much one person can do in the circumstances.

[SerStinger]

I disagree with "vs"s too but I think comparing Sansa and Arya can be really educative because I believe they do form a symmetry. And I believe the question "why Arya ran away from KL but Sansa didn't" is really the most relevant question here, but not in the way the OP thinks it is. Let me show you how.

I think both characters represent growing up and becoming a rebel against the system. They both start as the members of aristocracy, which is a normal integrated part of the society. Then their family is thrown out of the system and they become victims, and then they both become rebels against the system. So, their journey is identical. The difference is, Sansa's rebellion is inward while Arya's is outward, Sansa becomes a rebel by knowledge, while Arya takes up arms. Sansa is the intellectual, Arya is the militant. Sansa is Sartre, Arya is Che.

And I believe people they accompany also mirror the same powers. Sansa escapes with Littlefinger, the schemer, Arya escapes with the Hound, the fighter. Littlefinger and the Hound are both fighting the system as well. Arya begins to be trained as an assassin, Sansa a politician. Arya is liberated when she runs away, Sansa when she is disillusioned and learns the truth.

Am I crazy?

[Ragnorak]

If you honestly want to compare and contrast Arya and Sansa the best way to do it would be a chapter by chapter reread. I'm not sure about the chapter count later in the series in terms of balancing the order or whether or not other sibling POVs would be more or less productive to include in such a reread (especially early on in GoT.)

My suspicion is that most people would be surprised at how much more there was to compare than to contrast the deeper you delve into the two characters. Loss of innocence would certainly be a productive theme and I suspect "protectors" would be another good one. Off the top of my head, Ned's beheading stands out. Both girls were there and both watched it, but Arya had Yoren as a protector to prevent her from actually seeing it. Arya has her wolf and Sansa doesn't, she has Sandor after he's learned important lessons from his time with Sansa, she has the Kindly Man compared to Sansa who has LF. It would make for a truly enlightening reread as long as the premise wasn't misguided-- which I suspect an Arya vs Sansa would be.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I like Arya more. Sansa did grow on me a lot and i do like her after her character development set in but i relate to Arya more. Sansa seems to be more about waiting to see how things pan out. This trait, i think will be important to her future situations and possible victories. Thats pretty cool but Arya's more proactive approach is one reason i relate to her. Arya doesnt just wait around, she wants to get shit done. Now. Im a lot like that myself so i can relate to that. Shes also got a vengeful streak and yeah...relate.

Its harder for me to relate to Sansa because her way of thinking isnt at all like mine. In AGoT, i found her rather vapid to be honest, but ACoK came along and she realized thats not a cool way of being. Sansa becomes very isolated and alone whereas Arya pals around with people and stuff. It feels to me that Sansa feels she cant go to anyone and there really isnt anyone for her to turn to. Arya seems to crave being around people. This is reflected with Nymeria when the wolf creates a new pack upon finding herself all by her onesie. That too, is something i relate to. Craving contact and needing people around me.

Sansa became the watcher later on. Now she is watching Littlefinger and learning his way of doing things. Its kinda interesting because Arya has also gone into this role with the House of Black and White. The Kindly Man teaches her how to be the watcher. It seems that theres actually quite a bit of similarity coming between them.

why does everything have to be a feminist debate? really guys...

[MostInterestingManWesteros]

I love both characters, Arya is my fav, but Sansa is top 10 fo sho. I dont understand all the Arya hate on this board she rocks.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I disagree with "vs"s too but I think comparing Sansa and Arya can be really educative because I believe they do form a symmetry. And I believe the question "why Arya ran away from KL but Sansa didn't" is really the most relevant question here, but not in the way the OP thinks it is. Let me show you how.

I think both characters represent growing up and becoming a rebel against the system. They both start as the members of aristocracy, which is a normal integrated part of the society. Then their family is thrown out of the system and they become victims, and then they both become rebels against the system. So, their journey is identical. The difference is, Sansa's rebellion is inward while Arya's is outward, Sansa becomes a rebel by knowledge, while Arya takes up arms. Sansa is the intellectual, Arya is the militant. Sansa is Sartre, Arya is Che.

And I believe people they accompany also mirror the same powers. Sansa escapes with Littlefinger, the schemer, Arya escapes with the Hound, the fighter. Littlefinger and the Hound are both fighting the system as well. Arya begins to be trained as an assassin, Sansa a politician. Arya is liberated when she runs away, Sansa when she is disillusioned and learns the truth.

Am I crazy?

You're absolutely not crazy, you're absolutely right. ;)

The point is that both girls stayed true to who they were, what they represented, their personalities. They're all about rebelling against the 'system' of Westeros, they both do that. However, if Sansa would do an escape like Arya, she wouldn't just be rebelling against the system; she would also betray herself, rebel against herself and forgo everything she represents. On the other hand, if Arya would stay in King's Landing and acting like Sansa did, she would, in her place, not just be rebelling against the system, she too would betray herself, rebel against herself and forgo everything she represents.

Edit: spelling

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I love both characters, Arya is my fav, but Sansa is top 10 fo sho. I dont understand all the Arya hate on this board she rocks.

Arya hate? I dare say she's in the top three of most favourite characters here. ;)

[SerStinger]

You're absolutely not crazy, you're absolutely right. ;)

The point is that both girls stayed true to who they were, what they represented, their personalities. They're all about rebelling against the 'system' of Westeros, they both do that. However, if Sansa would do an escape like Arya, she wouldn't just be rebelling against the system; she would also betray herself, rebel against herself and forgo everything she represents. On the other hand, if Arya would stay in King's Landing and acting like Sansa did, she would, in her place, not just be rebelling against the system, she too would betray herself, rebel against herself and forgo everything she represents.

Edit: spelling

Yes, I agree with this so much that I could have said it with the same wording.

[mcb]

Why do we have to pit female characters against each other? This is a disturbing trend in pop culture. Only one female is allowed to be exulted, you can never have two or more. Why does one have to be "better"?

Because no one would ever judge a male fictional character, obviously. And if we aren't willing to say one word of critique against Robb, Ned, Tyrion, Stannis, Jon, Edmure etc., it really leaves little to talk about. "Which one of the three dragons is the coolest?" That would be good for a dozen threads, tops, and then what?

Why pit female characters against each other, indeed.

[The Fallen]

What you're doing is even worse: blaming the victim. Marillion is a predator, and we learn that Sansa is not the first person he tried to attack. He succeeded with others and instead of having him punished, Lysa sent the girls away. I think it's reprehensible to claim that Sansa isn't as strong as Arya because she didn't "fight back" in the way you think Arya would have. Sansa made her unwillingness quite clear to Marillion.

I definitely am not trying to blame the victim. I probably should have prefaced my comment. But in earlier posts it was mentioned that there couldn't be a fair comparison of the two because their situations are so different. So I looked for a situation that would highlight how they would react to that particular situation. That scene was the first that came to mind. It was neither a knock on Sansa nor a "big-up" to Arya. It was meant to illustrate the difference between the two.

I'm not going to comment on the last line. Someone else can bite.

See above.

You are trying to fit square pegs in round holes, darling. Sansa is not "timid", she is subtle in her defiance. She couldn't openly defy Joffrey, the few times she does are when she cannot control herself, and lead to her being punished. Arya would have had a very bad time in KL if she hadn't been in the exact right place at the right time. Yoren rescued her from beatings and being chained up AT THE VERY LEAST.

To me Sansa's timidity is her inability to try to change her situation. It doesn't have to be her killing Joffrey. It can be small things that would slowly bring someone over to her side. Not everyone around her wants to do her harm. But the people who help her, like The Hound and Tyrion, do so of their own accord, not because Sansa facilitated it. Even Dontos comes to her.

More importantly,how would Sansa fight back? She has had little to no experience in fights(except with Arya) and Marillion could easily overpower her if he chose to.

It's not simply about physically fighting back. Arya would have done something, anything to change the situation for better (or worse).

Obviously her body would find a way to shut that whole thing down.

That's a good one.

[SerStinger]

Because no one would ever judge a male fictional character, obviously. And if we aren't willing to say one word of critique against Robb, Ned, Tyrion, Stannis, Jon, Edmure etc., it really leaves little to talk about. "Which of the three dragons is the coolest?" That would be good for a dozen threads, tops, and then what?

Why pit female characters against each other, indeed.

My own problem is not that it's about female characters, it would be equally fruitless about male characters too. I understand that we should have fun and harmless discussions as well, but asking "who's better Sansa or Arya" is bad because it simplifies two complex characters and the books deserve better,

[Sand Snake No. 9]

This would probably be a great thread if it didn't have any talk about that Sansa character. ;)

Have fun! I'm sitting this one out.

[lilenadheas]

I definitely am not trying to blame the victim. I probably should have prefaced my comment. But in earlier posts it was mentioned that there couldn't be a fair comparison of the two because their situations are so different. So I looked for a situation that would highlight how they would react to that particular situation. That scene was the first that came to mind. It was neither a knock on Sansa nor a "big-up" to Arya. It was meant to illustrate the difference between the two.

To me Sansa's timidity is her inability to try to change her situation. It doesn't have to be her killing Joffrey. It can be small things that would slowly bring someone over to her side. Not everyone around her wants to do her harm. But the people who help her, like The Hound and Tyrion, do so of their own accord, not because Sansa facilitated it. Even Dontos comes to her.

It's not simply about physically fighting back. Arya would have done something, anything to change the situation for better (or worse).

I think you just picked a bad example to be honest, I didn't think you were intentionally victim blaming. But I hope you see how it came off?

Also, we simply won't agree on Sansa's timidity, that is plain to see.

What I don't understand is why Sansa was supposed to facilitate help from others, where Arya is praised for getting out and doing everything on her own. Frankly, it's utter horseshit. Yoren strongarmed her out of KL, Gendry and J'aqan and the BwB and Sandor all serve as the "muscle" for her along the way. And she didn't ask them for help (and they all had their own reasons for helping her), in fact she is notoriously resistant to attempts to assist her. They all come to her.

EtA: oh, and Syrio. Arya is a badass, but she has a ridiculous amount of help along the way. compare that to the Hound and Tyrion, Sansa's own two viable options, and they are pretty fucking terrible. A member of the House Lannister, and a terrifying drunken weirdo.

[brashcandy]

I definitely am not trying to blame the victim. I probably should have prefaced my comment. But in earlier posts it was mentioned that there couldn't be a fair comparison of the two because their situations are so different. So I looked for a situation that would highlight how they would react to that particular situation. That scene was the first that came to mind. It was neither a knock on Sansa nor a "big-up" to Arya. It was meant to illustrate the difference between the two.

I'm sorry, but it was plain old insufferable victim blaming. You picked a situation where Sansa was close to being violated, and your point was that Arya in the same situation would somehow prevent herself from being raped whilst Sansa - by virtue of her "timidity" - could not. Your example illustrated nothing about Sansa's and Arya's differences, but does do a good job of highlighting how rape culture has taken the burden of women's violation off the shoulders of their attackers.

To me Sansa's timidity is her inability to try to change her situation. It doesn't have to be her killing Joffrey. It can be small things that would slowly bring someone over to her side. Not everyone around her wants to do her harm. But the people who help her, like The Hound and Tyrion, do so of their own accord, not because Sansa facilitated it. Even Dontos comes to her.

Wooo boy. So you don't recall the moment where she saves Dontos's life? Or touches the Hound in sympathy after hearing how he was burnt? I think that had a lot to do with forming bonds with those men. Listing Tyrion doesn't make sense to me. He helps her once when Joff was having her beaten since he has some decency and had power as Hand. Sansa might not have been able to transform her circumstances entirely, but she does do a lot to bring allies to her side, and to mitigate her suffering.

[Free Northman]

I think it utlimately comes down to which type of character a reader likes.

Some readers like the weepy, sensitive, docile, placid type of character that Sansa represents. Hell, some probably identify with her because 90% of 12 year old girls ARE like that.

Others prefer the powerful character that Arya represents. Powerful in the sense that she dominates every scene she is in with her force of personality.

Who is more realistic? Undoubtedly Sansa.

But do I want to experience a fictional world through the eyes of a normal, everyday character, or an through the eyes of an extraordinary character? Well, to me the answer is obvious. Real life is full of normal. I read fantasy to experience extraodinary.

[Grail King]

I'm not the one writing the story. I don't know how she should have escaped. But that doesn't change that it is obvious that she is not a very pro-active character.

Just try to imagine Sansa being in all the situations Arya was in. Reverse their situations. Ned decides she should have "dancing" lessons because he fears she may need it some day. He has Arya taking lessons on how to be a lady. The Kingsguard comes for Sansa and Syrio tells her to flee. She'd twist her pretty little ankle and fall and lay down and cry until the Kingsguard found her before she could even escape the castle into Flea Bottom. All throughout the books Arya has proven herself to be resourceful. Sansa has not.

I think she is pro active and resourceful, just not in a athletic swashbuckling way; she pleads for her dad's life in court, she stares down and on the verge of pushing Joff off the castle wall along with herself except she was stopped by Sandor, she defiantly looked at ( but did not see those heads) on the wall, she stared him down and to his face wishing her brother to give her Joffs head ( that took COURAGE! ), she saves Dontos by manipulating Joffery, she tryy to get the King to empathize with his people, she defied Tywin Lannister and Westeros as best she could by refusing to kneel for the Lannister cloak ( another FU to them ), at the holdfast she clamed the people, made sure Lancel was tended to and calmed Sandor down that he removed the knife from her throat. She was pro active in her escape even filled with fear she took a knife with her just in case, she was so good at it she kept the secret from : Cersei, Joffery, Tyrion,Varys, Tyrells, Sandor and though she didn't know he was pulling the strings ( remember he's been pulling everyones strings for over 15 years ) she kept mum to Baelish and what great secret is she keeping from him? a hairnet of serpents, and she's holding in the secrets he shares with her, of all the people in Westeros only one person knows of his manipulations that's Sansa, and if and when she finds out about how her dad truly met his end he will be toast.

Arya is more physically pro active but the end results are sending her on a darker road, was she right to defend Micah? hell yes, but in this case words should have worked better then physical attacking the Prince and if both Joff and Arya stopped as Sansa cried out for, I think Sansa could have talked Joffery into putting down the sword, but once Arya struck him it went out the window.

Arya's quick to react cost Micah his life but I put the blame on that to Joffery, Cersei, Robert and lastly Sandor who in my opinion could have told the lad to run back to Winterfell and just tell Cersei he lost him.

I have no real problem with Arya's pro active stance in Harrenhall, I just think the killing of the guard was unrealistic and her proactive stance with the NW singer in Bravous was cold, this is the one death I totally disagree on with Arya, I don't disagree with the stable boy in KL I just thought it was more knee jerk self preservation reaction of seeing her household killed where with Darrion she wasn't in Winterfell, she's not THE Lord of Winterfell, The North or even head of Bravous she made a judge jury decision on something out of her jurisdiction, this was Aemons or Samwell's call not Arya's.

Lastly her reaction (a naive one at that ) of running into the Twins would have got her and Sandor killed and we wouldn't have a thread on these two sisters who actually need each other more then they know.

As I said in another post both sisters are naive and the one person putting any sense into them is Sandor Clegane, in one sister he's brutally honest and telling her harsh truths, with the other he tries to rein in her rashness and he shows understanding in what rage she feels.

I don't see this as Sansa Vs Arya, I see it or hope to see it as two sisters who discover that together they are stronger and both get back to their Stark roots.

It's because I think Sansa arc is more realistic than Arya's that I like Sansa more, but I like them both ( along with all the Starks & Jon )

[Free Northman]

I'm sorry, but it was plain old insufferable victim blaming. You picked a situation where Sansa was close to being violated, and your point was that Arya in the same situation would somehow prevent herself from being raped whilst Sansa - by virtue of her "timidity" - could not. Your example illustrated nothing about Sansa's and Arya's differences, but does do a good job of highlighting how rape culture has taken the burden of women's violation off the shoulders of their attackers.

Wooo boy. So you don't recall the moment where she saves Dontos's life? Or touches the Hound in sympathy after hearing how he was burnt? I think that had a lot to do with forming bonds with those men. Listing Tyrion doesn't make sense to me. He helps her once when Joff was having her beaten since he has some decency and had power as Hand. Sansa might not have been able to transform her circumstances entirely, but she does do a lot to bring allies to her side, and to mitigate her suffering.

The question is, do I want to read a book about the Afghan woman who stood weeping while the Soviet troops burned her village down, or do I want to read a book about the one that threw herself defiantly in front of a Soviet tank in protest, thus sparking defiance in the rest of her village to fight back?

[brashcandy]

I think it utlimately comes down to which type of character a reader likes.

Some readers like the weepy, sensitive, docile, placid type of character that Sansa represents. Hell, some probably identify with her because 90% of 12 year old girls ARE like that.

Others prefer the powerful character that Arya represents. Powerful in the sense that she dominates every scene she is in with her force of personality.

Who is more realistic? Undoubtedly Sansa.

But do I want to experience a fictional world through the eyes of a normal, everyday character, or an through the eyes of an extraordinary character? Well, to me the answer is obvious. Real life is full of normal. I read fantasy to experience extraodinary.

Give me a break, Free Northman. Sansa is not docile and placid. This is a girl who wanted to throw Joffrey off the battlements in KL and was willing to sacrifice herself in the process. Both Arya and Sansa have forceful personalities, they just manifest in different ways. I think Sandor would be able to speak to that.

[lilenadheas]

I think it utlimately comes down to which type of character a reader likes.

Some readers like the weepy, sensitive, docile, placid type of character that Sansa represents. Hell, some probably identify with her because 90% of 12 year old girls ARE like that.

Others prefer the powerful character that Arya represents. Powerful in the sense that she dominates every scene she is in with her force of personality.

Who is more realistic? Undoubtedly Sansa.

But do I want to experience a fictional world through the eyes of a normal, everyday character, or an through the eyes of an extraordinary character? Well, to me the answer is obvious. Real life is full of normal. I read fantasy to experience extraodinary.

hmmm... I actually think the two characters are much more complex than that, and both are extraordinary characters.

Arya is incredibly sensitive. You don't have to be crying to be sensitive. She worries constantly about being deserving of the love she receives, from Ned, Cat and Robb. She takes everything Sansa says and does as a slight, because of her own insecurities, even when there is no malice whatsoever intended.

I would also disagree that Sansa isn't powerful. She is in an extremely powerless situation, but her personality, though gentler than Arya's, wins many to her side (as Grail King listed many of her acts of defiance above, I won't list them here). Sandor of course, and Tyrion who (if conspiracy is to be believed) emptied the chalice of wine at Joff's wedding, believing her to be the perpetrator. Power isn't all about your own actions, but how you influence others.

What i'm trying to say is that Sansa and Arya possess different types of power, both valid, both engaging.