Dragon in Winterfell - What does this mean?

[redriver]

I doubt that science bit can apply here, but we cannot rule it out. GRRM was sci-fi before fantasy.

We can take the science out of it.Gendry and Arya's description of the comet as a sword is sufficiently like a winged snake for me.The hilt represents the wings.

And the comet could simply have disappeared behind Winterfell.

[CJDTrismegistus]

During the early days of Bran warging Summer,the boy is not always in control.Jojen has to urge him to take control.

I would say when Bran is dominant you get more human descriptions and the opposite when Summer is the boss.

I'm not exactly sure when that quote was as I wasn't the one who quoted it, but if it was an earlier chapter then Bran is dreaming and not in control. The first instance we have of Bran intruding into Summer's thoughts IIRC is during Theon's taking of Winterfell when he urges Summer towards the Sentinel Tree. And I'm fairly sure that in this instance (and further instances.) Bran's thoughts are italicised to indicate it's not the wolf's thought.

The dragon incident happens after the godswood, so you'd think he'd be more in control? When Bran sees the dragon he's actually trying to warg as per Jojen's instructions, yet when he's in the Godswood he's just experiencing a "wolf dream" as he calls it. So, again, why the description of the comet as a comet earlier in the wolf dream and then as a snake in the later warging when Bran had more control?

[CJDTrismegistus]

We can take the science out of it.Gendry and Arya's description of the comet as a sword is sufficiently like a winged snake for me.The hilt represents the wings.

And the comet could simply have disappeared behind Winterfell.

Arya's and Gendry's interpretation is of the blade only, not the hilt. Gendry likens the comet to a blade out of the furness of a forge and Arya likens it to how Ice's blade wouldl've looked with her father's blood on it.

[protar]

The dragon incident happens after the godswood, so you'd think he'd be more in control? When Bran sees the dragon he's actually trying to warg as per Jojen's instructions, yet when he's in the Godswood he's just experiencing a "wolf dream" as he calls it. So, again, why the description of the comet as a comet earlier in the wolf dream and then as a snake in the later warging when Bran had more control?

I think you may have misunderstood. I wasn't saying that he's seeing the comet as a dragon. I'm agreeing with you that he saw an actual dragon and I cited your example of Summer seeing the comet in the Godswood and referencing it as such. What I was saying was that the incident you quoted was entirely from Summer's POV and yet he still calls the comet a comet. So it makes no sense to then describe it more abstractly later. Again, agreeing with you.

[CJDTrismegistus]

I'm not exactly sure when that quote was as I wasn't the one who quoted it, but if it was an earlier chapter then Bran is dreaming and not in control. The first instance we have of Bran intruding into Summer's thoughts IIRC is during Theon's taking of Winterfell when he urges Summer towards the Sentinel Tree. And I'm fairly sure that in this instance (and further instances.) Bran's thoughts are italicised to indicate it's not the wolf's thought.

In the text where Bran is warged into Summer the italics do represent Bran's thoughts - "I am walking, he thought, exulting"

The bit with the mention of the comet is not italicised - "It was dark aongst the trees, but the comet lit his way, and his feet were sure." These are Summer's thoughts.

[CJDTrismegistus]

I think you may have misunderstood. I wasn't saying that he's seeing the comet as a dragon. I'm agreeing with you that he saw an actual dragon and I cited your example of Summer seeing the comet in the Godswood and referencing it as such. What I was saying was that the incident you quoted was entirely from Summer's POV and yet he still calls the comet a comet. So it makes no sense to then describe it more abstractly later. Again, agreeing with you.

Apologies, I was trying to link the two comments together and got muddled! :)

[redriver]

Can someone point me to this part about the comet in the godswood.Some other event in the chapter would help.Thanks

[protar]

In the text where Bran is warged into Summer the italics do represent Bran's thoughts - "I am walking, he thought, exulting"

The bit with the mention of the comet is not italicised - "It was dark aongst the trees, but the comet lit his way, and his feet were sure." These are Summer's thoughts.

Well that's settled then. Summer knows what a comet is and has no reason to refer to it as a dragon later.

[CJDTrismegistus]

Can someone point me to this part about the comet in the godswood.Some other event in the chapter would help.Thanks

It's after the bit where the Freys and Rickon are playing the game in the Godswood where Shaggydog attacks Little Walder. Maester Luwin gives Bran a potion so that he can have a dreamless sleep.......it doesn't work. ;)

[7V3N]

We can take the science out of it.Gendry and Arya's description of the comet as a sword is sufficiently like a winged snake for me.The hilt represents the wings.

And the comet could simply have disappeared behind Winterfell.

Ok, a direwolf is intelligent enough to understand object permanence.

[redriver]

It's after the bit where the Freys and Rickon are playing the game in the Godswood where Shaggydog attacks Little Walder. Maester Luwin gives Bran a potion so that he can have a dreamless sleep.......it doesn't work. ;)

Found it,thanks.But I'm afraid this is clearly Bran having a wolf dream and being completely aware of it.

"Yet when the darkness closed over him,he found himself in the godswood,moving silently beneath green-grey sentinels and gnarled oaks as old as time."I am walking"he thought,exulting.Part of him knew it was only a dream..........

"It was dark among the trees,but the comet lit his way,and his feet were sure........It was a good feeling"

Bran is clearly aware here and it's his thoughts and descriptions we are following.

The Bran italicized,Summer not, is simply not the case.

[CJDTrismegistus]

Found it,thanks.But I'm afraid this is clearly Bran having a wolf dream and being completely aware of it.

"Yet when the darkness closed over him,he found himself in the godswood,moving silently beneath green-grey sentinels and gnarled oaks as old as time."I am walking"he thought,exulting.Part of him knew it was only a dream..........

"It was dark among the trees,but the comet lit his way,and his feet were sure........It was a good feeling"

Bran is clearly aware here and it's his thoughts and descriptions we are following.

The Bran italicized,Summer not, is simply not the case.

So, what - you're saying that he wasn't aware when he was seeing Winterfell burning? Doesn't make any sense.

The italics are the Bran thoughts that Summer wouldn't necessarily think himself, such as Meera's name and the fact that he isn't a cripple. The descriptions are still Summer's.

[redriver]

So, what - you're saying that he wasn't aware when he was seeing Winterfell burning? Doesn't make any sense.

The italics are the Bran thoughts that Summer wouldn't necessarily think himself, such as Meera's name and the fact that he isn't a cripple. The descriptions are still Summer's.

That's exactly what I'm saying.Bran was warging Summer for three days when he saw Winterfell burn.He even thought he had eaten.Jojen had to remind him that Summer ate,not him."Take care Bran,remember who you are".

I'm beginning to suspect trolling here.

[CJDTrismegistus]

It was a dragon not a troll!!

:lol:

[CJDTrismegistus]

That's exactly what I'm saying.Bran was warging Summer for three days when he saw Winterfell burn.He even thought he had eaten.Jojen had to remind him that Summer ate,not him."Take care Bran,remember who you are".

I'm beginning to suspect trolling here.

Seriously though, I'm not trolling(actually, I just had to look trolling up to see what it actually meant!), so I apologise if it seems that way. I just think that all the Summer moments, whether Bran is wolf dreaming or warging, are all in chapters that are Bran's and so therefore all the events occuring in them are from Bran's POV. He may get a bit carried away with being the wolf and forgetting the boy but he's not really that comfortable with being the boy due to being a cripple. Just because he's enjoying being in a wolf doesn't mean he wouldn't recognize a comet from a dragon.

[Khal GoGo]

Besides from whether it was metaphorical or literal etc, what would be the point of another dragon? The Dragon has 3 heads, that's a big saying in ASOIAF. There's also the 3 heroes (who may or may not be the same person) in AA, the Prince that was Promised and the Last Hero. Unless something happens to one of Daenarys' dragons I can't see a fourth one being introduced.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Besides from whether it was metaphorical or literal etc, what would be the point of another dragon? The Dragon has 3 heads, that's a big saying in ASOIAF. There's also the 3 heroes (who may or may not be the same person) in AA, the Prince that was Promised and the Last Hero. Unless something happens to one of Daenarys' dragons I can't see a fourth one being introduced.

Personally, I'd love it if all this 'dragon has 3 heads' business turned out to be a red herring.

[Tagganaro]

While I find some of the points made about Summer seeing an actual dragon pretty compelling, I'm still very hung up on a number of things:

1) Why Bran has never mentioned it again- We've debated this point several times, and I still feel like we'll just have to agree to disagree. Bran's first "green dream" is that instance with the heart of winter. Bran is completely inexperienced in that stuff and still has no idea if what he's seeing is real, and if it is, what exactly he is seeing. I don't see those same issues here- Bran is more experienced with warging at this point, he would know for a fact that Summer actually saw a dragon...I just don't see the reason why this would never be mentioned again by Bran.

2) How is this dragon never seen or never even referenced again in 3 books- I understand the North is a humongous place where a creature like this could conceivably disappear into. What I don't understand is why GRRM would give us this reference in ACOK, and then not even once give us a hint of its existence ever again. All it would take is a hint: Something like "Jon saw some trees bearing odd burn marks and claw scratches" or "Theon overheard some of the lords talking about some creature being in the woods eating the remaining food supply" or anything along those lines.

Not only do we have none of that, but we have an instance where it'd certainly be likely that the dragon would be spotted at least once by someone- And that is of course when the dragon leaves Winterfell for the first time. The Dragon roars fire (apparently), which would most likely be both loud and extremely illuminating and visual. We know of the existence of at least 2 people- Wex and Luwin who would most likely see this or hear this. We can probably safely speculate that there were a number of more men hanging around WF after the sack, and likewise that WF as a major stronghold and population center in the North would have a number of villages within a few miles radius (guessing, I have no idea, but seems logical to me to assume this). And not one of these villages bore someone who would see this, and start rumors?

As I've said, this isn't to say it's impossible that there is a dragon. Just unlikely to me.

3)To answer an earlier compelling post about how Summer could see nothing except an actual dragon that would make sense to describe it as such- Yes, this is a good point. But I think it's been shown pretty conclusively that what Summer sees can certainly be open to interpretation in a number of instances that have been mentioned. Why use this type of imagery here if it's not an actual dragon? Well there's a number of possibilities. One might be to look at prophetic connotations- That's not to say that warging and green seeing are being mixed here for the first time, but to look at it as GRRM using foreshadowing of some sort that there might be a dragon to be woken out of stone in WF or something along those lines.

Two- While the narrator does refer to the comet as such, there'd be no reason for Summer to really conceive of that. I think that might be more 3rd person narrator (or at least semi as the way GRRM uses it) and not Summer's own actual thoughts. Similarly, if Summer is able to understand what a "comet" is, than why would he not understand what a "dragon" is and describe it as a winged snake? Both are presumably objects that he has no experience having seen before and would have no knowledge of beforehand, only seeing these things for the first time. But we probably could look at that passage more carefully to dissect it further to better understand it.

Three-I'm still hung up about how the winged snake is described. It doesn't really match well with it flying away, it seems more like it's there one second and gone the next. This would make perfect sense with smoke/fire of some sort, or a disintegrating comet or shooting star or something like that, but becomes more troublesome with an actual dragon flying away from the scene.

Anyway, forgive me for the long post and I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting about. Just wanted to say it's been a fun thread and I enjoy this discussion on both sides. Some very interesting stuff being pointed out..

[CJDTrismegistus]

Danny has Drogon, her three heads will need dragons of their own. 4 dragons works for me......actually 40 dragons works for me - bring on the Asshai dragons and we can have a huge dragon vs Others battle! ;)

[redriver]

Danny has Drogon, her three heads will need dragons of their own. 4 dragons works for me......actually 40 dragons works for me - bring on the Asshai dragons and we can have a huge dragon vs Others battle! ;)

Which is why I think you are basing your ideas in this thread on what you want to see,and interpreting the text in that light.