Arya vs Sansa Thread

[Iron-born]

I also wouldn't want Sansa to become more like Arya or vice versa, what makes them special is that they are so different. If every female character was like Arya then that would be unrealistic and if every female character was like Sansa that would be unrealistic. I appreciate them both.

:agree: However, I'd like to see Arya in more Sansa-like situations (like having a forced marriage, I think Arya's reaction would be hilarious) and Sansa facing more Arya-like problems to see how each would react.

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, cause it's been a while since I read aGoT, but I thought that Sansa telling Cersei of Ned's plans only made Cersei move faster and prevent Arya and Sansa from leaving KL. I mean, Ned dug his own grave when he confronted Cersei himself, so Sansa's telling her would've made no real difference, right?

[Independent George]

The question is, do I want to read a book about the Afghan woman who stood weeping while the Soviet troops burned her village down, or do I want to read a book about the one that threw herself defiantly in front of a Soviet tank in protest, thus sparking defiance in the rest of her village to fight back?

Ironically, that's exactly the kind of thing Sansa would have said throughout most of GOT.

[Grail King]

Arya and Sansa are both complex characters that I can relate to. When I first started reading the novels in my mid-20's, I definite preferred Arya because she reminded me of...me as a child. I was a tomboy that vied to be the best of the best against the boys at their own games. I was defiant and skeptical of 'girly girls'.

But as I've grown older, I've gained alot of respect for those 'girly-girls'. They learned alot of lessons about acceptance and observation and biding thier time that I never learned as an impatient tomboy.

Both girls have had different paths that they have needed to follow. Sansa could never become what Arya has... and vice versa. Ultimately, I think both girls will do what is right, but thier paths getting there are different. If they ever get together again, they could be almost invincible together.

As I'm writing this, I'm suddenly thinking about Arianne and the Sand Snakes...I typically don't pay much attention to Dorne but I am suddenly wondering if thier relationships somehow follow the adventures of Arya and Sansa....must go back and reread.

:agree: :agree: I think they will meet.

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

The question is, do I want to read a book about the Afghan woman who stood weeping while the Soviet troops burned her village down, or do I want to read a book about the one that threw herself defiantly in front of a Soviet tank in protest, thus sparking defiance in the rest of her village to fight back?

I know which one I want to read.

[brashcandy]

You are the one misreading Sansa's character.

She was in a state of full blown depression when Joffrey was on the battlements. She was about to just end it all and try and take him with her, because she couldn't endure it all anymore.

Is this meant to somehow refute my claim? You think that being depressed or feeling upset somehow negates the act that one is willing to perform? Do you imagine that either Sansa or Arya were feeling happy-go-lucky after they saw their father executed and had to fear for their lives in the midst of depraved enemies?

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I think it utlimately comes down to which type of character a reader likes.

Some readers like the weepy, sensitive, docile, placid type of character that Sansa represents. Hell, some probably identify with her because 90% of 12 year old girls ARE like that.

Others prefer the powerful character that Arya represents. Powerful in the sense that she dominates every scene she is in with her force of personality.

Who is more realistic? Undoubtedly Sansa.

But do I want to experience a fictional world through the eyes of a normal, everyday character, or an through the eyes of an extraordinary character? Well, to me the answer is obvious. Real life is full of normal. I read fantasy to experience extraodinary.

You clearly favor Arya, that's plain to see. :) However, it's quite easy to think in black vs. white; Sansa vs. Arya; girly girl vs. tomboy; normal vs. extraordinary. But by describing Sansa like that you are, in my opinion being a little bit too arrogant. It seems as if you're demeaning everyone who likes Sansa.

The question is, do I want to read a book about the Afghan woman who stood weeping while the Soviet troops burned her village down, or do I want to read a book about the one that threw herself defiantly in front of a Soviet tank in protest, thus sparking defiance in the rest of her village to fight back?

I want to read about characters who stay true to themselves, so I'd say both. That Afghan woman who stood weeping, who knows what she's going to do once she does fight back. ;)

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] Cool it. If you cannot have a civil conversation, then don't participate. If you show up in a thread just to troll, then leave. No further warnings will be issued. [/mod]

[SerStinger]

The question is, do I want to read a book about the Afghan woman who stood weeping while the Soviet troops burned her village down, or do I want to read a book about the one that threw herself defiantly in front of a Soviet tank in protest, thus sparking defiance in the rest of her village to fight back?

But what about an Afghan woman who grows intellectually, learns how the world really works, and changes her worldview?

Sansa doesn't only weep, she changes, but mentally.

[brashcandy]

Indeed it does. Because for a depressed person, ending your life is no big sacrifice. In fact, it is the easier way out.

This is the most nonsensical thing I've read in a while. Being depressed and being suicidal are two completely different things. Nearly everyone in the Stark family was depressed after what happened to Ned, but it has no bearing on the fact that they were willing to act - Robb going to war, Sansa's wanting to kill Joffrey etc etc.

[lilenadheas]

Depressed does not equal suicidal.

[Free Northman]

Well, seeing as my posts have been removed, I will take the hint and rather withdraw from this debate.

Have at it without me, folks. Seems like the Sansa camp has support from a higher power.

[Stark Avengers]

Well both characters have evolved a lot since Book 1. But also it's important to remember that both characters are very different, their goals for example. Sansa off to Kings Landing...you know just to become Queen of Westeros. And Arya leaving her life and brothers behind. The purging of the Starks in Book 1 basically put them in incredibly different situations. Both are still alive and Sansa/Alayne has definitely become a lot more interesting POV.

Remember Sansa had Joffrey and Cersei to deal with as well as the intrigue of Kings Landing. She's now Alayne, hopefully soon to be Sansa Stark married to an Arryn.

Who is Arya? She is no-one

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Well both characters have evolved a lot since Book 1. But also it's important to remember that both characters are very different, their goals for example. Sansa off to Kings Landing...you know just to become Queen of Westeros. And Arya leaving her life and brothers behind. The purging of the Starks in Book 1 basically put them in incredibly different situations. Both are still alive and Sansa/Alayne has definitely become a lot more interesting POV.

Remember Sansa had Joffrey and Cersei to deal with as well as the intrigue of Kings Landing. She's now Alayne, hopefully soon to be Sansa Stark married to an Arryn.

Who is Arya? She is no-one

They are Starks of Winterfell. Needle is buried in Braavos, Arya could never not be a Stark not even when she wanted to. Arya and Sansa and the other Starks are all about revenge.

It would be quite boring if all Stark children were like Arya, wouldn't it? Same goes for if they were all like Bran, Sansa or Rickon. They are all different, but their bond never breaks. They're Starks.

[WitchyBex]

Because no one would ever judge a male fictional character, obviously. And if we aren't willing to say one word of critique against Robb, Ned, Tyrion, Stannis, Jon, Edmure etc., it really leaves little to talk about. "Which one of the three dragons is the coolest?" That would be good for a dozen threads, tops, and then what?

Really? I have arguments against everyone of those characters. This thread is about Sansa and Arya--and there is no 'vs'. They are totally separate characters. I am a woman and I really resent these die-hard feminist threads. The appealing thing about GRRMs writing is that he shows women and men at very different stages in thier lives and thought processes.

I am fed up with almost every thread regarding women devolving into rape. We are talking about two sisters here, only one of which has had to potentially avoid it. Like it or not, avoiding a predatory male is part of the female experience as one grows older. It does not mean that every learning experience that a young woman haves automatically leads to rape. That is why we have society--to teach us right from wrong and how to avoid the pitfalls of growing up.

[Newstar]

To make the joke that I always make in Arya vs. Sansa threads--and sometimes I get the sense that every ASOIAF discussion thread on every board on the Internet ultimately winds up being an Arya vs. Sansa thread--THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE.

The problem is that Arya vs. Sansa isn't really a fair fight because of Sansa's two big screwups in AGOT (Lady, Cersei). A lot of ASOIAF fans wrote Sansa off forever after that, and even though she was a young girl who didn't know any better and was torn between conflicting loyalties, blah blah blah...I kind of get where those fans are coming from. It doesn't help that Arya made the "right" call in both cases (intervening to save Mycah/telling the truth, obeying her father). So Sansa supporters are already starting off at a disadvantage in any Arya vs. Sansa argument, because the card that is always played in these arguments is that Sansa went against her family for love/ambition, twice. It's not the worst thing that anyone's done in these books by a country mile, but Arya, for her many moral lapses and her current one-way path into oblivion, has never gone against her family.

In Sansa's defence, though, most of her decisions after the two big screwups (or, as more charitable posters might put it, "errors in judgment") in AGOT were the right ones. Don't antagonize Joffrey. Accept Dontos escape plot. Refuse to run with the Hound. Choose Tyrell marriage plot over Dontos escape plot. Choose marriage to Tyrion over marriage to Lancel. Choose Dontos escape plot over trusting Tyrion with safety (especially since Tyrion had shown he couldn't protect her from Joffrey after ACOK). Escape from King's Landing. Go along with Littlefinger, at least for the interim, in the absence of other viable options.

If Arya and Sansa are ever in the same room ever again--doubtful--and can work out their issues--also doubtful--and both survive the series--extremely doubtful--I love the idea of them working together as a team. If they do have a relationship again, I hope they can avoid the fate of Tyrion and Cersei, who could have conquered the world if they could have only gotten along for 30 seconds.

Another one is when she refuses to kneel for Tyrion. again instead for being praised to actually standing up for herself against the lannisters she is called a big meanie for hurting poor Tyrion.

It doesn't read like a glorious moment of defiance, though. It reads like a moment of bratty petulance at Tyrion's expense, even under the terrible circumstances. It reads like a crappy thing to do, and Sansa knows it's a crappy thing to do, which is why she feels ashamed. Sansa is not a character prone to feeling guilt or shame in her POVs for much of anything. which is probably another reason why a lot of ASOIAF fans don't care for her (even if Arya doesn't wallow in guilt for her misdeeds either). However, she feels instantly ashamed after initially refusing to kneel. Sansa, who doesn't feel guilty about much of anything, feels guilty about shaming Tyrion, and thus most readers' takeaway from that incident seems to be not "Rock on with your bad self, Sansa!" but "...Wow, refusing to kneel for Tyrion was mean." Sansa would seem to agree with them.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Really? I have arguments against everyone of those characters. This thread is about Sansa and Arya--and there is no 'vs'. They are totally separate characters. I am a woman and I really resent these die-hard feminist threads. The appealing thing about GRRMs writing is that he shows women and men at very different stages in thier lives and thought processes.

I am quite sure he was being sarcastic there, since Jon for example is highly criticized. The same goes for every one of them, actually. Robb for marrying Jeyne, Ned for telling Cersei, Tyrion for ADWD mainly, Stannis for being stern and single-minded, Jon for being 'stupid' and boring and Edmure for messing Robbs plans up, amongst other things.

[Kittykatknits]

The other thing that really annoys me about Sansa is her timidity. I actually enjoyed the few moments when she would get bold and make fun of Joffrey, except he was too dumb to realize it. It would crack me up. And also when she said that maybe Robb would bring her Joffrey's head, but those moments are few and far between. I do think that Sansa will end up using Littlefinger for her own benefit and ultimately turn the tables on him.

You must have missed the part where she thinks about the bruises all over her body, in various stages of fading. Yeah, that's what happened when she stood up to Joffrey. Also, I think you missed her attempt to kill him, her standing up and imminent beating of Dontos, her push to get him to toss coins to the crowd, her attempt to manipulate him to fight in the vanguard during the BBW, her insulting him when she talks about him fighting a duel with her brother, and her standing up to him a couple different times while comforting Tommen. Oh, and the knife she took with her to the godswood the first time. Or when she walked out of the sept in front of everyone when it came time to pray for Joffrey. Big difference between timid and knowing when to shut up....

Am I crazy?

No, that was well stated. There is quite a bit of symmetry in their two story lines. It's disappointing that more readers don't see it.

I love both characters, Arya is my fav, but Sansa is top 10 fo sho. I dont understand all the Arya hate on this board she rocks.

Arya hate? I'm guessing you haven't seen the polls that show her consistently as one of the top five most popular characters.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

So what is exactly is sansa being accused of? For not being active? Ironically enough what sansa is most hated for actually is being active. When sansa spills the beans to cersei not even one person says: "Sure Sansa did wrong, but Hey she was at least being active", instead we have people hating her guts because she betrayed Ned (interestingly enough Ned betrayed her) and commited high treason. Another one is when she refuses to kneel for Tyrion. again instead for being praised to actually standing up for herself against the lannisters she is called a big meanie for hurting poor Tyrion. Sansa has to be active, but when she is Sansa is bashed for it. apparently Sansa will never do anything good

[Florina Laufeyson]

Really? I have arguments against everyone of those characters. This thread is about Sansa and Arya--and there is no 'vs'. They are totally separate characters. I am a woman and I really resent these die-hard feminist threads. The appealing thing about GRRMs writing is that he shows women and men at very different stages in thier lives and thought processes.

I am fed up with almost every thread regarding women devolving into rape. We are talking about two sisters here, only one of which has had to potentially avoid it. Like it or not, avoiding a predatory male is part of the female experience as one grows older. It does not mean that every learning experience that a young woman haves automatically leads to rape. That is why we have society--to teach us right from wrong and how to avoid the pitfalls of growing up.

Im out of likes but i wanted to point out this is exactly how i feel. Especially the bolded part.

[SerStinger]

So what is exactly is sansa being accused of? For not being active? Ironically enough what sansa is most hated for actually is being active. When sansa spills the beans to cersei not even one person says: "Sure Sansa did wrong, but Hey she was at least being active", instead we have people hating her guts because she betrayed Ned (interestingly enough Ned betrayed her) and commited high treason. Another one is when she refuses to kneel for Tyrion. again instead for being praised to actually standing up for herself against the lannisters she is called a big meanie for hurting poor Tyrion. Sansa has to be active, but when she is Sansa is bashed for it. apparently Sansa will never do anything good

Wait.... wait.... stop right there..... how did Ned betray Sansa?

No, that was well stated. There is quite a bit of symmetry in their two story lines. It's disappointing that more readers don't see it.

Have you noticed that recently we agree a lot? It makes me feel good for some reason :P